i witnessed a crash

SkyHog said:
Again, though, why not report it? That's most certainly a reportable accident not an incident. No one was hurt *this time,* and that's why we have the NTSB/FAA to ensure that the maximum learning can come out of every accident.

If the reason to not report it is because you are afraid the guy is going to get in trouble, that cuts back to the core of my original statement - do what's right, not what is most convenient.

EDIT: also - with no accident on the record, who's to say that nice E-AB doesn't get sold later as a "NO DAMAGE HISTORY" airplane? Now we're talking the potential for someone else, unrelated to the issue to begin with getting hosed.
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No, I didn't care if he got in trouble. The fact of the matter was that, as a pilot, he knew what his reporting obligations were. He was uninjured and able to do so. I wasn't trying to protect anybody. I simply didn't have anything to report other than "I heard a scraping noise and I looked over and this guy was sliding along on his spinner."

If the guy lies about the condition of his airplane, that's on him. Do you call carfax with the VIN number of every car that you see banged up along the side of the interstate? What if some teenager is the next person to buy that car and they lose control of it? What if it's not counted in the statistics produced by the NHTSA?
 
jason said:
If the guy lies about the condition of his airplane, that's on him. Do you call carfax with the VIN number of every car that you see banged up along the side of the interstate? What if some teenager is the next person to buy that car and they lose control of it? What if it's not counted in the statistics produced by the NHTSA?
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I don't think either of us is going to convince the other, but for what its worth, if I witness a car crash (different from seeing one after its happened), I do, in fact, report it to the police so that they can take as much detail as possible. I wouldn't see a car wrap into a tree in the middle of nowhere without injuries as a chance to say "Well, the guy's gotta report it himself." I'd offer to help the guy out of the situation with a ride into town, but I'd still report what I saw.

Edit: as a matter of fact:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39886
 
SkyHog said:
I don't think either of us is going to convince the other, but for what its worth, if I witness a car crash (different from seeing one after its happened), I do, in fact, report it to the police so that they can take as much detail as possible. I wouldn't see a car wrap into a tree in the middle of nowhere without injuries as a chance to say "Well, the guy's gotta report it himself." I'd offer to help the guy out of the situation with a ride into town, but I'd still report what I saw.

Edit: as a matter of fact:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39886
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And we did offer aid. We made sure that nobody was injured and helped clear the runway. This isn't some ol' boys club thing to me. It was simply a judgement call.

When I see impaired drivers I call the police. If I saw a pilot do something that I thought was stupid and displayed a lack of judgement, I'd likely report it...even if no accident came of it.
 
I witnessed a crash a couple of years back. An antique flipped over on its back landing when I was directly across from it on the taxiway. I punched the mike button and told the FBO to call 911, then pulled off the taxiway, unstrapped the Fly Baby, and went across to see if I could help the guy.

The plane had flipped over about half-way down a 3,300 foot runway, just past the center turnoff. He ended up half on the grass on the right-hand side. The pilot said he was unhurt, and extracted himself as I waited. I hung around a bit to see if there was anything else I could do, but the pilot's friends came out to help. I looked at the skid marks, prop cuts, and paint smears on the runway.

The fire department arrived a few minutes later, but they were unable to open the airport gate to access the crash site. A friend of mine let them in. A bit later, the city police showed up, and THEY weren't able to come in, either.

I didn't report the accident to the FAA, and probably wouldn't have myself, but figured the airport management would have called them. I called the local NTSB office a couple of days later, asked for the investigator on this case, told him I had witnessed the accident, and would he want a statement? He asked for an email message describing what I saw, and that was the end of it.

I mentioned the fact that the fire and police departments had been unable to access the airport...but didn't mention that the local flight school had continued to land its aircraft on the same runway with the wreckage and people.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
I witnessed a crash a couple of years back. An antique flipped over on its back landing when I was directly across from it on the taxiway. I punched the mike button and told the FBO to call 911, then pulled off the taxiway, unstrapped the Fly Baby, and went across to see if I could help the guy.

The plane had flipped over about half-way down a 3,300 foot runway, just past the center turnoff. He ended up half on the grass on the right-hand side. The pilot said he was unhurt, and extracted himself as I waited. I hung around a bit to see if there was anything else I could do, but the pilot's friends came out to help. I looked at the skid marks, prop cuts, and paint smears on the runway.

The fire department arrived a few minutes later, but they were unable to open the airport gate to access the crash site. A friend of mine let them in. A bit later, the city police showed up, and THEY weren't able to come in, either.

I didn't report the accident to the FAA, and probably wouldn't have myself, but figured the airport management would have called them. I called the local NTSB office a couple of days later, asked for the investigator on this case, told him I had witnessed the accident, and would he want a statement? He asked for an email message describing what I saw, and that was the end of it.

I mentioned the fact that the fire and police departments had been unable to access the airport...but didn't mention that the local flight school had continued to land its aircraft on the same runway with the wreckage and people.

Ron Wanttaja
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Wait if the plane crashed half way down then this flight school was landing with only one thousand feet of runway?
 
Read the OP the poster was taking a lesson. What's his instructor think? We don't need student pilots calling the FAA first time they see something new. And if there was cause to report it the FAA doesn't need to hear the story from a student if there was an instructor with the same POV. Just a case of the wanna tattles. You guys want to run around playing skycop its gonna backfire on ya someday. LAter I gotta run off and fire up the still before the sun rises.
 
SkyHog said:
If I see a person steal something, I'm not required to report that either, but being a decent human being means I will.

There's no judgment call here - no "tattling." You see something wrong, you report it.
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If you are reporting someone stealing something you are telling the police information they don't have. Telling the authorities what they already know is the whole point. Its just not necessary. What exactly are you going to tell them? "I saw this plane land behind the trees!" No kiddin well thanks for that info but we already had that, we talked to the pilot.

Could you call and report it? Sure. It would not be a problem, but in this case the OP has no relevant information that would help the investigation.
 
SkyHog said:
Again, though, why not report it? That's most certainly a reportable accident not an incident. No one was hurt *this time,* and that's why we have the NTSB/FAA to ensure that the maximum learning can come out of every accident.

If the reason to not report it is because you are afraid the guy is going to get in trouble, that cuts back to the core of my original statement - do what's right, not what is most convenient.

EDIT: also - with no accident on the record, who's to say that nice E-AB doesn't get sold later as a "NO DAMAGE HISTORY" airplane? Now we're talking the potential for someone else, unrelated to the issue to begin with getting hosed.
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Um, which airplane are you referring to when you say it's an accident? You'd be amazed at how bad an airplane can look and still not meet the mandatory reporting requirements, if there were no injuries.
 
jason said:
There is no designation that classifies somebody as an amateur pilot. You're either a pilot or you aren't. My certificate says that I am a pilot. I'm not sure that I've ever heard a pilot use the word amateur to describe another pilot. Nor have I heard many commercial pilots refer to themselves as "professional pilots" (a designation that also seems to be missing from the FARs).
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The only difference between professional and amateur is whether you get paid:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur

(and given how little some pro's are paid, it's a fine line indeed).
 
rpadula said:
The only difference between professional and amateur is whether you get paid:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur

(and given how little some pro's are paid, it's a fine line indeed).
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Oh, I know the non-aviation definition. It's just a pet peeve of mine to be called an amateur pilot. My wife referred to me as an amateur pilot early on when we were dating. I told her that my certificate doesn't say amateur...it says that I'm a certified pilot...just like anybody else.
 
jason said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Oh, I know the non-aviation definition. It's just a pet peeve of mine to be called an amateur pilot. My wife referred to me as an amateur pilot early on when we were dating. I told her that my certificate doesn't say amateur...it says that I'm a certified pilot...just like anybody else.
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Your a certificated pilot, not a certified pilot. Like it or not, the dictionary describes amateur as someone who doesn't receive pay for what they do. Sounds like a private pilot to me. And judging by some of them I've seen, amateur might be a compliment (not directed at anyone particular in this thread).
 
SkyHog said:
EDIT: also - with no accident on the record, who's to say that nice E-AB doesn't get sold later as a "NO DAMAGE HISTORY" airplane? Now we're talking the potential for someone else, unrelated to the issue to begin with getting hosed.
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But you can't do anything about that, no matter who you call. Starting an investigation today is not going to prevent someone from committing fraud at a later date when selling the aircraft. The N-number is traceable, sure - but N-numbers can be changed quickly and easily, we see it all the time. You're treading dangerously close to "thought police" with that line of logic.

"Hey, that guy might commit fraud someday, I'm going to report him for bad pilot technique!"

I have a low-pressure natural gas line buried across my property. Has the thought of tapping into that line for free gas crossed my mind? Sure has. Is it a crime? Sure is. Have I done it? Nope. Can I be acused of anything? Nope. But in your mind I'm just as guilty as the guy who hasn't sold the "No Damage History" airplane yet. You gonna call the gas company and report me?
 
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SkyHog said:
This entire thread reeks of "Good ol' boyness!"
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My thoughts exactly.

To the OP, there is nothing wrong with calling the FAA and simply leaving your contact info in case they feel the need to reach out for more info. You aren't 'snitching' or getting into anyone's bidness....you are simply providing contact info IF they need it. Chances are they won't, but you never know.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Your a certificated pilot, not a certified pilot. Like it or not, the dictionary describes amateur as someone who doesn't receive pay for what they do. Sounds like a private pilot to me. And judging by some of them I've seen, amateur might be a compliment (not directed at anyone particular in this thread).
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Fair enough. While we're at it …it's "you're a certificated pilot" not "your a certificated pilot".

Are you really going to equate skill to pay in aviation? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'll see your assertation and raise you a boatload of commercial pilots that were never allowed to fly a flight that wasn't on their syllabus. Many who probably hadn't flown a real honest-to-goodness post-PPL solo cross country until they were forced to as part of their commercial requirements. I've also known CFIIs that had never flown in actual nor had they flown any approaches away from their home field.

There is an entire generation of regional first officers that likely wouldn't be able to execute a cross country flight if it weren't for their dispatchers. Be careful what you're asserting. Look around yourself and really take a look at some of the commercial pilots that you know before you equate skill and judgement with pay.
 
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kimberlyanne546 said:
Wait if the plane crashed half way down then this flight school was landing with only one thousand feet of runway?
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3300-foot runway, midpoint turnoff, the Stinson crashed just past the turnoff. The FBO's planes were landing in the 1600 feet before the turnoff, hugging the right side of the runway (the crashed plane was on the left).

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
3300-foot runway, midpoint turnoff, the Stinson crashed just past the turnoff. The FBO's planes were landing in the 1600 feet before the turnoff, hugging the right side of the runway (the crashed plane was on the left).

Ron Wanttaja
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Is that legal?
 
flyingmoose said:
I don't know what would make it illegal. Sounds like it was a uncontrolled field.
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Sorry, not trying to start an argument. I fly out of an untowered airport and during my primary training, my instructor taught me go arounds. One main reason was always "what if the guy on final, one plane ahead of you, crashes onto the runway and then leaves the runway UNUSABLE?" He said this a lot to me so it kind of stuck in my brain that if the entire runway is not clear of obstructions (such as a plane) I should not land there.

Kimberly
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Sorry, not trying to start an argument. I fly out of an untowered airport and during my primary training, my instructor taught me go arounds. One main reason was always "what if the guy on final, one plane ahead of you, crashes onto the runway and then leaves the runway UNUSABLE?" He said this a lot to me so it kind of stuck in my brain that if the entire runway is not clear of obstructions (such as a plane) I should not land there.

Kimberly
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Well, you'd need a good reason to. Let's put it this way. There is nothing saying you can't. But if you do...and something goes wrong...you'll probably have a lot of explaining to do.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You two sound like you must be real fine upstanding members of your respective communities!
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probably more upstanding than you,(pretty obvious since you went straight to personal attacks)

I don't contact the police or government if there is nothing good that can come out of it, or no law to be broken by not talking to them, you keep up the good work friendo
 
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SkyHog said:
This entire thread reeks of "Good ol' boyness!"

"I tell you what, moonshinin' ain't happening round hear, now, right, boy?"

Or is it more of a "snitches get stitches" deal?

Either way - this is one of the classic cases of doing the right thing, where there's absolutely no reason not to. I said it earlier, and I'm going to reiterate, I'm extremely disappointed in some of the things I've read in this thread over the past few days from a lot of people that I respect deeply.
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Would you call the police if you knew somebody who ran someone over while they were drunk or high? I would.
 
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dennyleeb said:
probably more upstanding than you,(pretty obvious since you went straight to personal attacks)

I don't contact the police or government if there is nothing good that can come out of it, or no law to be broken by not talking to them, you keep up the good work friendo
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If you consider that a personal attack Denny.....

francis.jpg
 
What are glider pilots supposed to do? What if weather or fuel preclude flying somewhere else?
kimberlyanne546 said:
Sorry, not trying to start an argument. I fly out of an untowered airport and during my primary training, my instructor taught me go arounds. One main reason was always "what if the guy on final, one plane ahead of you, crashes onto the runway and then leaves the runway UNUSABLE?" He said this a lot to me so it kind of stuck in my brain that if the entire runway is not clear of obstructions (such as a plane) I should not land there.

Kimberly
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kimberlyanne546 said:
Sorry, not trying to start an argument. I fly out of an untowered airport and during my primary training, my instructor taught me go arounds. One main reason was always "what if the guy on final, one plane ahead of you, crashes onto the runway and then leaves the runway UNUSABLE?" He said this a lot to me so it kind of stuck in my brain that if the entire runway is not clear of obstructions (such as a plane) I should not land there.

Kimberly
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Good I am glad that your instructor taught you go-arounds. Probably good advice for you. In this case the guy was already crashed, so no need to wonder if he will crash or not. If you don't feel comfortable landing in this particular situation, nobody will fault you for going around and going somewhere else. The only thing I responded to was you asking if it was legal or not? :thumbsup:
 
flyingmoose said:
Good I am glad that your instructor taught you go-arounds. Probably good advice for you. In this case the guy was already crashed, so no need to wonder if he will crash or not. If you don't feel comfortable landing in this particular situation, nobody will fault you for going around and going somewhere else. The only thing I responded to was you asking if it was legal or not? :thumbsup:
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Right, I understand, I guess I took my instructor saying "unusable" to mean "illegal" but what he probably meant to say was "not recommended".
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Right, I understand, I guess I took my instructor saying "unusable" to mean "illegal" but what he probably meant to say was "not recommended".
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Another good reason to stay sharp on short field landings.. Sometimes things happen and you need to land SOON....

Ben.
 
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