I stood my ground.....

flhrci

flhrci

Final Approach
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Jan 26, 2007
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Groveport, OH
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David
I had an 8AM flight this morning to do some video stuff for the county people. The plane (172M) was left out over night from a late flight last night and is normally put in the hangar. The temp went down to 25 so there was frost all over it. I got there at 0730 and asked the line guy to either put it in line with the sunshine or put it in the hangar. In the hangar it went for about 15 mins. It was all melted. He put the plane back in the shade while I was inside. Went right back out and there was a nice rough ice all over it except the windshield.

The sun was just starting to come up at this point. The line guy is a recreationally licensed pilot and could not get what the problem was. Basically tried to gently coerce me into taking my two pax up. That wasn't happening. We gave up after about 45 mins as too much of it was still frozen despite the sun finally getting on it. Ended up taking till 0930 to get fully melted.

I have never had any one try to get me to take a risk like that. Put the flight off till Noon and was able to do it. No one harmed, no aircraft harmed. No more than the normal risk taken.

Whether or not I did the right thing or not doesn't matter. I made the PIC decision I needed to make. Sometimes I second guess myself on cancelling flights, but this felt right to me. I hope all of us make good decisions like this.

David
 
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Sounds like a no brainer to me.....good call
 
Good call indeed. Never let somebody else talk you into a flight you're not comfortable with -- especially some guy who's going to stay on the ground and have nothing invested in the outcome.
 
What a jackalope. And to think, on said line guy's resume he'll probably put something fancy down for his position responsibilities like, "Helped ensure safe operations of aircraft and pilots".
 
If I refused to take off until all the ice was off my plane I'd never fly in winter. Sublimation is the best deicer there is. :eek:
 
Stewartb said:
If I refused to take off until all the ice was off my plane I'd never fly in winter. Sublimation is the best deicer there is. :eek:
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I agree. Took longer than the passengers or I had time to wait. Was up against another reservation. No way to clean it all off the wings with a rag. Made what I felt was the best choice. Usually the planes are in the hangar and this is not an issue.

David
 
Get a yard spray bottle (the kind you pump) and fill it with TKS fluid.
 
I would have removed the frost and left earlier.
 
flhrci said:
I agree. Took longer than the passengers or I had time to wait. Was up against another reservation. No way to clean it all off the wings with a rag. Made what I felt was the best choice. Usually the planes are in the hangar and this is not an issue.

David
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I don't mind being an occasional test pilot but I won't do it with passengers. It was your call to make and I'd have made the same one. But I might have taken a spin around the patch solo to burn it off, too. :wink2:

Frost on the wings is a good topic for argument.
 
You might just have taught a good lesson to the line guy about decision making.
 
RV anti-freeze in a stainless steel garden sprayer. Take the pump off the top and put the container on the stove and get it as hot as you think you can transport to the plane. It holds the heat quite a long while. Spray HOT fluid on the iced wings and the ice will pop right off. Just like at the big airports it isn't about the de-icer fluid, it's about the de-icer fluid being hot.
 
Your call,your the PIC,it's your butt that's going to be in the airplane. Hope the line guy learned something from the incident.
 
Frost can be a pain in the a$$.. Buy a small container of TKS fluid or have an FBO that sells it fill up a spray bottle for you to keep it handy. My Cirrus uses TKS so I keep a 50 gal drum around, but the stuff will make quick work of frost plus it will hang around for a bit on the wings while you taxi.
 
FastEddieB said:
I tried that on my Cirrus, and cold TKS fluid seemed to do nothing to frozen dew.

22130835139_6b985d98f8.jpg


Might have some effect on frost, but in either case would work far better if warmed.
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It has worked every time I have used it. How cold was it that day?
 
JasonM said:
It has worked every time I have used it. How cold was it that day?
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Probably upper teens or in the 20's.

Like I said, this wasn't frost - it was large globs of what must have been frozen dew. And cold TKS fluid did nothing.

22130833608_8ba270db22_c.jpg


As an aside, none of the metal planes on the ramp had any ice on them at all. Not sure if the difference was the composite or the smoother surface on the Cirrus.
 
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flhrci said:
I had an 8AM flight this morning to do some video stuff for the county people. The plane (172M) was left out over night from a late flight last night and is normally put in the hangar. The temp went down to 25 so there was frost all over it. I got there at 0730 and asked the line guy to either put it in line with the sunshine or put it in the hangar. In the hangar it went for about 15 mins. It was all melted. He put the plane back in the shade while I was inside. Went right back out and there was a nice rough ice all over it except the windshield.

The sun was just starting to come up at this point. The line guy is a recreationally licensed pilot and could not get what the problem was. Basically tried to gently coerce me into taking my two pax up. That wasn't happening. We gave up after about 45 mins as too much of it was still frozen despite the sun finally getting on it. Ended up taking till 0930 to get fully melted.

I have never had any one try to get me to take a risk like that. Put the flight off till Noon and was able to do it. No one harmed, no aircraft harmed. No more than the normal risk taken.

Whether or not I did the right thing or not doesn't matter. I made the PIC decision I needed to make. Sometimes I second guess myself on cancelling flights, but this felt right to me. I hope all of us make good decisions like this.

David
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Good job, David. I think the line guy needs some education. I wouldn't hesitate to let him know the dangers of frost or ice on the wings.
 
FastEddieB said:
Probably upper teens or in the 20's.

Like I said, this wasn't frost - it was large globs of what must have been frozen dew. And cold TKS fluid did nothing.

22130833608_8ba270db22_c.jpg


As an aside, none of the metal planes on the ramp had any ice on them at all. Not sure if the difference was the composite or the smoother surface on the Cirrus.
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That right there is an unairworthy wing! Good Job! -Skip
 
I was a student pilot heading out for my long solo cross country (1974). The C-150M had frost on the wings. Turned it around to get the sun and waited. It turned to liquid so I launched.
About 30 min later I look at the trailing edge of the wing to see an icicle.
 
What is this "frost' of which you speak?

A/C is still whirring away in the hangar, and we just landed whilst wearing sandals, shorts and t-shirts.
:)

Come see us! :)

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
FastEddieB said:
Probably upper teens or in the 20's.

Like I said, this wasn't frost - it was large globs of what must have been frozen dew. And cold TKS fluid did nothing.

22130833608_8ba270db22_c.jpg


As an aside, none of the metal planes on the ramp had any ice on them at all. Not sure if the difference was the composite or the smoother surface on the Cirrus.
Click to expand...

Wow!! Well, I have not had frost that bad yet! :yikes: I can see why with that photo!! Sheesh..
 
Ever try the biodegradable RV antifreeze? You can stick it in a 1 gallon pump sprayer.

It's animal safe too!
 
Ahh... Okay. Certainly a good call, but not really a hard decision to make.
 
Depends on the wing for me.
 
Completely removing hard frost and ice isn't always practical or possible. Sometimes scraping it smooth is all a guy can do. Often times wing covers freeze to the wings and require us to "rip" the nylon fabric off the wing tops leaving a thin layer of hard ice that now has an imprint of the fine nylon fabric weave. A scraper won't do anything to that. What to do? Wait for spring? And maybe the biggest pain is mesh wing covers. Guaranteed to provide a pilot with a honeycomb pattern of frost, snow, and ice, depending on the weather. Managing frost and ice is part of flying in the cold. Dealing with airplane prep is a pain but the flying part of winter ops is some of the best there is. Cold air makes more horsepower and more lift. The available LZs are limitless with skis. Fun stuff.
 
With temps nearly at or above freezing, I'll use hot tap water + towel wipe to defrost an airplane quickly. 2-3 gallons jugs do the trick, not too much water and wipe it all up immediately. You have to be extra careful around the fuel tanks, that's the one area that it will quickly refreeze when the temps are above 0.

Yes, if you do this in Alaska, you're making a Popsicle. I don't live there, I live where you come out in morning and your breath can melt the frost.
 
bflynn said:
With temps nearly at or above freezing, I'll use hot tap water + towel wipe to defrost an airplane quickly. 2-3 gallons jugs do the trick, not too much water and wipe it all up immediately.
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Yes, that worked for me. Except I got all wet and just about froze. Especially my hands.

Another variant, if you have the bucket of hot water: use garbage bags. Which the FBO probably has, if you don't. Almost 1 gallon of hot water in a bag, and then just set it on the wing or other surface. When the temp is near freezing this melts light frost nicely. You still need the towel for drying. I still get wet, but not as badly.
 
jesse said:
Depends on the wing for me.
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I'll repeat what I just said...and add more..since people don't seem to be getting that there are some wings you can ignore some frost on and there are some wings you'd be a damn fool to ignore frost on.

Most of the wings that the Alaska folks are being macho about you could cover in carpet and the damn thing would fly fine.

However there are some wings where ice contamination can really ruin your day. You'll melt it off, quite nicely, when you fireball the airplane after takeoff.
 
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