IFR lessons, (miles down the road)

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
20,237
Location
west Texas
Display Name

Display name:
Dave Taylor
Even 15? years after my ifr training and pretty regular use, sometimes in bigger airports, I learn stuff which I probably shoulda known a long time ago. Maybe everyone already knows this one but in case there is someone out there that has not run across it...

When does "Descend and maintain 10,000." not mean start on down to 10,000 and level off there?
Here's when:
(don't worry, I figured it out before I did something silly, so no PD this time- yay)

It does not mean that, when it is preceded by "Except For".
Now, I need to review the P/CG because I'd never heard that and did not truly understand it's meaning. Maybe someone can find that for me.

Here is how this occurred:
I was finishing up the enroute segment and getting near a star - center says,

"Cleared direct xyz, Descend Via the abcde star.....Except For; Descend and Maintain 10,000"

Now if you have not done a lot of Descend Via's with all those altitude restrictions (me), and if you focus yourself only on the last 4 words of the clearance "Descend and maintain 10000" - you might dial up 10000 and push the nose over. Silly you.

What is meant here is, hit all the altitude restrictions on the star but as you get near the end there are altitudes shown at 8, 6, 5 etc, but YOU stop at 10 and continue to laterally navigate the star ignoring those lower altitude restrictions.
At least, that is how other more experienced pilots have told me that this is supposed to work and it makes sense.
 
Yeah, that's what it means. "Descend via...except maintain" is an adjustment to the STAR's Bottom Altitude. It's the difference between "descend and maintain" and "descend via ... except maintain." Small semantic difference, but big operational one. Applies to climbs via a SID as well.

There's been a good amount of confusion on climb and descend via. There's also some decent material out there including videos, but here's a link to. FAQ the FAA workgroup put out. Your issue is covered
 
Yeah, that's what it means. "Descend via...except maintain" is an adjustment to the STAR's Bottom Altitude. It's the difference between "descend and maintain" and "descend via ... except maintain." Small semantic difference, but big operational one. Applies to climbs via a SID as well.

There's been a good amount of confusion on climb and descend via. There's also some decent material out there including videos, but here's a link to. FAQ the FAA workgroup put out. Your issue is covered

Link?
 
Probably this.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...00/afs470/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf

Rant:

They need to stop publishing separate junk like this and get stuff like this into the AIM where it belongs.

The three letter orgs really need to make a bigger stink about so many varied places to find this information. They’re not even bothering to put this stuff in Advisory Circulars anymore, even.

Getting ridiculous.

Too many branches at FAA with web punishing rights and nobody saying “stop it, punish that stuff in an official place where pilots are TRAINED to find it”. Barely anyway. Good luck finding an index for all the Advisory Circulars, Chief Counsel letters, even when they’re in some sort of official document format and released properly.

If it’s confusing enough for a FAQ, it needs to be clarified in an AC or the AIM. Not slapped together in Word and dumped on the website.

Organized. They need a damn person who’s organized.
 
Probably this.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...00/afs470/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf

Rant:

They need to stop publishing separate junk like this and get stuff like this into the AIM where it belongs.
Um... AIM 5-2-8

Example 4: (Using the Example 3 flight plan, ATC determines the top altitude must be changed to FL180). The clearance will read:

“Cleared to Johnston Airport, Scott One departure, Jonez transition, Q-One Forty-five, Climb via SID except maintain flight level one eight zero.”

Note: In Example 4, the aircraft must comply with the Scott One departure lateral path and any published speed and altitude restrictions while climbing to FL180. The aircraft must stop climb at FL180 until issued further clearance by ATC​

Similar explanations and examples in AIM 5-4-1 for "descend via."
 
Um... AIM 5-2-8

Example 4: (Using the Example 3 flight plan, ATC determines the top altitude must be changed to FL180). The clearance will read:

“Cleared to Johnston Airport, Scott One departure, Jonez transition, Q-One Forty-five, Climb via SID except maintain flight level one eight zero.”

Note: In Example 4, the aircraft must comply with the Scott One departure lateral path and any published speed and altitude restrictions while climbing to FL180. The aircraft must stop climb at FL180 until issued further clearance by ATC​

Similar explanations and examples in AIM 5-4-1 for "descend via."

Actually I knew that was in there. My complaint is: If it’s still not clear after reading that and it needs a multiple page “FAQ” document, then something needs amplified in the AIM.

I just didn’t want to get into it in this specific case in my little rant there. There’s plenty of stuff that isn’t in the FAR or AIM that SHOULD be, if someone would take away the keys to the websites from a whole bunch of folks.

And give them to someone who knows how to write a damned table of contents and set up a full-text and keyword search engine, both. :)
 
There will always be additional explanatory material. Agreed on the need for a decent internal search engine. It's amazing how much easier to use Google to search, for example, "FAA AIM [subject]" than use the FAA site.
 
Interesting stuff!

I've also learned plenty of stuff long post-IR. Like what a contact approach is really good for, when it's OK to go straight in on a GPS approach when cleared direct to an IF instead of an IAF (which changed after I got my IR), and probably some other things as well.
 
Interesting stuff!

I've also learned plenty of stuff long post-IR. Like what a contact approach is really good for, when it's OK to go straight in on a GPS approach when cleared direct to an IF instead of an IAF (which changed after I got my IR), and probably some other things as well.
I learn new stuff almost daily. It's when we think we know all there is that we get in trouble.
 
Back
Top