IFR Clearance Delivery Phone Numbers

[denverpilot]

In case you missed it, as of the April Chart Supplement... FAA has been adding phone numbers for specific facilities to obtain IFR Clearances. There were 30 in April.

(I assume this is to make things quicker at those facilities... seems to me like as a telecom guy, they should just add a way to route to those facilities from a menu on the main national 800 IFR Clearance phone number... but I guess that'd be too easy...)

A number of them will also (according to them) be installing a SEPARATE number for IFR Cancellation. (Why, I don't know.) That part is interesting to me.

Anyway, maybe old news, but look for them if you haven't seen it...

 

[luvflyin]

In case you missed it, as of the April Chart Supplement... FAA has been adding phone numbers for specific facilities to obtain IFR Clearances. There were 30 in April.

(I assume this is to make things quicker at those facilities... seems to me like as a telecom guy, they should just add a way to route to those facilities from a menu on the main national 800 IFR Clearance phone number... but I guess that'd be too easy...)

A number of them will also (according to them) be installing a SEPARATE number for IFR Cancellation. (Why, I don't know.) That part is interesting to me.

Anyway, maybe old news, but look for them if you haven't seen it...

Separate cancelling number would allow for the phone not being busy with folk getting clearances when you cancel. If the phone is busy with a bunch of folk cancelling, then something bad is going on.

 

[denverpilot]

Separate cancelling number would allow for the phone not being busy with folk getting clearances when you cancel. If the phone is busy with a bunch of folk cancelling, then something bad is going on.

Still silly. Stick a menu on it to put cancellations next in the queue.

 

[gsengle]

Still silly. Stick a menu on it to put cancellations next in the queue.

But the menu item and a different number are essentially the same thing from a modern phone system point of view, and prompt cancellations are critical to release other aircraft


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[denverpilot]

But the menu item and a different number are essentially the same thing from a modern phone system point of view, and prompt cancellations are critical to release other aircraft


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They're not exactly the same price, but close enough so that part doesn't matter. But the not using a single 800 number is back-assward from a user friendliness standpoint. No need to look these up, then. Dial one number nationwide , handle cancellations there first clearances second. That's super easy to architect these days. And cheap. Even for high volume.

 

[gsengle]

They're not exactly the same price, but close enough so that part doesn't matter. But the not using a single 800 number is back-assward from a user friendliness standpoint. No need to look these up, then. Dial one number nationwide , handle cancellations there first clearances second. That's super easy to architect these days. And cheap. Even for high volume.

Honestly it's silly to have facility specific numbers, you should be able to say the tail number and the computer confirms it and done. One cancel number nationwide... or whatever


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[luvflyin]

Still silly. Stick a menu on it to put cancellations next in the queue.

Yeah. The guy in holding or getting vectored all over the sky waiting for the cancellation so he can get his approach clearance might not like that idea. The cancellation being next in line would quicken things up though. Maybe the cancellation number goes to a different physical location closer to the controller but farther from the clearance delivery dude. I dunno, just speculating, but it passes the logic check

 

[denverpilot]

The guy in holding or getting vectored all over the sky waiting for the cancellation so he can get his approach clearance might not like that idea

I don't think you understood or I phrased it poorly. Cancellations go first.

Heck the person who said voice rec is right but I'm sure they need to hear a live body or something.

Another hack that would take a weekend of coding on any modern ACD would be to pull in weather data and route those with flightplans that had IMC weather (within a time window) of departure or arrival above those who were filing in VMC, with an appropriate weighting/bucket system that accounts for mixed and none.

Unless FAA is still using the Nortel gear they had when I was working on their stuff in the 90s. If that's the case, forget about all of this. The gear is too stupid. But I think I've seen Cisco VoIP phones in all the facilities I've been in in the last decade.

 

[luvflyin]

They're not exactly the same price, but close enough so that part doesn't matter. But the not using a single 800 number is back-assward from a user friendliness standpoint. No need to look these up, then. Dial one number nationwide , handle cancellations there first clearances second. That's super easy to architect these days. And cheap. Even for high volume.

Yah gotta get the cancellation to the controller sitting at the scope before it's useful. A nationwide number is going to delay that.

 

[denverpilot]

Yah gotta get the cancellation to the controller sitting at the scope before it's useful. A nationwide number is going to delay that.

Not at all if it's done right. Direct call routing by either CID, tail number, or destination, is a ten second thing.

It doesn't go directly to the controller anyway, it rings at a desk away from the operational station.

This is all really easy stuff in a modern phone system. Other than that weather thing. That requires some METAR parsing to get a couple of booleans.

 

[luvflyin]

I don't think you understood or I phrased it poorly. Cancellations go first.

Heck the person who said voice rec is right but I'm sure they need to hear a live body or something.

Another hack that would take a weekend of coding on any modern ACD would be to pull in weather data and route those with flightplans that had IMC weather (within a time window) of departure or arrival above those who were filing in VMC, with an appropriate weighting/bucket system that accounts for mixed and none.

Unless FAA is still using the Nortel gear they had when I was working on their stuff in the 90s. If that's the case, forget about all of this. The gear is too stupid. But I think I've seen Cisco VoIP phones in all the facilities I've been in in the last decade.

Time will tell. Centers are divided into Areas. Each Area has a supervisor. The cancellation number is likely at tha Area Sups desk. The "Super TRACONS" would be the same.

 

[denverpilot]

Time will tell. Centers are divided into Areas. Each Area has a supervisor. The cancellation number is likely at tha Area Sups desk. The "Super TRACONS" would be the same.

Yeah. Probably the reason for only 30 of these when they started is they don't know how to set up time-of-day routing either. Sup desk, 24/7 facilities only. And I bet these do to the TRACON but who knows... would have to look at the list closer and see if I could do some guessing by DID number block used.

Oh well fun to think about how you'd program it. Really wouldn't be that bad but you'd need some lookup tables for various things. Including the aforementioned time-of-day for calls that go to one place when day and another at night.

 

[luvflyin]

Yeah. Probably the reason for only 30 of these when they started is they don't know how to set up time-of-day routing either. Sup desk, 24/7 facilities only. And I bet these do to the TRACON but who knows... would have to look at the list closer and see if I could do some guessing by DID number block used.

Oh well fun to think about how you'd program it. Really wouldn't be that bad but you'd need some lookup tables for various things. Including the aforementioned time-of-day for calls that go to one place when day and another at night.

When you look, find that facilities phone number, the one where the secretary answers the phone. If the cancellation number only differs in the last four digits that will tell a story. If you find some airports in that Centers sky that are pretty far apart, likely in a different Area, and it's a different last four digits, that's more of the story.

 

[denverpilot]

When you look, find that facilities phone number, the one where the secretary answers the phone. If the cancellation number only differs in the last four digits that will tell a story. If you find some airports in that Centers sky that are pretty far apart, likely in a different Area, and it's a different last four digits, that's more of the story.

Maybe. That's the analysis I was thinking of dojng, just looking at DID blocks, but some facilities may not have their numbering blocks in a row or may have had to order a new DID for this stuff. Can't really tell from the outside without access to the SS7 routing responses. (I used to be able to query the SS7 database long long ago.)

 

[luvflyin]

Maybe. That's the analysis I was thinking of dojng, just looking at DID blocks, but some facilities may not have their numbering blocks in a row or may have had to order a new DID for this stuff. Can't really tell from the outside without access to the SS7 routing responses. (I used to be able to query the SS7 database long long ago.)

DID?? SS7??

 

[denverpilot]

DID?? SS7??

Telecom terms. DID stands for Direct Inward Dialing, slang for "phone number blocks". Nothing these days makes you buy or use them in blocks but back in the day your observation that they're often in numerical order was because of how they were issued and routed. Nowadays you could mix and match hundreds of thousands of numbers that were no relational pattern to each other at all.

SS7 Signaling System 7 - the routing protocol you ask for where to send a call if you're a carrier. Originally used for 800# routing, now used for everything after local number portability came to be, a long time ago. And there's other protocols for doing it over IP these days also. Also used as a way to handle DR (backup system answers routing requests if primary goes offline and may also answer with different routing for outages and going around them.)

Just telecom geek stuff. Like I said, getting this to not be 30+ phone numbers is a piece of cake. BTDT got the t-shirt. But it does require planning and execution.

They kinda went the 1980s path on this one. Oh well.

 

[luvflyin]

Telecom terms. DID stands for Direct Inward Dialing, slang for "phone number blocks". Nothing these days makes you buy or use them in blocks but back in the day your observation that they're often in numerical order was because of how they were issued and routed. Nowadays you could mix and match hundreds of thousands of numbers that were no relational pattern to each other at all.

SS7 Signaling System 7 - the routing protocol you ask for where to send a call if you're a carrier. Originally used for 800# routing, now used for everything after local number portability came to be, a long time ago. And there's other protocols for doing it over IP these days also. Also used as a way to handle DR (backup system answers routing requests if primary goes offline and may also answer with different routing for outages and going around them.)

Just telecom geek stuff. Like I said, getting this to not be 30+ phone numbers is a piece of cake. BTDT got the t-shirt. But it does require planning and execution.

They kinda went the 1980s path on this one. Oh well.

My compare the last four digits thang may not tell the story. It'll all make sense in time as these numbers start getting used.

 

[denverpilot]

My compare the last four digits thang may not tell the story. It'll all make sense in time as these numbers start getting used.

Oh it already makes sense. I do this stuff for a living. They went the cheap, quick, and dirty route that requires a "phone book".

I even got to stare at H.323 packets handling audio calls today playing "spot the missing packet". 1990s era tech in the field.

 

[Bill Watson]

I'm looking at KRDU and trying to see if they list a number... are the in the remarks section?


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[luvflyin]

Oh it already makes sense. I do this stuff for a living. They went the cheap, quick, and dirty route that requires a "phone book".

I even got to stare at H.323 packets handling audio calls today playing "spot the missing packet". 1990s era tech in the field.

What are some of the airports that have this in the Chart Supplement? Is there a list of the 30 you mentioned?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm looking at KRDU and trying to see if they list a number... are the in the remarks section?


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They will typically be in a section at the bottom of the entry called "COM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS" like the one for Leesburg, VA (KJYO). RDU is not one of those with the listing, but the number, though not identified as being specifically for that purpose, is actually embedded in the regular "Remarks" section. It's (919) 380-3125

 

[Clark1961]

They will typically be in a section at the bottom of the entry called "COM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS" like the one for Leesburg, VA (KJYO). RDU is not one of those with the listing, but the number, though not identified as being specifically for that purpose, is actually embedded in the regular "Remarks" section. It's (919) 380-3125

If one calls the CD number to cancel will they put you in a hold?

 

[luvflyin]

They will typically be in a section at the bottom of the entry called "COM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS" like the one for Leesburg, VA (KJYO). RDU is not one of those with the listing, but the number, though not identified as being specifically for that purpose, is actually embedded in the regular "Remarks" section. It's (919) 380-3125

Have you seen any where there is a different number for cancelling IFR than for getting a clearance?? That number in the Remarks at RDU seems to be about PPR, not clearance delivery.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If one calls the CD number to cancel will they put you in a hold?

The

aside, I haven't gotten it from RDU TRACON, but some facilities give you a cancellation number other than the WXBRIEF one anyway. Fortunately, cancelling does not involve the telephone tag departure does.

 

[luvflyin]

If one calls the CD number to cancel will they put you in a hold?

Yes. With an EFC of "5 minutes after caller number six."

 

[midlifeflyer]

Have you seen any where there is a different number for cancelling IFR than for getting a clearance?? That number in the Remarks at RDU seems to be about PPR, not clearance delivery.

Well, I said it wasn't specified as being for CD. I happen to know you can use it to pick up a clearance because it's the one we use at the nontowered airport where I am based.

I suspect if TRACON gave a "cancel on the ground" number other than FAA, it would probably be the same one. As I said when I replied to Clark, I'm not really worried about a cancellation number. From my standpoint 800 WXBRIEF is just as convenient as any other. If ATC wants be to use another because it's more convenient for them, I'm happy to do so.

 

[luvflyin]

The

aside, I haven't gotten it from RDU TRACON, but some facilities give you a cancellation number other than the WXBRIEF one anyway. Fortunately, cancelling does not involve the telephone tag departure does.

Yeah. That would be why the "A number of them will also (according to them) be installing a SEPARATE number for IFR Cancellation. (Why, I don't know.) That part is interesting to me." The clearance delivery dude could way far away from the controller waiting for that cancellation, maybe not even in the same building.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The clearance delivery dude could way far away from the controller waiting for that cancellation, maybe not even in the same building.

Yep. It's the same "telephone tag" issue but from the other end. On the CD side, ATC doesn't need to get that void time to you that quickly; on the cancellation end, the faster they can clear the airspace for the next guy, the better, so they might prefer a more direct line from pilot to TRACON.

What I think we are going to see is, the busier the airspace, the more likely to have dedicated, rather than general, numbers.

 

[luvflyin]

Well, I said it wasn't specified as being for CD. I happen to know you can use it to pick up a clearance because it's the one we use at the nontowered airport where I am based.

I suspect if TRACON gave a "cancel on the ground" number other than FAA, it would probably be the same one. As I said when I replied to Clark, I'm not really worried about a cancellation number. From my standpoint 800 WXBRIEF is just as convenient as any other. If ATC wants be to use another because it's more convenient for them, I'm happy to do so.

Yeah. I was just wondering if you know of an AF/D entry that has actually published the seperate cancelling number.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah. I was just wondering if you know of an AF/D entry that has actually published the seperate cancelling number.

Nope. I only know the ones I come across in the ordinary course of looking up an airport or someone else mentions.

 

[George Mohr]

Also note: this phone number is a great way of getting your code/freq for departure in a Presidential TFR outer ring.

 

[Bill Watson]

They will typically be in a section at the bottom of the entry called "COM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS" like the one for Leesburg, VA (KJYO). RDU is not one of those with the listing, but the number, though not identified as being specifically for that purpose, is actually embedded in the regular "Remarks" section. It's (919) 380-3125

And I've been using 919-840-0071, no answer,
I'll try it


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[flyingron]

What makes you think the guy who'd process the cancellation is any different than the guy issuing clearances.

 

[Bill Watson]

Have you seen any where there is a different number for cancelling IFR than for getting a clearance?? That number in the Remarks at RDU seems to be about PPR, not clearance delivery.

I'm sure you figured this out already, it takes some very careful parsing of the punctuation:

PPR for all mil acft, fixed wing–rotary wing and unscheduled charter flts with 30 or more pax. 24 hrs PN rqr for mil practice apchs. Ctc arpt ops 919–840–7510 or RDU app C919–380–3125. 24 hr PPR for all fixed wing and rotary wing mil acft going to ARNG ramp. POC DSN
582–9000, extn 16200, C919–804–5300, extn 16200. OSACOM flight det DSN 582–9000, extn 16202,
C919–804–5300, extn 16202.

The period between "-3125" and "24 hr PPR" seems to mean different topic. period = 'different topic' where in the normal world we'd at least start a new line or paragraph.

Reminds you of old teletype sequence reports (METARS) where they had all this single character symbology for things like cloud cover to save bandwidth. Maybe trying to squeeze as much as they could from 128 character 7-bit ASCII.


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[midlifeflyer]

I'm sure you figured this out already, it takes some very careful parsing of the punctuation:

PPR for all mil acft, fixed wing–rotary wing and unscheduled charter flts with 30 or more pax. 24 hrs PN rqr for mil practice apchs. Ctc arpt ops 919–840–7510 or RDU app C919–380–3125. 24 hr PPR for all fixed wing and rotary wing mil acft going to ARNG ramp.

The period between "-3125" and "24 hr PPR" seems to mean different topic. period = 'different topic' where in the normal world we'd at least start a new line or paragraph.

I think @luvflyin is correct. All three sentences - the two ends and the one in the middle - apply to the requirement for prior permission for certain for certain flights. The "embedded" I mentioned is just that one of the two phone numbers given is identified as being for "RDU app." At worst, one could give them a call at one's leisure and ask, "can I use this number to get an IFR clearance from KLHZ (or wherever)?" And, "if not, is there one?" Not for a CD number, but I've done that at other facilities when I had a procedural question.

 

[luvflyin]

I'm sure you figured this out already, it takes some very careful parsing of the punctuation:

PPR for all mil acft, fixed wing–rotary wing and unscheduled charter flts with 30 or more pax. 24 hrs PN rqr for mil practice apchs. Ctc arpt ops 919–840–7510 or RDU app C919–380–3125. 24 hr PPR for all fixed wing and rotary wing mil acft going to ARNG ramp. POC DSN
582–9000, extn 16200, C919–804–5300, extn 16200. OSACOM flight det DSN 582–9000, extn 16202,
C919–804–5300, extn 16202.

The period between "-3125" and "24 hr PPR" seems to mean different topic. period = 'different topic' where in the normal world we'd at least start a new line or paragraph.

Reminds you of old teletype sequence reports (METARS) where they had all this single character symbology for things like cloud cover to save bandwidth. Maybe trying to squeeze as much as they could from 128 character 7-bit ASCII.


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I see that. It was the "24 hrs PN rqr for mil practice apchs" that I was referring to where the arprt ops or RDU app numbers followed. It was the PN, prior notice, I keyed off on but said PPR, my bad. All the other PPR stuff wouldn't be any of ATC's business, but shootin practice approaches would.

 

[luvflyin]

I think @luvflyin is correct. All three sentences - the two ends and the one in the middle - apply to the requirement for prior permission for certain for certain flights. The "embedded" I mentioned is just that one of the two phone numbers given is identified as being for "RDU app." At worst, one could give them a call at one's leisure and ask, "can I use this number to get an IFR clearance from KLHZ (or wherever)?" And, "if not, is there one?" Not for a CD number, but I've done that at other facilities when I had a procedural question.

Lol. We was typin at the same time. I wasn't exactly correct in what I said, but I kinda was in what I thought I meant

 

[paflyer]

In case you missed it, as of the April Chart Supplement... FAA has been adding phone numbers for specific facilities to obtain IFR Clearances. There were 30 in April.

(I assume this is to make things quicker at those facilities... seems to me like as a telecom guy, they should just add a way to route to those facilities from a menu on the main national 800 IFR Clearance phone number... but I guess that'd be too easy...)

A number of them will also (according to them) be installing a SEPARATE number for IFR Cancellation. (Why, I don't know.) That part is interesting to me.

Anyway, maybe old news, but look for them if you haven't seen it...

Thanks for the tip!

 

[paflyer]

They will typically be in a section at the bottom of the entry called "COM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS" like the one for Leesburg, VA (KJYO). RDU is not one of those with the listing, but the number, though not identified as being specifically for that purpose, is actually embedded in the regular "Remarks" section. It's (919) 380-3125

Aug 17 release for Leesburg:

COMM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS: For Clnc Del ctc Potomac Apch at 866-709-4993