Ifr logging time

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Fabio, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. Fabio

    Fabio Filing Flight Plan

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    hello
    I am vfr pilot building time for my ifr training.
    One question that I have if I fly into IMC with a ifr rated pilot, can I fly left seat and he’s my safety pilot or he has to be a CFII to be sitting right seat while in IMC?
    Thanks for the help.
     
  2. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Legally speaking you can fly in whatever you seat you want. In your scenario the other pilot MUST be IFR rated and current, MUST be the PIC, and MUST be the pilot who accepts the clearance. He does not need to be a CFII. You get to log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls, and the other pilot ONLY logs the time while you are under the hood - but NOT in actual if you take the hood off.

    However unless you have flown with a CFII for at least 15 hours or so, I would suggest not doing this as you might develop bad habits. My suggestion...pay a CFII for the whole 40 hours of instrument time. It will make you a better IFR pilot, and is another $700 bucks (20 hours @ $35/hr) really that much in the whole scheme of things?
     
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  3. genna

    genna Cleared for Takeoff

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    What @EdFred said. Adding that the other pilot does not need to be CFII
     
  4. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    What is CFII is sitting next to me and I accept the clearance ? Asking for a friend
     
  5. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    I agree with @EdFred
    I would add one little piece of advice. Make sure your IFR rated and current safety pilot is well versed in your avionics if you plan on doing some IMC. a friend of mine got himself in a pickle safety piloting for another friend, had a weird GPS that he was not familiar with but assumed the owner of the plane was...turned out wasn’t. Could have been a mess.
     
  6. chemgeek

    chemgeek Cleared for Takeoff

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    "Accumulating" IMC time before learning pitch+power=performance flying technique is likely to be wasted time toward the IR. I agree with the many comments above. If you really want to get started on instrument flying, hook up with a CFII and start learning the basic instrument flying skills. Without those basic skills, everything else is difficult to accomplish to the required standards.
     
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  7. dmcummins

    dmcummins Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Where do I find a cfii for $35 an hour?
     
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  8. ArnoldPalmer

    ArnoldPalmer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Northern MN. I did most of mine at 40 an hour about 2 years ago. Dude charged me 35 an hour for ground.



    Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
     
  9. dmcummins

    dmcummins Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I was paying $60, both in MO and FL. I was using my own plane. The guy in MO would nock off a little if you rented his, not sure about the guy in FL.

    Maybe I should shop around a little.
     
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  10. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I only charge 25/hr. 35 for IR once I do the CFII ride which Ive been putting off.
     
  11. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    $35 is also what my finish-up CFII charged as I recall. The difference seems to rest mainly on whether the CFII is teaching as a sideline, to give back to the pilot community, or is trying to make a living off of it. My first CFII had a rate of $60/hr for instrument students, discounted to $50 for club members. But that was his livelihood.
     
  12. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Mine is $45 rt now, independent CFII. Local schools charge $80, another independent guy charges $70
     
  13. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is all assuming that some buddy is willing to risk his ticket and let you fly into IMC.
     
  14. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, I just do it as a side gig to get people up in the air.
     
  15. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Seems obvious, no?
     
  16. alfadog

    alfadog Final Approach

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    Paid $40 per hour for a very very excellent independent instructor to finish up my IR last year. This was in South Florida, KLNA. I think the going rate for Independents there is $40.
     
  17. coma24

    coma24 Line Up and Wait

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    You're stating that as a fact. That's not necessarily true. I self-studied for my instrument training, went for 2 flights with a CFII after which he said, "go fly with a safety pilot instead, call me when you need to get 15 hours with me..."

    I learned almost nothing during the IFR training that I didn't know before I started. My radio work was significantly better than the CFII's (picked up IFR clearance on the phone on our very first flight, including release/void times). My knowledge of the rules regarding approach clearances and vectors for approaches were stronger from the outset. He wasn't very comfortable flying on an IFR flight plan, stating that he normally preferred to give vectors himself and not bother with getting a clearance. Small wonder that so many instrument pilots have very little comfort with flying in the system after they get their ticket. I'm glad I did it the way I did along with MANY other pilots who I know for whom the IFR training was a formality.

    I'm sure there are some great CFII's out there, and that your advice might hold true for pilots who have not self-studied ahead of time...but do not assume it to be true for all cases.
     
  18. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well, yeah. Get a **** instructor, get **** instruction. I think that's common knowledge. Didn't think I needed to qualify that the CFII needs to be competent with my statement.
     
  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Who is the pilot in command? Doesn’t matter who is talking on the radio and writing things down. I’m not talking about who is or isn’t ‘logging’ PIC time. Who is the the pilot in command?
     
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  20. coma24

    coma24 Line Up and Wait

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    My point stands. Even I had a more confident CFII, I don't see how it would've changed much. You said instrument students should fly the whole 40 hours with a CFII. I don't think that statement is always true, regardless of how good the instructor is.
     
  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    So you're saying since you haven't seen the difference, it must not exist?
     
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  22. coma24

    coma24 Line Up and Wait

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    Well, you could fly with an instructor for 300 hours instead of 40....would that be better, too? Maybe make it 1500 just to be safe?

    I'm simply challenging the assertion that pilots should, by default, ignore the option of building time with other pilots and instead do all 40 hours with a CFII. You don't necessarily need 40 hours with a CFII to be a competent instrument pilot, PARTICUARLY when there is no guarantee that your CFII is a fountain of knowledge.
     
  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    So provide facts or data that challenge the assertion. You've said, "I don't see how it would be better," and told us about the ignorance of your instructor, but have not provided any reasoning beyond ignorance (yours and your instructor's) to defend your challenge.
     
  24. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Thing is, you had an instructor who was at the very least not the cream of the crop, and you're basing your evaluation of yourself on your own opinion. A good instrument instructor might not hold you in the regard you hold yourself.
     
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  25. coma24

    coma24 Line Up and Wait

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    I wasn't trying to be controversial, but evidently this has hit a nerve. Apologies that this is a bit of a long post, there's a few things to walk through.

    To be clear, this isn't about me personally, or any abilities I may or may not have. I'm not delusional enough to think I'm anything special. As I said, this experience has been echoed by many others who took the same path with their preparation and training, which took years before the formal IFR training, btw, I don't think that was obvious from my previous post.

    The only objective measures, I suppose, are whether I was able to pass the instrument check ride, and the fact that I'm still alive many hundred hours later, without any pilot deviations. I also went for the check ride in the minimum legal time. Anectodtally, the DPE stated that the ride had some elements that she wasn't used to seeing. Her specific comment was that the SA and comms were what she'd expect on an ATP ride (she was a female 747 captain, the first in the country from what I recall), and she was curious after the ride how I had done my training.

    So, I'm struggling to understand how I would've been, definitively and objectively better served by flying those 40 hours with a CFII instead of the 15 that we did instead. Might I have picked up a tip or two from the right person? Quite possibly. Again, though, who is to say that 40 hours is enough, then? When it enough training enough?

    On the 'against' side for the traditional "40 hours in the plane with the instructor" approach, I see many examples of pilots who slog through their IFR training the traditional way (foggles, unhealthy obsession with approaches to mins) with minimal experience of flying in the system (instead, their instructor plays the role of ATC, issues faux IFR clearances (poorly, btw), etc). They pass their checkride but have little confidence of flying in the system. They don't file again after getting their ticket....become rusty. 6 months passes...then another 6 month passes. Now they need (and aren't prepared for) an IPC. I'm not talking about knowing one or two of these guys, it's probably close to a hundred that I've met at various tradeshows/conferences at this point.

    Again, keep in mind, this has nothing to do with me. What I did has been done by many others. I'm simply stating that there are several ways of learning the skills required to fly IFR competently. It is not necessarily the case that more time with a CFII will make you a better instrument pilot. At the very least, hopefully we can agree that there is diminishing ROI. If not, then so be it. People can read the thread and decide what is best for them.

    I would argue that it takes a certain amount of time to become a safe instrument pilot. That is, it requires time flying in the system (or a a high fidelity simulation thereof), as well as time to debrief and process. There's no getting around it, IMO. My point is that with sufficient preparation, I don't see why you need 40 hours with a CFII.

    I would also point you to the fact that the FAA allows for the case of 40 hours of instrument time with only 15 hours with a CFII. The last few posts claim that it's always objectively better to change the 15 to 40, assuming there is a "good" CFII (whatever that equates to), I'm simply complying with the regulation.

    My final thought is that whatever additonal benefit I would've had from a "good" CFII would've likely been realized in the 15 hours of working with them, rather than it being saved for a random portion of the remaining 25. Also, if the instructor really felt that there was benefit in flying together for 40 hours, he would've recommended it.
     
  26. coma24

    coma24 Line Up and Wait

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    Did 3 BFR's with 3 different Master CFI's since the ride, specifically focusing on IFR procedures. While we had a good time, they didn't have anything substantial to add. Some of them walked away with a newfound appreciation of DTK, TRK and XTK on the GPS instead of just relying on a needle. We talked about different ways of doing different things, but it was largely subjective, and all of which I'd considered in the past. EDIT: Actually not true, I've learned a couple of practical tips from Jeff Van West as a result of working with him on some projects, but they were related to short field, max performance ops from non-paved airports, a pretty niche area, not really related to IFR training.

    I don't hold myself in any specific regard. I'm aware that I have more experience than a private pilot or a new instrument student (christ I hope so at this point) and I'm keenly aware that I have way less experience than about a bajillion other pilots. I'm always looking for ways to fly safer, more efficiently in terms of workload and looking for the best ways to get the most out of what my airplane's avionics can deliver (just upgraded to WAAS recently, so I'm eager to get into LP and LPV approaches which have been purely theoretical for me so far).
     
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  27. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    During your time with the safety pilot, how many different "gotcha" scenarios did the safety pilot present that made you need to alter your intentions on the fly? How many did your instructor do in the 15 hours? I got a whole bunch of stuff thrown at me with that instructor that went beyond (at the time) the PTS that I wouldn't have if he only had 15 hours with me. We ran through all sorts of "what ifs" and "this just happened." I don't know if he called ahead or not (pretty sure he may have) but even ATC gave me a "we just had (simulated) RADAR failure, we're going to need reporting points and times" because we were on an IFR flight plan.

    How much of that happened with the safety pilot?
     
  28. coma24

    coma24 Line Up and Wait

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    0% of that happened with a safety pilot, but all of that and more happened in the prep leading up to the formal training, and then some of it happened again with the CFII within those 15 hours.

    Just as well, because years later, I did have an engine failure at 11k in IMC (got it back at 7500ft or so), and a while after that, a separate failure at 3k in IMC, got it back at 1700ft. Vacuum failure (VMC on an IFR flight plan), and alternator failure, too (these were spread out, thankfully, or it would've been quite a day).

    Have done the diversion thing quite a few times since getting the ticket, one required the construction of Plan D on the fly when Plans A, B and C all failed in epic fashion. Plan D was to land at Teterboro.

    Your point is well-taken, though, if a student had zero prep beyond the 3 hours of hood time from the PPL, I could see that it would be a struggle to get it done in 15 hours of dual instruction. My point stands from the previous long post, though. If we agree that it takes quite a bit of time and exposure to flying in the system to become proficient. Much of that time can be amassed without a CFII, and then use the CFII time wisely to verify that everything is in place.

    There's an instructor named Al Waterloo, I think he's working with Cirrus now, but he used to LOVE when students arrived having prepped for their training in this manner. They'd use the time they had to go fly a bunch of really long XC's to a wide variety of airports to build a body of experience that most people rarely get in their IFR training, and, of course, he'd check for bad habits that might have been acquired along the way.

    To that point, when I did show up for my first day of training (I actually ended up with two different instructors as the first was in a car accident and had to stop flying for quite a long time), I gave the guy some background and said, "I hope that I've built a body of knowledge that will be useful here, but it's all theoretical thus far, none of it's been vetted. I'm totally open to the fact that I might be full of crap." He laughed and said, "we'll find out pretty quickly." He grilled me on a bunch of stuff on the ground (best place to talk about it, really), it went well. Then we flew. That went fine, too, although I did get hot and sick by the end of it, so we called it early.

    I hadn't been studying exhaustively prior to that point. That is to say, I went into high gear with the self-study once we DID start the formal training and learned quite a few new things, but I pretty much learned them at home from various reading materials, not in the cockpit with the CFII.

    If memory serves, the only meaningful things that DID come up in the cockpit were a range of approach speeds, when to configure, precision vs non-precision technique, dive and drive vs constant descent etc. They were all important, to be sure, but we encountered them and covered them pretty quickly. Notice I'm not arguing for a reduction to zero time with an instructor :) All of those things got hammered out in first 1-2 flights, then he sent me on my way to Safety Pilot World (this as in a flying club, he knew the other pilots, recommending one or two in particular).
     
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  29. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Like all things in aviation, there is no one answer. I still maintain that all things being equal, more time with a good CFII should result in a more-prepared-for-checkride-student than a safety pilot/CFII combo.
     
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  30. coma24

    coma24 Line Up and Wait

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    Ed, that's fair enough, and if someone is starting with zero prep, then you're probably right. I'm just a little bit exhausted by the notion that all self-study is useless. There's crazy amounts of evidence that it's not.

    I think I was in a very delicate financial situation during my instrument training. Doing an extra 25 hours with an instructor would've equated to around and extra $1600, and that would've been a deal breaker at the time.
     
  31. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Oh, I self studied the crap out of things too, in my case it was the non-flying portion. Horrible students are the ones who don't do anything except during the time with the instructor.
     
  32. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

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    I fly with one at times that charges $30 an hour. But he's in the Atlanta area.
     
  33. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What type of CFI do you get for $30hr? Or is this a buddy who just charges you $30 but real world is CFIing you because he’s your friend?
     
  34. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

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    Nope. He's one of the instructors for a flying club there and that's what he charges. He instructs apart from the club also. He also owns his own Apache that he does twin instruction in for $220 and hour plus his $30 and hour for a total of $250 an hour for twin instruction. CFI, CFII, MEI.
     
  35. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I default at $50hr cash or trade, but I’ve been told I was selling myself quite short. 30 bucks seems crazy low.
     
  36. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

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    You defintely don't see it that low very often. The instructor at my flying club charges $40 an hour.
     
  37. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    $60 - $120 at my club here in the $an Franci$co Bay area.