IFR departure conflict.

gismo

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iGismo
What do you all think of this:

Sunday on the way home from Florida I stopped for fuel in Tennessee, had a quick potty break, paid for the fuel and we climbed into the airplane to leave. The weather was barely VFR with a 1200 ft ceiling and a few miles vis so I didn't want to pick up my clearance in the air. I fired up the engines, taxied out, did a quick runnup and called National Clearance delivery on the cellphone for my clearance. They told me that another airplane already had a clearance and I'd have to wait until he was airborne and in contact with ATC. There was a Cessna 210 that had been sitting on the ramp near the fuel pumps and that pilot had begun preflighting when I climbed into the plane. I had talked to him briefly just before that and learned he was headed in the same general direction (destination Springfield IL about 20 miles off my route to Mpls). Being used to calling for clearance on the phone, I never even thought to ask if he already had his clearance but apparently he must have either gotten a fairly lengthy void time or else he went inside and got the clearance as I was taxiing out (I was about 5 minutes from startup to calling FSS and when I was told about the conflict he was still loading his family into the airplane). Since I was blocking the access to the runway I pulled onto the runway, turned around and taxied back to the ramp which was pretty close to that end of the runway. As I got out of the way he had started the engine and was doing a runnup so I tried to contact him on the CTAF but got no response (at this point he had about a minute left on his void time). He then pulled onto the runway and began his takeoff roll so I taxied back to the departure hold short line. About halfway down the runway he pulled the power and taxied off at an intersection. I tried contacting the 210 on the CTAF (I hadn't heard any calls from him on that frequency during the whole episode) and again got no response so I called FSS back and said the other airplane just aborted and asked if I could go and just as the briefer was getting the clearance from ATC the 210 taxied back onto the runway (at the intersection) and departed. I told the briefer that the 210 was in the air and that I could hear him calling in on the Memphis Center frequency. I got my clearance shortly after that and was on my way. Altogether from the time I started engines untill the takeoff about 20 minutes had elapsed. As far as I can tell the 210 began his first launch attempt about when his void time expired and the second and successful attempt a few minutes after that.

It's fairly likely that the 210 pilot tried to hurry when he realized we were in conflict although his rush might have simply been due to the soon to expire clearance void time. In hindsight I sure wish I had queried the pilot on the ground before starting and I suppose I'll do that if something like this ever happens again. As I expected I passed him about halfway to SPI and since I was ready to depart before he even got his engine started there clearly wouldn't have any conflict had I gotten my clearance ahead of him. Perhaps he thought I was departing VFR?
 
I would have launched knowing the 210 was behind me, and told center that the 210 was still fueling at the pumps on my second call call up, now that I was in the air. Would also write down his tail number and send him a nastygram in the mail.
 
I think the key Ed is that it was barely VFR and 1200ft ceilings. There can be dirt filled clouds around that area.

Was this at KJWN Lance?

If it was why not use the clearance remote frequency?

But in either case, the clearance was offered to the first guy with apparently a long void time so I am not sure what the controller could do to void his clearance.
 
I told the briefer that the 210 was in the air and that I could hear him calling in on the Memphis Center frequency.

Did you know Memphis Center could be reached on the ground before you phoned for your clearance.
 
It would depend where in Tennessee I suppose. That is also why I don't act like a complete jackhole, and I get my void time as close to take off time as possible. Usually, right after I start the engines after fueling, and I am taxiing to the runway.
 
I've not encountered that but have wondered about the scenario of those who get their clearance while still being significantly unprepared for departure. I don't know how long ATC can make a void time but more than ten minutes seems excessive to me.
 
It would depend where in Tennessee I suppose. That is also why I don't act like a complete jackhole, and I get my void time as close to take off time as possible. Usually, right after I start the engines after fueling, and I am taxiing to the runway.

I've not encountered that but have wondered about the scenario of those who get their clearance while still being significantly unprepared for departure. I don't know how long ATC can make a void time but more than ten minutes seems excessive to me.

I am with you guys. I get my clearance when I am ready to go. Like Lance it is after everything is packed up, pre-flighted and the engine started.
 
I think the key Ed is that it was barely VFR and 1200ft ceilings. There can be dirt filled clouds around that area.

Was this at KJWN Lance?

If it was why not use the clearance remote frequency?

But in either case, the clearance was offered to the first guy with apparently a long void time so I am not sure what the controller could do to void his clearance.

Nope, KRNC (no RCO or GCO there).

Ed, if I launched (without a clearance) there's a good chance that ATC would make me wait in the air until the 210 contacted them before or after he launched. I suppose I could have scud run far enough away that they'd clear me into the clouds but that just doesn't seem safe.
 
The only times I've ever needed and asked for more than 10 minutes were:

Departing an FRZ airport, where I had to call FSS and open my FRZ/IFR flight plan. Since I didn't have my cell phone that day I had to call from the inside, and the airport wouldn't take their prop lock off my airplane until I was actually in the airplane ready to start it.

A place out in the middle of nowhere with no cell service. Again, I asked for 20 min to get to the airplane and be ready for departure.

In both cases there was no other traffic.
 
Did you know Memphis Center could be reached on the ground before you phoned for your clearance.

You can't reach center from the ground, his call was airborne and AFaIK the first two calls went unanswered as they were repeated. I couldn't hear center from the ground either.
 
In both cases there was no other traffic.

I think that's key. I've also had to get a 15 minute void time once or twice due to lack of cell coverage and a long taxi to the departure end, but if there was another airplane ready to take off ahead of me I think I'd wait for him to get a clearance first. Then again it's possible that his clearance had a 10 minute limit and like I said I think he actually violated that twice. IMO if the void time has already passed, just because you're on the runway doesn't make it legal to depart. There's than little phrase "if not airborne by..." with the stress on "airborne". I should also mention that he had two or three small kids in addition to his wife. AFaIK none of them were in the plane when he called for his clearance, that's definitely the way I'd do it.
 
I'm kinda wondering just how much of a void time that 210 pilot got, and whether he made it. If he didn't, he probably got an earful from ATC, and maybe even a PD report. Also, it was sorta foolish of him not to be on CTAF, since it was legal VMC, and there could have been VFR aircraft arriving or departing. However, you did the only thing you could, since launching into 1200 OVC without a clearance in hand hoping to pick it up in the air is a recipe for disaster.
 
I'm kinda wondering just how much of a void time that 210 pilot got, and whether he made it. If he didn't, he probably got an earful from ATC, and maybe even a PD report. Also, it was sorta foolish of him not to be on CTAF, since it was legal VMC, and there could have been VFR aircraft arriving or departing. However, you did the only thing you could, since launching into 1200 OVC without a clearance in hand hoping to pick it up in the air is a recipe for disaster.

I wouldn't be surprised if the pilot in his haste to meet the void time, managed to use the wrong CTAF. I know that's happened to me once or twice when I was in a hurry.

Too bad I couldn't hear center on the ground to learn what they said when the 210 called in. Then again I don't think they have any way to know for certain when the 210 became airborne as that would obviously be some time before they were contacted.
 
I've not encountered that but have wondered about the scenario of those who get their clearance while still being significantly unprepared for departure. I don't know how long ATC can make a void time but more than ten minutes seems excessive to me.

They can make it as long as they want, but it's a bit odd to make one that long when there's another proposed IFR departure.
 
Sure sounds like you did what you could and he may not have had any idea there was a potential conflict until he got his void time; with family loading up, you probably can understand him not being prompt.

This is why I sometimes get the approach/departure frequency from the A/FD or in the air before landing. I had a situation where a fella had a void time at another airport (I was in Portage c47, he was at Dells about 15 miles away). I was ready to depart and he was still on the ground not ready to depart but was talking to Madison. She asked the other plane if she could get a departure out if ready to depart now and he agreed. I left and turned opposite direction of Dells; he was cleared as soon as I turned on course.

LM just can't do that kind of stuff. Doesn't always help, but void times can have issues and sure aren't flexible.

Best,

Dave
 
Lance, sounds like you did the right thing and this other guy wasn't being particularly courteous.

When I call for clearance from the ground, it's with the engine(s) running and ready to go. That way when they ask when I'm ready to depart, I can say "Immediately" and be on my way. This has always been at pretty unpopulated airports, though, as the populated ones I go to all have towers.

I wouldn't have done the take off and skud run, either, given the conditions you reported. I prefer to pick up my clearance on the ground.

Maybe not a nastygram, but that 210 pilot should receive some sort of earful, preferably from ATC, for his behavior. You shouldn't have been delayed 20 minutes like that.
 
We in the "INDY" area get 15 min max.....from the airport I fly out of KMQJ

M
That is not a bad time. Chi-App will give me usually 5 minutes. So when I need a clearance I am calling after I have finished my preflight and run up and am sitting at the departure end of the runway.

If one can depart and pick up the clearance in the air that is the best thing for around here. Since I am close to one of the routes that ORD traffic is coming over Chi-APP will sometimes, not often though, tell you to wait 20 or 30 minutes and try again.
 
It's exasperating to wait for a clearance with one engine running. I'm sure you were frustrated.

Sounds to me like you did the only prudent thing possible - wait for the inconsiderate pilot. I too am surprised by the apparent long void time. That wouldn't happen with Atlanta approach, but if he were going to ignore the void time anyway that wouldn't have mattered.

You CFIIs out there. Do you teach the implications (for other aircraft) of void times?
 
Philly approach usually asks how long 'til you're ready to go. If it's more than 1 or 2 minutes they'll tell you to call back when you're #1 ready to go. Of course, it's busy airspace, very different from some remote airfield. Earlier this year I got a 30 minute void time at some remote field out west, I think in NV, and almost laughed. A 30 minute void time to me seems like 30 years!
 
You CFIIs out there. Do you teach the implications (for other aircraft) of void times?
No, I don't go that far, although I do teach them about how the airport is shut down for IFR ops for 30 minutes after your void time if you don't call airborne or phone in that you didn't launch (as you're supposed to do within 5 minutes after your void time if you don't get airborne by your void time). I've always taught that so they understand their options if they get airborne and find they're lost comm, not so they can hog the airport.
 
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