BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
I just want to make sure I'm reading the following notams right:
I have a question about these NOTAMs
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MD11Pilot
Line Up and Wait
Looks like the runway was deiced. The 5/5/5 is not bad. The 3/3/3 is slick
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's actually 1/8" wet snow on top of compacted snow in the first example, and 1/4" dry snow on top of compacted snow in the second.
The real question is, how useful is the information?
midwestpa24
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Other than as noted by Maule, you are correct. Welcome to the new world of TALPA and the RCAM matrix!
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Well, runway 22 right looks better than 22 left just because the remaining amount of snow left on the runway is much less than the amount remaining on runway 22 left, which says four inches. Beyond this, I guess it could be used for runway analysis to calculate the maximum allowable takeoff and landing weight.
midwestpa24
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The thing to look at is the numbers 5/5/5 versus 3/3/3. The scale for those numbers is 0-6, 0 being Nil braking action, 6 being dry braking action. These are replacing the reported braking actions and MU friction values we used to use.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Oh I see, I was trying to figure out what those numbers actually meant. I figured it had something to do with the typical braking action report. It only confirms my judgement in runway 22 right being the better runway to use, since the braking action is reported as 'good' or dry.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yea 6 is good, 0 is bad. The reason for the 3 numbers is braking action for touchdown, mid and roll out on the runway.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Yep, good, fair, poor and nil were just not confusing enough.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Gotta support the pulp industry so the Feds use more paper!
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Well defining each number as 'touchdown', 'mid' and 'roll out' makes it a little easier to understand. Its better than saying "first third" like some people were describing it.
I define each number as: 0 = nil, 1 = poor, 2 = fair, 3 = good, 4 = normal, and number 6 can be considered as being fantastically dry.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sure, I can go into my contaminated runway charts, and compute a landing distance for compacted snow, and I can compute a landing distance for 1/4" of dry snow, but 1/4" of dry snow on top of compacted snow is not something my charts can do.
So naturally they decided to take away the one piece of useful information that was left...when they gave mu readings, I could convert that into an adjusted landing distance. With the 1-6 numbers, I can't.
midwestpa24
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midwestpa24
Call it thirds, call it what you like, the numbers still mean the same.
As for your personal scale, I would say its a little optimistic. Here is mine:
0 = NIL
1 = Really Poor
2 = Less Poor
3 = Getting Better
4 = Medium "The New Fair"
5 = Almost there
6 = Dry!!!
But really, here is the official RCAM chart for those who are interested.
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midwestpa24
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As the guy that issues the SNOTAMs, you are preaching to the choir. I get where they are trying to go even if they are taking the long way around. The end idea is that the RCAM numbers (the 0-6) will correlate with manufacturer performance charts and be easier than the MU values which technically range from 0-100. In my experience pilots want to know one thing, is it safe to land or not?
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Thanks, this chart can be very useful.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
I have another NOTAM question concerning inoperative approach light systems, particularly the ones below:
So the first NOTAM says that the approach light system is out of service from 2016, Dec 28th, 1928 Zulu - 2017, Jan 31, 2100 Zulu.
The second NOTAM however, seems to be saying that for runway 32 the approach lights are out of service except the medium intensity lights will be on continuously. Runway 32 only has a MALSR approach light system so its not really making sense to me. How can it be inoperative yet on continuously at the same time? Is it trying to say that only the runway alignment indicator lights in particular are on continuously? Or is it just saying that the system will no longer be pilot controlled for the duration given?
ILS OR LOC RWY 32: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1701/pdf/00278IL32.PDF
So the first NOTAM says that the approach light system is out of service from 2016, Dec 28th, 1928 Zulu - 2017, Jan 31, 2100 Zulu.
The second NOTAM however, seems to be saying that for runway 32 the approach lights are out of service except the medium intensity lights will be on continuously. Runway 32 only has a MALSR approach light system so its not really making sense to me. How can it be inoperative yet on continuously at the same time? Is it trying to say that only the runway alignment indicator lights in particular are on continuously? Or is it just saying that the system will no longer be pilot controlled for the duration given?
ILS OR LOC RWY 32: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1701/pdf/00278IL32.PDF
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
My guess is the MALSR is inop but the runway edge lights, etc are operable.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
I don't think so. The only way this makes sense is if its saying that the pilot controlled lighting feature is no longer in service because that's what the negative D symbol means in the airport diagram of the IAP. Instead of it being pilot controlled they will be on continuously for the time period. Check out the video below at about the 5:20 mark and you'll see.
Approach Plate Airport Diagram:
denverpilot
Tied Down
I would love to see a statistical analysis of how many reports in the "new and improved" system end up being repetitive numbers like 5/5/5, 3/3/3, 2/2/2, etc...
Because when I first saw this stupid thing I thought... "Nobody's going to bother making them all different numbers unless they're using a machine that spits them out for them as they drive the truck down the runway with the test thing being towed behind it."
Because people are lazy.
Because when I first saw this stupid thing I thought... "Nobody's going to bother making them all different numbers unless they're using a machine that spits them out for them as they drive the truck down the runway with the test thing being towed behind it."
Because people are lazy.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
But isn't that how its done though? Don't they some kind of surface friction sensors to determine how slippery or dry the runways are? Is it all automated?
midwestpa24
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All of the above. The Approach Light System (the MALSR) in this case, is only functioning on medium intensity and is on continuously. My guess would be that the pilot controlled system is not working properly, and rather than shut them off completely, they opted to leave them on at a medium setting. If they were totally out of service, you would likely have increased minimums for that approach.
midwestpa24
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Yes, we do use some type of friction measurement equipment, whether a tow behind, dash mount, or vehicle integrated system. It is not necessarily automated to the NOTAM though, that still requires a person to input the data.
The way the system works is based on the type of contaminate present (dry snow, wet snow, ice, etc.), we get a number 0-6 based off of this chart. We then have the ability to adjust that number if the braking action differs from the number the contaminate corresponds to. We have the ability to break the runway down into thirds, touchdown, mid-point, and rollout. The conditions are probably usually the same for the length of the runway, but not always. I've honestly had snow on one end of the runway and dry pavement on the other. You have to remember, the runways can be miles long.
The system is far from perfect though, and us airports have been having a heck of a time using it this winter. The FAA promises to listen to us and make adjustments...this spring.
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BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Yeah the increased minimums requirement was the main reason why I asked. I wanted to be sure I got it right.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Departing LGA yesterday, a United pilot reported braking action at the intersecting runways as fair and tower quickly corrected him and said, do you mean medium. Pilot keyed up,"uhh yea." I still use good, fair, and nil.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Hmm, I wonder what kind of adjustment s they will be making? They probably developed new surface friction technology or something.
midwestpa24
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Not really adjustments to technology, but as to how we are able to report it. Airports nationwide have been running into issues with the new system that we feel either unjustly impact operations or affect safety. Mainly policy related.