If Armstrong and Aldrin got stuck on the lunar surface...

I can remember there was a space craft orbiting the moon and the liner modual had to fire, lift off, and meet up with the orbiting craft, then fire more rockets to head back to earth. All done with slide rules.

It was high drama as the world stopped to watch. I have goose bumps right now typing this. You cannot imagine the anxiety the whole world felt for these guys. Every boy wanted to be an astronaut. It was the best of times.
 
It is an interesting glimpse into what Americans thought at the time versus what we have become. We worked together for the common cause back then, today, it is all about the individual and what is in it for me. Sad really.
 
It wasn't all done with slide rules. NASA had several computers aboard their spacecraft, and a whole bunch more at Johnson and elsewhere. They were big and slow, but adequate for the job at hand.

If you want a big project done with slide rules, you look at the Manhattan Project, not Apollo.
 
At least the fuels that they used in those motors was hypergolic - dangerous as all he11 but as long as the valves opened - the engines would ignite. They had redundant valves and redundant fuel lines - but only the one rocket motor - but all it was was a combustion chamber and regulator nozzle . . . pretty simple stuff. All the excitement was in the valves opening and closing. And the astronauts could hear that happen before they kicked in the rear. . ..

I remember attending the Hugh O'Brian Youth Foundation leadership seminar in 1973 down at the Cape - and those of us who wanted to be pilots got a special late afternoon event - and there were only 8 of us out of 75 who raised our hands - and had a 'rap session,' [everything was a rap session back then] with Neil, Gene Cernan and Scott Carpenter . . . that was so neat. I sent each of them a quick thank you note for spending the time talking flying with a bunch of kids and I got a signed note back from each of them . . . .I put them together in a frame - I imagine the signed handwritten letters to me signed by the first and last men to set foot on the moon are probably worth something to a collector - even if they are personalized . ..
 
Geico266 said:
It is an interesting glimpse into what Americans thought at the time versus what we have become. We worked together for the common cause back then, today, it is all about the individual and what is in it for me. Sad really.
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We're also at over 150% of the population over 1969 which has not helped the general attitude, but I think the primary issue is that we have criminalized so many people in our War on Drugs that it has ruined the respect for society. When society deems us as criminals for one thing, we have no reason to resist being criminals in other things that gain us more, "in for a penny in for a pound" as they say. This fosters a general lack of respect for the rest of society.

Then there is the 24 hour media selling cheats, hustlers and killers as people to emulate. Cable TV was the beginning of the end in this country because people quit thinking as there was always some channel to turn to where someone would tell you what to think and what to buy, and it all revolved around the love of money.

Thinking is now frowned upon, unless your idea was done by someone else before, forget financial backing. If you have a Ponzi scheme though, you can sell that to the richest of investors. If you have an original idea people will shout you down without even giving it a real consideration, especially if A, They didn't have the idea and there is no way anyone can be smarter than them, or B, It would negatively impact their current stock portfolio.

I have witnessed this behavior over and over, including here.
 
BTW, this letter was circulating long time ago among some space enthusiasts, you could read it on many space exploration forums, this certainly is not 'today' news.
 
MAKG1 said:
It wasn't all done with slide rules. NASA had several computers aboard their spacecraft, and a whole bunch more at Johnson and elsewhere. They were big and slow, but adequate for the job at hand.

If you want a big project done with slide rules, you look at the Manhattan Project, not Apollo.
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And maybe not even there. One of Feynman's books describe the computer they had, and mentioned how one of the physicists became enamored with it rather than doing his actual work.

Maybe playing "Star Trek" ("14 unit hit on Klingon") :-)

I went to adult Space Camp twenty years or so ago, and the shuttle simulators were using weird computers with a bunch of square buttons and the need to enter "noun," etc. "From the Earth to the Moon" came out not long after that, and I discovered they were the same (style) of computer used in Apollo.

Ron Wanttaja
 
olasek said:
BTW, this letter was circulating long time ago among some space enthusiasts, you could read it on many space exploration forums, this certainly is not 'today' news.
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Yep, I remember this from many years ago, right after Challenger.
 
wanttaja said:
And maybe not even there. One of Feynman's books describe the computer they had, and mentioned how one of the physicists became enamored with it rather than doing his actual work.

Maybe playing "Star Trek" ("14 unit hit on Klingon") :-)

I went to adult Space Camp twenty years or so ago, and the shuttle simulators were using weird computers with a bunch of square buttons and the need to enter "noun," etc. "From the Earth to the Moon" came out not long after that, and I discovered they were the same (style) of computer used in Apollo.

Ron Wanttaja
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I doubt the manhattan project guys were playing Star Trek. They were a couple of decades too early. Same with most of the Apollo program although we were playing Star Trek by the mid seventies on the computers and we'd made a lunar landing simulator game by then (You've destroyed the only McDonald's on the moon).

Sliderules were dying even before computers. We had early Wang multistation scientific calculators by 1965. By 1975, the handheld scientific calculators were on the market. I had a programmable TI by the time I graduated high school in 77.

You can get an Apollo flight computer simulator (or instructions on how to build one of your own) on the net.

The shuttle program used Grid Compass (an early x86 laptop) for a while. I had one when I worked for the Army and the Smithsonian Air and Space has one (not mine) along with a Cray (not the one I worked with) and a Massively Parallel Computer (one I did work with).

Oddly enough, around 1985 we had a secretary at the lab who was taking a introductory data processing course at the community college. Her first chapter in the book was on computing history and she's reading "Napier's bones are a sliderule like device." It was readily apparent that she had no idea what a slide rule was. I hunted all over the labs, especially among the old timers (we had guys from the ENIAC days still around) and while many would admit to having some at home there was not one sitting around in the back of a desk that we could find.

Oddly enough, in our computer room (mostly as a joke) we had one of those 6 foot long teaching sliderules and I brought it up to her office to show her what it was.

I have an electronic E6B on my iPhone (it actually is a functioning image of a real E6 you can spin the dial around and everything works including the wind side/slide).
 
wanttaja said:
And maybe not even there. One of Feynman's books describe the computer they had, and mentioned how one of the physicists became enamored with it rather than doing his actual work.
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Just to be clear, what the Manhattan project called "computers" were in fact women with slide rules and mechanical desk calculators, some of them scientist's wives. Their jobs were to compute (specifically, a nasty neutron diffusion problem critical to the Bomb), hence the name. That scientists would become "enamored" with them is not terribly surprising. That only one would, well, that's a bit strange.

There were a couple of classified computers available at the time, but they were based on relays and were being used in cryptology and ballistics research.

The use of "real" computers at Los Alamos happened after the war.
 
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Geico266 said:
It is an interesting glimpse into what Americans thought at the time versus what we have become. We worked together for the common cause back then, today, it is all about the individual and what is in it for me. Sad really.
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Did you forget who the president was in 1969?
 
MAKG1 said:
It wasn't all done with slide rules. NASA had several computers aboard their spacecraft, and a whole bunch more at Johnson and elsewhere. They were big and slow, but adequate for the job at hand.

If you want a big project done with slide rules, you look at the Manhattan Project, not Apollo.
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You've got significantly more computer power in your smart phone than NASA had available in the 1960s to put a man on the moon. And the laptop I'm typing this on? Probably has more storage than the whole country had then. But, don't pick on slide rules too much. I still have my Picket N4-ES double log slide rule and I know how to use it. Handy when the batteries die on my HP-41CV pocket calculator. Yeah, I know, it's 30 years old, but what the heck, it still does the job. :D
 
flyingron said:
Sliderules were dying even before computers. We had early Wang multistation scientific calculators by 1965. By 1975, the handheld scientific calculators were on the market. I had a programmable TI by the time I graduated high school in 77.
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The HP35 came out in '72. There were electronic calculators before (Wang, as you mentioned), but none portable with trig and ln/log functions. HP really underestimated the demand - IBM sucked up most of their initial production - so it really wasn't available to us schmoes until 1973. $395.00. I was an engineering sophomore at the time. Had I not had the money I would have knocked over a liquor store to get it. :)
 
wanttaja said:
One of Feynman's books describe the computer they had, and mentioned how one of the physicists became enamored with it rather than doing his actual work.
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MAKG1 said:
Just to be clear, what the Manhattan project called "computers" were in fact women with slide rules and mechanical desk calculators, some of them scientist's wives.
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I've been enamored with that sort of "computer" as well ... :)
 
The early $200 scientific calculators hit in 1973. Then roughly in 74 or 75 Melcor made an cheap scientific calculator that got dumped on the market because it erroneously indicated arccos(0) is 0 ( should be 90). By 1976, I had an SR-52 (card reader, programable TI calculator).
 
Geico266 said:
I can remember there was a space craft orbiting the moon and the liner modual had to fire, lift off, and meet up with the orbiting craft, then fire more rockets to head back to earth. All done with slide rules.
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Actually they had one of the first digital computers built with integrated circuits. Not quite up to today's PC standards with 4k bytes of RAM and 72K bytes of ROS (program memory). It blazed along with a 2Mhz master clock and managed something like 50-200 thousand computations per second. Compare that with a typical laptop with at least a million times more RAM, 25 million times as much secondary storage (hard drive vs ROS) and about 50,000 times the speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
 
Geico266 said:
It is an interesting glimpse into what Americans thought at the time versus what we have become. We worked together for the common cause back then, today, it is all about the individual and what is in it for me. Sad really.
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I would tend to agree that there was much more of an "us versus them" mentality back then that helped unite the country in the space race. But there was also a lot of devisiveness along racial and social boundaries back then. While the country seemed to be united on the space front, we were ripping ourselves apart on so many other fronts. Much, much more than the relatively minor political squabbles we have today.

Like the book says: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times; it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness; it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity; it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness; it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair; we had everything before us, we had nothing before us."
 
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Henning said:
I heard it from Walter Cronkite at the time, that was the last person on TV I trust to have told the truth.
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Later Cronkite admittied his far left bias. However, he had a fatherly delivery that people believed. In other words he clouded the news with his bias and ofteen admitted facts, but came off as honest and believable.

This one is believable thought as Jim Lovell rights about it in his book, "Lost Moon". It is worth the read and Ron Howard followed it pretty closely in "Apollo 13".

COMMENTARY | Howard Kurtz, writing in the Daily Beast, reviews an upcoming biography of Walter Cronkite, the CBS News anchorman who was very much the network news voice of the 1960s and 1970s. It turns out that the "most trusted man in America" was not so trustworthy.

The biography, written by Douglas Brinkley, paints a portrait of a reporter all too familiar in this era in which liberal bias is open and blatant. The man many described as "Uncle Walter" for his reassuring, calm on the air mien was in many ways not unlike in his attitudes the on air ranters that have besmirched TV journalism at venues such as MSNBC. The difference is Cronkite was more subtle about it than Keith Olbermann (admittedly easy to accomplish).

There prime example of how Cronkite's liberal bias sometimes crept into his half hour broadcasts was the infamous commentary that took place on Feb. 27, 1968, at the height of the Tet Offensive, when he told the nation and President Lyndon Johnson the Vietnam War was pretty much lost. Subsequent military histories suggest Tet was a smashing victory for the American military and its allies. But largely because of reporters like Cronkite, Tet turned out to be a psychological defeat for the U.S.
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http://news.yahoo.com/biography-walter-cronkite-liberally-biased-213500889.html

Sorry to burst your bubble.
 
That's some odd analysis. Tet was a psychological defeat because Cronkite said so? No, it was a psychological defeat because the Johnson Administration said the war was all but won, and the North Vietnamese made a massive nationwide offensive the public had been led to believe was impossible. It exposed at least the public side of the military planning to be based on fantasy.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's some odd analysis. Tet was a psychological defeat because Cronkite said so? No, it was a psychological defeat because the Johnson Administration said the war was all but won, and the North Vietnamese made a massive nationwide offensive the public had been led to believe was impossible. It exposed at least the public side of the military planning to be based on fantasy.
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Correctamundo. However, Cronkite's commentary convinced LBJ to not run for re-election.

Walter's bias pretty well blended into the surrounding media of the time. It became apparent after he retired. The Pentagon, now (with some justification) completely distrustful of the news media, gave no advance warning of the landings on Grenada - and no "journalists" (love that word - many today can't define a complete sentence) were embedded. Cronkite was outraged, and his comments at that time were quite edifying.
 
comanchepilot said:
. . . .I put them together in a frame - I imagine the signed handwritten letters to me signed by the first and last men to set foot on the moon are probably worth something to a collector - even if they are personalized . ..
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Trading an important part of your life such as that for money would probably be one of your life's greatest regrets. You have had those letters for years, the money would last a few months at best. I know you would never sell such things, but it is easy to become blinded by money.

Speaking as a retired picture framer, you should insure that those letters have been framed properly. Displaying anything in a picture frame is detrimental to whatever it is, but such things are enjoyed a whole lot more when you can see them, rather than being locked up in a safe deposit box.

They should be floated or hinged to acid free mats and framed with UV protected glass. Another method is Mylar encapsulation, but I'm not all that fond of the appearance Mylar gives to framed collectibles.

Do not take them to just any frame shop you think or heard as being reputable. Find a paper conservator in your area, preferably one recommended by your local fine art museum and find a framer through them.

There are a lot of hacks in the picture framing industry, you have to be careful of where you go with your valuables. Too many people frame by price, which can be a huge mistake and regret down the road.

-John
 
John Baker said:
Trading an important part of your life such as that for money would probably be one of your life's greatest regrets. You have had those letters for years, the money would last a few months at best. I know you would never sell such things, but it is easy to become blinded by money.

Speaking as a retired picture framer, you should insure that those letters have been framed properly. Displaying anything in a picture frame is detrimental to whatever it is, but such things are enjoyed a whole lot more when you can see them, rather than being locked up in a safe deposit box.

They should be floated or hinged to acid free mats and framed with UV protected glass. Another method is Mylar encapsulation, but I'm not all that fond of the appearance Mylar gives to framed collectibles.

Do not take them to just any frame shop you think or heard as being reputable. Find a paper conservator in your area, preferably one recommended by your local fine art museum and find a framer through them.

There are a lot of hacks in the picture framing industry, you have to be careful of where you go with your valuables. Too many people frame by price, which can be a huge mistake and regret down the road.

-John
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The other side of that coin is that he may be able to get an airplane to fly from those guys in trade for the letters that they gave him. I doubt any of those guys would hesitate at telling someone to go for that.
 
rotorhead1026 said:
Correctamundo. However, Cronkite's commentary convinced LBJ to not run for re-election.
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Lyndon Johnson was one of the most astute political animals there ever was. He didn't retire from public life because Cronkite said bad things about him. He did so because he knew his position was untenable.
 
comanchepilot said:
I imagine the signed handwritten letters to me signed by the first and last men to set foot on the moon are probably worth something to a collector - even if they are personalized . ..
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The Cernan letter would likely sell for less than $100 in today's market. A fully handwritten letter by Armstrong could fetch better than $5K. It will be interesting to see what his signed materials do in value now that he is gone. He essentially stopped signing for collectors over ten years ago.
 
write-stuff said:
The Cernan letter would likely sell for less than $100 in today's market. A fully handwritten letter by Armstrong could fetch better than $5K. It will be interesting to see what his signed materials do in value now that he is gone. He essentially stopped signing for collectors over ten years ago.
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Well, stay tuned to "Pawn Stars". Someone's bound to show up with one. :)
 
I do know the things that I considered to be interesting, but not all that important to me in my younger years, many of them have been fished out of drawers and boxes, have been framed and are now displayed proudly in my den or other places in my home.

When you get older, you will be surprised how much meaning an old snapshot, folded piece of paper, award or diploma might have for you, and how little meaning money has in comparison.

Trading parts of your life and memories for money or things will definitely be a regret in later years.

-John
 
Wasn't it true that these guys actually didn't expect to make it back?
 
rotorhead1026 said:
Well, stay tuned to "Pawn Stars". Someone's bound to show up with one. :)
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There has been a BRISK business in Armstrong autographs on eBay for the past 10 years. Unfortunately, 75% of the ones offered are either forgeries, photocopies, or "autopens". Most of the forgeries are accompanied by Certificates of Authenticity, frequently from "professional forensic document examiners".

eBay couldn't care less. They get their commission either way.
 
EppyGA said:
Wasn't it true that these guys actually didn't expect to make it back?
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No, they expected to make it back and worked very hard training for every contingency they could think of. They did accept the risk that they may not make it back and went anyway. That was why they used pilots, not because they needed piloting skills per se, but rather because they needed people who were proven to be able to think in a high risk, high stress situation and come up with solutions. That was "The Right Stuff" referenced to, and the best place to find it was military test pilots preferably with some combat tours.
 
rotorhead1026 said:
Well, stay tuned to "Pawn Stars". Someone's bound to show up with one. :)
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Actually I watched one episode of Pawn Stars and someone walked in with a signed photograph of a Gemini-Titan launch and it was signed by many, many astronauts at the time of Gemini project, I think there was pretty much everybody signed on the photo who was a US astronaut at that time, one of the signature was Neil Armstrong's. The signatures were judged to be authentic and the value of the piece was estimated to be around $3000-$5000.
 
wby0nder said:
according to the movie anyway...
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No.. they really did. Only the fixed point of reference was the sun, not the earth. You can (or you used to be able to) buy a presentation CD on the Apollo 13 incident at the gift shop at JSC that spells out the everything that happened..
 
John Baker said:
Trading an important part of your life such as that for money would probably be one of your life's greatest regrets. You have had those letters for years, the money would last a few months at best. I know you would never sell such things, but it is easy to become blinded by money.
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Speaking as a collector of aviation artwork and memorabilia, I understand your sentiment.

On the other hand, too often I have found priceless bits of history (like this) underneath copies of old Life magazines in junk stores across the country. When I do, it is obvious that the original owners had passed away, and their heirs -- knowing not what they were doing -- had sold or given boxes of their relative's "stuff" away without knowing the value.

And that's when I buy it for three bucks.

So...is it better for the OP to sell his priceless piece to collectors NOW, and reap the reward? Or is it better to wait until his grandkids throw it in the dumpster twenty years after he's gone, having found all of his "junk" in the attic?
 
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