i witnessed a crash

Good Grief! How can such a simple question cause so much controversy? This is such a non-issue. Report it, don't report it. What's the difference. If a call will help, they'll say "Thanx. Have a nice day." If it doesn't, they'll log it and ignore it...
 
Good Grief! How can such a simple question cause so much controversy? This is such a non-issue. Report it, don't report it. What's the difference. If a call will help, they'll say "Thanx. Have a nice day." If it doesn't, they'll log it and ignore it...

You look at this waay too simple. Nothing is small enough that POA can't turn it into the rise of communism, moral decay or something to do with the obama administration.
 
You look at this waay too simple. Nothing is small enough that POA can't turn it into the rise of communism, moral decay or something to do with the obama administration.

As you can tell by my Post-total, I'm fairly new. But I have noticed that...

As Rodney would say, "Why can't we all just get along?" :cheers:
 
As you can tell by my Post-total, I'm fairly new. But I have noticed that...

As Rodney would say, "Why can't we all just get along?" :cheers:


Hmmm. I wonder what kind of trouble ol Rodney King is in this week.:dunno::dunno::dunno:..... :wink2:

Ben.
 
And I have to share the sky with some of you clowns? Makes me wonder what other things you do that are blatantly wrong. How many regulations you decide to break because "they don't apply with me"

You can be dang sure I would have reported it.
 
If you did/do report it, what are you going to tell them? I saw it go down behind some trees? Do you have anything that would be helpful?
 
And I have to share the sky with some of you clowns? Makes me wonder what other things you do that are blatantly wrong. How many regulations you decide to break because "they don't apply with me"

You can be dang sure I would have reported it.
What regulation requires you as a witness to report it?
 
There is also the matter of 'local' jurisdiction(s). In Michigan, the State Police
must be notified all incidents/accidents. They do not require that witnesses
report or cooperate.
 
Isn't that reason enough? Or to protect any other potential buyer, the current owner, any passengers (s)he might take up, and promote a general safety-conscious attitude? In another thread, there's shock that someone might fly a plane with a known deficiency without a special ferry permit. Here, we've got a possibly damaged aircraft with the potential of the damage being swept under the rug, and everyone is advocating to turn their head and ignore it.

Let me put it this way: If you witnessed damage to a commercial aircraft you weren't a passenger on...say, a baggage cart rammed into an engine nacelle... but the cart driver didn't say anything and nobody else noticed before departure. Would you keep your mouth shut, and if not, why is this any different?

What are you talking about? There's been no information that anyone knew anything about any potential unsafe condition or damage to an aircraft. The OP said the climbout appeared "lazy" and the engine "was screaming" - both very subjective statements and quite normal for certain aircraft. The only thing that could be pointed to as "nonstandard" was a stuck mike, but we don't even know if that came from the aircraft in question, or any aircraft for that matter.

If this had ended with a smoking hole in the ground, yes I would speak up and tell what I saw. Since there is a walking, talking pilot and a bent-up airplane, they can get everything they want to know from that. Given my 'druthers, I'd prefer the gummint didn't even know I was in the air, at any airport, in any airplane, at any point in time. Making your presence known at this point cannot contribute anything to the investagation - but opens you up to an investigation of your own.
 
What regulation requires a person to use common sense?

Common sense is MYOB. Reporting contributes nothing. Zero zilch nada. Some of you sound like school girls squealing~ I have a secret, I have a secret. Pathetic.
 
And I have to share the sky with some of you clowns? Makes me wonder what other things you do that are blatantly wrong. How many regulations you decide to break because "they don't apply with me"

You can be dang sure I would have reported it.

What regulation requires you as a witness to report it?

What regulation requires a person to use common sense?
You called me a clown, you said I was doing something blatantly wrong, and asked what other regulations I decide to break...implying I break regulations.

I ask you what regulation I'm breaking and you can't produce it. Who is the clown now?
 
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To: KSCessnaDriver (COM SEL/MEL/LTA-Airship, Private SES, CFI/CFII)
Ooh. may I go ride with you when you come to Bridgeport? Please, please, please.
- Peggy
 
You called me a clown, you said I was doing something blatantly wrong, and asked what other regulations I decide to break...implying I break regulations.

I ask you what regulation I'm breaking and you can't produce it. Who is the clown now?

I did nothing of the like, unlike you like to assume. Apparently, you used your mat today to do so.

office_space_kit_mat.jpg
 
Common sense is MYOB. Reporting contributes nothing. Zero zilch nada. Some of you sound like school girls squealing~ I have a secret, I have a secret. Pathetic.

So you see the aircraft go down, and automatically assume there is nothing wrong, nothing to see. So when there's a single car crash on the highway, you just drive on by and don't report anything?

Maybe there is a real difference between amateur pilots and professional pilots these days.
 
What does calling the FAA days later have to do with calling 911 immediately following an accident? Your mind has slowed down to match your aircraft.
So you see the aircraft go down, and automatically assume there is nothing wrong, nothing to see. So when there's a single car crash on the highway, you just drive on by and don't report anything?

Maybe there is a real difference between amateur pilots and professional pilots these days.
 
Ooh. may I go ride with you when you come to Bridgeport? Please, please, please.
- Peggy

I've never been to Bridgeport. I know that MetLife Snoopy 1 spends a lot of time there, but I missed it this summer on other blimps. I'm not on MetLife right now, and don't know if/when I'll be back on it.
 
What does calling the FAA days later have to do with calling 911 immediately following an accident? Your mind has slowed down to match your aircraft.

Who said anything about calling the FAA days later. I'd make the 911 call, followed by a call to the FAA. Days later, yes, its probably out of the question. Keep it up with the personal insults. I remember why I don't frequent this board, full of pompous know-it-alls and it generally mirrors the redboard and the moderation of the redboard.
 
So you see the aircraft go down, and automatically assume there is nothing wrong, nothing to see. So when there's a single car crash on the highway, you just drive on by and don't report anything?

Maybe there is a real difference between amateur pilots and professional pilots these days.

My certificate doesn't say amateur on it. Does yours say professional?

You never answered the question. Which regulation would be broken by failing to report this incident.
 
So when there's a single car crash on the highway, you just drive on by and don't report anything?

If there is reason to believe there are no or minor injuries; and/or proper authorities are already on scene; then the answer is :yesnod:

Your hypothetical scenario does not have anything in common with what we are discussing here. But then again, you already knew that...:yesnod:
 
My certificate doesn't say amateur on it. Does yours say professional?

You never answered the question. Which regulation would be broken by failing to report this incident.

No, but it doesn't need to. It's plainly obvious who the professionals and who the amateurs are these days.

I never said that a regulation was broken by not reporting the accident. It was assumed that I said that, but I never did. Somebody tried to read between the lines of what I wrote and put words in my mouth.
 
No, but it doesn't need to. It's plainly obvious who the professionals and who the amateurs are these days.

I never said that a regulation was broken by not reporting the accident. It was assumed that I said that, but I never did. Somebody tried to read between the lines of what I wrote and put words in my mouth.

There is no designation that classifies somebody as an amateur pilot. You're either a pilot or you aren't. My certificate says that I am a pilot. I'm not sure that I've ever heard a pilot use the word amateur to describe another pilot. Nor have I heard many commercial pilots refer to themselves as "professional pilots" (a designation that also seems to be missing from the FARs).
 
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No, but it doesn't need to. It's plainly obvious who the professionals and who the amateurs are these days.

The first thing you should do (professional OR amateur) upon finding yourself in a hole, is to quit diggin'.
:popcorn:
 
It's the internet, sigh!
 
Who said anything about calling the FAA days later.
The OP. That's what his question was.

what a way to start off the new year. i had a lesson today and we were at our "training" airport kijd. there was an amphib there that looked like he was doing touch and go's thing was his go just didn't seem to be there. we did a full stop landing taxied back to the runway took off and still almost caught up with him on the downwind. i was just about to turn to final when he touched down and i thought he was going to stay down buy he took back off. as we touched down we could see something wasn't quite right. his climb out was for lack of a better word lazy. also during this whole time it seemed like there was someones mic keyed open and you could hear a screaming engine the whole time. well after his "lazy" takeoff he just never seemed to gain altitude and he eventually went into a nose down bank till he disappeared behind the trees. we parked the plane and ran towards the woods where it looked like he went in. turns out he made it into the reservoir on the other side of the tree line. the plane was bent up pretty good but the good news is the pilot was just "shaken up" according to the news. here's the question am i obligated by any rule to come forward as a witness?
 
Good thing this question wasn't posted on the Red Board.
 
what a way to start off the new year. i had a lesson today and we were at our "training" airport kijd. there was an amphib there that looked like he was doing touch and go's thing was his go just didn't seem to be there. we did a full stop landing taxied back to the runway took off and still almost caught up with him on the downwind. i was just about to turn to final when he touched down and i thought he was going to stay down buy he took back off. as we touched down we could see something wasn't quite right. his climb out was for lack of a better word lazy. also during this whole time it seemed like there was someones mic keyed open and you could hear a screaming engine the whole time. well after his "lazy" takeoff he just never seemed to gain altitude and he eventually went into a nose down bank till he disappeared behind the trees. we parked the plane and ran towards the woods where it looked like he went in. turns out he made it into the reservoir on the other side of the tree line. the plane was bent up pretty good but the good news is the pilot was just "shaken up" according to the news. here's the question am i obligated by any rule to come forward as a witness?


I have been witness to several Aircraft accidents/incidents in my years. Not once did I feel the need to report the obvious to the FAA. Twice I have been requested to give a written report to the FSDO of what I did see. On one of those I knew the pilot that was involved well enough to call him and tell him what I was reporting and why. "Because the FAA had requested it."
 
What regulation requires you as a witness to report it?

If I see a person steal something, I'm not required to report that either, but being a decent human being means I will.

There's no judgment call here - no "tattling." You see something wrong, you report it.
 
This entire thread reeks of "Good ol' boyness!"

"I tell you what, moonshinin' ain't happening round hear, now, right, boy?"

Or is it more of a "snitches get stitches" deal?

Either way - this is one of the classic cases of doing the right thing, where there's absolutely no reason not to. I said it earlier, and I'm going to reiterate, I'm extremely disappointed in some of the things I've read in this thread over the past few days from a lot of people that I respect deeply.
 
If I see a person steal something, I'm not required to report that either, but being a decent human being means I will.

There's no judgment call here - no "tattling." You see something wrong, you report it.

I still don't get what is "wrong" in this situation. You have an airplane that wasn't able to successfully complete a takeoff. He suffered a forced landing. He's alive and is able to be interviewed. The airplane is available and in (mostly) one piece. The proper authorities are involved. What is it about this situation that makes it a moral imperative that it is reported by you? What are you reporting?

You: "A plane crashed"
FAA: "Yeah, we know. The NTSB has investigated it. They've interviewed the pilot and surveyed the wreckage."

You: "He was having a hard time gaining altitude and the engine was screaming."
FAA: "Um, yeah. We know that as we've already interviewed the pilot. Besides, even as a trained and certified pilot, your eyewitness accounts are bound to be biased and mostly incorrect."

You: "Ok, I wanted you to know. It is my moral obligation."
FAA: "Uh, ok..."

The bottom line is that it's always going to be a judgement call. Do I believe that one should never report anything in any situation? Hell no. Do I believe that if I were in the OP's shoes I would see no reason to report this to anybody? Hell yes.

As a matter of fact, I did find myself in the OP's shoes recently and I saw no reason to report anything to anybody. The pilot and his passenger were uninjured (except the pilot's pride). The E-AB airplane was damaged (but repairable). There was no other property damage. Etc. Now, if the pilot had crawled out of the airplane with and empty bottle of Jack Daniels, I probably would have called somebody. It's always a judgement call. Just witnessing an incident does not mean that I need to be involved in any other way.
 
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I'd be interested to see the distribution of opinions here against airplane ownership and pilot experience.
 
I still don't get what is "wrong" in this situation. You have an airplane that wasn't able to successfully complete a takeoff. He suffered a forced landing. He's alive and is able to be interviewed. The airplane is available and in (mostly) one piece. The proper authorities are involved. What is it about this situation that makes it a moral imperative that it is reported by you? What are you reporting?

You: "A plane crashed"
FAA: "Yeah, we know. The NTSB has investigated it. They've interviewed the pilot and surveyed the wreckage."

You: "He was having a hard time gaining altitude and the engine was screaming."
FAA: "Um, yeah. We know that as we've already interviewed the pilot. Besides, even as a trained and certified pilot, your eyewitness accounts are bound to be biased and mostly incorrect."

You: "Ok, I wanted you to know. It is my moral obligation."
FAA: "Uh, ok..."

The bottom line is that it's always going to be a judgement call. Do I believe that one should never report anything in any situation? Hell no. Do I believe that if I were in the OP's shoes I would just mind my own business. Hell yes.

I would think it would go more like:

You: I witnessed a plane going down. Here's the details (insert details here)
Them: We have already begun the investigation. Thanks for your report.

And that's it. Why is that a bad thing to do? Certainly, if you see something, and you report it, one of the facts you report could be the difference between the NTSB putting out yet another "Pilot failed to...." and a more useful report that actually has some details and recommendations.

Or maybe not. But they should have all the information they can get.
 
I would think it would go more like:

You: I witnessed a plane going down. Here's the details (insert details here)
Them: We have already begun the investigation. Thanks for your report.

And that's it. Why is that a bad thing to do? Certainly, if you see something, and you report it, one of the facts you report could be the difference between the NTSB putting out yet another "Pilot failed to...." and a more useful report that actually has some details and recommendations.

Or maybe not. But they should have all the information they can get.

You caught me pre-edit. I added more details to my opinion on the subject to my previous post.

The thing is that you don't really know the details. After looking things over in the previous incident that we witnessed, we had a pretty good idea of what happened...but it was all just guesswork. Perhaps you thought he was being a ****ty pilot but, instead, his carb heat cable broke and his engine wasn't producing full power. What details are you going to add that the pilot himself wouldn't be able to add?
 
As a matter of fact, I did find myself in the OP's shoes recently and I saw no reason to report anything to anybody. The pilot and his passenger were uninjured (except the pilot's pride). The E-AB airplane was damaged (but repairable). There was no other property damage. Etc. Now, if the pilot had crawled out of the airplane with and empty bottle of Jack Daniels, I probably would have called somebody. It's always a judgement call. Just witnessing an incident does not mean that I need to be involved in any other way.

Again, though, why not report it? That's most certainly a reportable accident not an incident. No one was hurt *this time,* and that's why we have the NTSB/FAA to ensure that the maximum learning can come out of every accident.

If the reason to not report it is because you are afraid the guy is going to get in trouble, that cuts back to the core of my original statement - do what's right, not what is most convenient.

EDIT: also - with no accident on the record, who's to say that nice E-AB doesn't get sold later as a "NO DAMAGE HISTORY" airplane? Now we're talking the potential for someone else, unrelated to the issue to begin with getting hosed.
 
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You caught me pre-edit. I added more details to my opinion on the subject to my previous post.

The thing is that you don't really know the details. After looking things over in the previous incident that we witnessed, we had a pretty good idea of what happened...but it was all just guesswork. Perhaps you thought he was being a ****ty pilot but, instead, his carb heat cable broke and his engine wasn't producing full power. What details are you going to add that the pilot himself wouldn't be able to add?

The goal wouldn't be to tell the FAA that he was a "****ty pilot," it would be to tell the FAA "I witnessed a plane go down at xx:xx p.m., and ran over to help. There were no injuries, but the plane looked pretty banged up. Oh, there were a few planes in the pattern, and the wind was xxx@xx when the plane went down. It sounded like it wasn't producing full power, and looked the same way."

Maybe the FAA/NTSB already knows all of that. Maybe, all they got from the pilot was "I took off, and the plane just quit going." and no other details.

The point is that, if you don't contribute, and a key fact goes unreported, the root cause may not be accurate.
 
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