I hate used car salesmen.

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Weekend Warrior, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hate is a strong word. How about I just say I strongly-dislike used car salesmen.

    I saw a truck, over the weekend, sitting on a used car lot. I looked at it, and it looked nice. The truck is a newish regular cab. Its been on their lot awhile, I assume because the regular cabs are hard to sell. But, I like regular cabs, and their price wasn't bad either.
    So I called on it this morning, and told the salesman that I would come in and would pay cash, as long as he sold it to me, out the door, AT his asking price. In other words, if he reduced the price enough to cover sales tax and a title fee (I did the math, and he would have to reduce the price by 6.15%), I would be there tonight and buy it. And the salesman's response:

    "Did you test drive it? I'm not selling you a truck that you haven't test driven!"

    F off! I hung up the phone. The truck is 18 months old, with 15,000 miles. What point is a test drive other than to get me in the door for the hard sell?
     
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  2. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Because he’s not going to talk price over the phone shy of a fleet deal, or being known to them and normally they want you to test drive to make sure you’re serious, and to get you a little excited about the car.

    My response would have been to say come on in, or if you want to work a deal over the phone I’ll need a card number first, and we would have to add a card fee to pay for the vehicle over the phone, so might be best to come in as it will end up costing less.

    Lots of people will blow your time in sales, it’s a gamble, when I sold cars I fully turfed quite a few to others salesmen because I thought they were not going to buy or they were not going to end up at the commission point that was worth my risking missing someone else.
     
  3. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    What's the dealership?

    I know you're local, just not sure how local.
     
  4. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    I too hate all forms of car salesman/women but in this case I think you are being a little over dramatic. I'm sure he has seen all types walk through the door being a small used car lot so I don't blame him for being a little skeptic.
     
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  5. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    He's not coming down 6%, but if he gets you there, maybe you'll love it so much, you'll buy it anyway.
     
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  6. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    How do you do that?
     
  7. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I happen to know the guy that gave used car salesmen a bad name. Really.
     
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  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Is it to early to compare car salesman to aircraft brokers?
     
  9. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    “I’ll be right back”

    “Hey Joe, this is Chris, he specializes in what you’re looking for, he’ll help you from here, have a good day”
     
  10. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Did Chris fall for that more than once?
     
  11. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Oh heck yeah.

    But some folks are different, I only made salesman of the month (volume) once, and it was one of my lower checks, normally I made more than the other guys but sold less cars, I just was selective. Lots of guys just whore cars out by the boat load kinda try to keep some commission, they loved my giving them folks, I also wasn’t married when I did this, meaning they get all of the commission vs a 50/50 split with me, that way when they made their mini selling that low baller a corolla, and in the mean time I made a 1500 commission selling a car with a dealer added markup I wouldn’t have to give them half of my commission.
     
  12. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Too bad, because there are many that will.

    That's it.

    As a buyer, my favorite thing is to tell them I saw the vehicle online and I'm not local. That tends to end the "come on down for the hard sell" BS.

    The dealership is in Niles.
     
  13. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Most salesmen just hear blah blah blah, everyone knows some guy in another town that will sell them the car for like 5000 below cost and also toss in a Rolex, sales folks know 80% of this is BS and the other 20% is irrelevant because you are on their lot now.

    And phone deals are a pain, I never did a full phone deal, they are often super low ball and you don’t make nearly the money for the effort vs just taking the next up who actually walks in.

    Or at least that was my experience back in the day when I did that, fun job for a young kid
     
  14. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When I buy new, I make a point of NEVER going in. Just make a few phone calls, and have the car delivered. But this is (slightly) used, so I did look at it first. Oh well, the guy probably just saved me $30k for now. I don't NEED a truck until spring anyway.
     
  15. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    First, he doesn’t care if you pay cash. They make more money financing the cars than selling them. Then he is going to try to sell you an extended warranty and credit life and whole bunch of other junk that is high profit.
     
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  16. Grum.Man

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    This^ They have no interest in people with money that can walk in, sign a check and leave as this gives them zero haggling room. They would rather make more for someone who can't afford it than make a quick sale for cash.

    New car dealers are about the only ones who get even a smidge excited about a cash deal because they rely on volume as much as profit.
     
  17. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    Yes. Unfortunately (except for the knowledge gained) I was in that business (new cars, motorcycles, ATVs, boats) for more than a decade. Your phone call is of zed value; they get many a day. Come in with the money, and you'll see a different world. Come in on a rainy day near the end of the month, if possible (when they may be grasping at sales goals).
    When I was in the biz we sent everyone to a three-day seminar called "Every Deal for Every Dollar". That sort of thing is still done.
     
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  18. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    For one, buy a new car is crazy

    For two, paying cash does have a slight benefit, don’t have to worry about financing, being upside down on your trade, too many loans, etc. if someone is a cash buyer or has a check from their bank, I know the deal will be done if I can control my customer and show them a car they can see themself in.
     
  19. DaleB

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    The last time (and I do mean the last time) I bought new, I was at the dealer late on the afternoon of the 28th of February. Last day of a short month. They'd have had a sale, if they hadn't ****ed me off SO badly playing dealer games that I just got tired of putting up twit the non-stop antics. "Oh, I'll have to check with my manager." "Oh, somehow we can't find the keys to your potential trade-in." "Oh, you really, really need the rust protection; besides, we already did it to all the vehicles on our lot, so you have to pay for it." (Really? If the truck is that crappy, maybe I should be looking at Chevy instead... )

    So I left. And bought the exact same vehicle, except custom ordered in the color and with the interior I actually wanted, the next day, different dealer, for $1500 less, with no silly games. And I wouldn't set foot in the first dealership again if they were giving cars away for free.
     
  20. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm not picky with vehicles at all. I've bought several new vehicles over the phone, without ever stepping foot in a dealership, and had them delivered. I don't BS, I just call and say give me your best price on XYZ and then let them know I will be calling other dealers as well. About half the dealers ask, "What's your best price so far?" I respond, "Nope. Not going to play that way." Maybe 1 in 5 refuse to give a price, and another 1 in 5 give me sticker price. The remaining 3 in 5 give me a good price. I pick the lowest one (if two are very close, say +-$500, I may also just pick the closer one).
    I shocked the last dealer I bought new from because they kept asking what color I wanted, and I kept responding "surprise me". I truly didn't give a rats patoot what color it was, as long as it had the options I wanted. I haven't financed a car/truck, new or used, in nearly 25 years. Every new car/truck I've bought, I've kept for at least 10 years (with one lemon exception). All my used cars I kept until they were at least 10 years old. Seems to work out well for me so far.
     
  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Lesson 1 in the “every deal for every dollar” course @Kenny Phillips mentioned was probably “once they visualize themselves in their favorite color car, you’ve got ‘em.”
     
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  22. Shawn

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    It is just another tactic.

    Just bought a Sprinter van...found what I wanted which was a left over last year model.

    Walked in and said "If you can do $xx,xxx all in OTD no BS I will pull the trigger right now, I have another option if not (which I did but was not as good) and I don't care how you manipulate the numbers"

    "OK while they work on numbers, lets go for a test drive"

    "Dude, it is a van...they are a dime a dozen"

    After some back and forth, went on test drive. Got out of van "Nice ride, but guess what, I am STILL at $xx,xxx so can we stop wasting time?"

    Haggle, haggle, haggle..."I can spend that but don't need to, so no thanks"...and was willing to walk which is the key.

    Got the van for my ask OTD two hours later. You guys gotta do the dance and play their games a bit and always in person.

    I have bought a lot of cars and trucks for both personal and work and I am not at all a good negotiator but I have learned the game and like to see how ****ed off I can get the sales guys. That is when I know I have the best deal.

    As others mentioned, cash is NOT king, they make more on financing and manipulating the monthly payments. I do not drop that I will pay cash till well into the deal of the final purchase price.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  23. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Neither used nor new car dealers get excited about cash buyers. They make a good margin issuing credit for car loans. Why do you think the manufacturers got into the game with entities like GM Financial (formerly GMAC)? The largest private dealers have their own credit finance entities, and every one of them has referral fee arrangements with regional credit lenders. These are often more lucrative than the actual net profit on the sale of a new vehicle.

    If you want to buy for cash you actually have the least leverage to move the price. The best tactic, if there is no trade in, is to give them the room to negotiate a better purchase price with you by taking the credit...and then pay it all off in the first month.

    The margins on mass produced new vehicles are very thin. Much thinner than used vehicles. And what you just described is the reason why. You can get the EXACT same vehicle at any dealership representing the same manufacturer. There is no significant way one dealership can differentiate themselves from another, so it's basically commodity-like price competition for new vehicles. The manufacturers try to create some differentiation by producing "limited editions", but that's about all they can do as mass producers.
     
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  24. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :yeahthat:

    Back in the day when I sold used cars, we would buy a 5 year old car at the auction for 500 bucks. Put it on the lot, $500 down and $100 a month for 20 months.

    Normally we would get the car back at around 5 or 6 months and put it back on the lot, $500 down and $100 a month for 20 months. We would usually sell the car 3 or 4 times before it would stay gone.

    Also after the car was paid for, bring it back in and we will give you $500 bucks trade in for a different car, and you only pay $100 bucks a month for 20 months.
     
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  25. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    This is why I never talk to anyone on the floor, but call the Fleet manager first. I have a wish list - if it's on the lot (usually is, because I was at the lot on Sunday when the dealerships are closed), I'm there in the afternoon to pick it up. I finance thru my credit union because I don't want to drop that much cash at once.

    When Dad was alive, he spent the summers with me to get out of the Phoenix heat. His favorite "past time" was to wander over to a dealership just to annoy whoever was on the floor. Drove me crazy but he thought it was so much fun. Of course it took the "up" away from that salesman, which I thought was unfair.

    Oh, did I mention? Dad was the #1 fleet mgr in Phoenix. He only had a handful of customers....Hertz/Budget (Arizona, Las Vegas, San Diego), US West (when it still existed), Greyhound/Armour/Swift (the big trucks), couple others, and his pinocle buddies. He spent one day a week in the office. Come to think of it, he only spent one day a week working. He was very happy with the volume approach.
     
  26. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Line Up and Wait

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    Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. I have purchased two new cars in my life, and the last one was thirty years ago. Two of the dumbest things I've ever done, and I've done plenty.

    As a self-admitted control-freak, the minute I feel like someone is trying to control or manipulate me in any kind of business deal, I'm out. One of the many reasons I haven't bought a new car in thirty years and keep the cars I DO buy until they have hundreds of thousands of miles on them and can barely move... at which time I just give them away or donate them. I can't stand the entire process of buying a car, especially from any kind of dealership, used or new. I know it's a business, and the employees are there to make money. I don't fault them for that. I DO fault them for overselling customers, dishonest sales practices, not disclosing known faults, pressure sales tactics, hiding key details, costs, and fees in small print (Toyota financing, I'm talking TO YOU) and the myriad of other things that seem routine ugliness in the field. I'm probably a huge pain-in-the-zorch customer... ok, no probably about it... but if you want my money and my business, you're going to answer my questions honestly, fulfill every promise you make to the letter before, during, and after the sale, and in general give me all the information I need and WANT to allow me make an informed, rational decision as to whether or not spending my money on this specific car at this specific price is a good idea or not. As a cash buyer who will always be a cash buyer, that's what it would take to make me part with my cash. I always remain polite and pleasant, but if the salesperson I'm talking to is steering and selling rather than listening and answering, I thank them for their time and leave.
     
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  27. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've done this before. Funny that I had to mention it to make it happen though. Seems like they should offer it up to give a better deal.
     
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  28. DaleB

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    See, I don't like driving old, worn out vehicles. I don't insist on new, because the first couple years of depreciation (first several in the case of luxury vehicles) is just too punishing. I maintain them well, but there is only so much you can do. Once it starts looking and feeling worn, starts with the rattles and squeaks, it's time to replace it.

    If I'm buying from a dealer, I'll finance if it will get me a better deal. I don't mind doing the extra ten minutes worth of paperwork, and I'll pay it off as soon as I can do so without penalty. Occasionally I'll get an offer to swing the loan over to somewhere the interest is so low I can't pass it up. Right now we're paying under 3% on my wife's Volvo (bought a year old), simply because State Farm wanted the loan so badly for some unfathomable reason. Great -- I'm averaging 13% per year ROI elsewhere, so I'll take that deal. The instant the loan is not cost effective, it's history. I don't think hard and fast rules (never pay cash, never finance, never this or that) are a good idea. There's always a situation where it makes good financial sense to do something that normally wouldn't.
     
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  29. airdale

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    With respect, @WeekendWarrior, I have never worked at or owned a car dealership, but I had a company that bought & sold big ticket used capital equipment. So I often ended up talking to potential buyers and I always had salespeople to coach.

    If you approached me on the phone as you describe, I would have blown you off too. A rigid, demanding, and adversarial personality is at best not a very good customer before or after the sale and at worst is a huge time-waster with no sale at the end.

    From your point of view your approach is also not a very good one. You might be leaving money on the table with that kind of offer. If the offer is accepted you will never know.

    I actually enjoy negotiation but I approach it as a game like chess, not as a battle like rugby.
     
  30. EdFred

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    I just bought a new truck a week ago. I liked the sales people, ended up with about 2500 to 3000 in accessories at no additional cost. Not due to exceptional haggling skills, but the sales person oopsed and the manager stood by their price and said "well, if that's what we said, then that's what we said." I wrote a check right after that. They had added stuff to the truck at the dealership, but never noted it on the invoice. So when we made the deal, they forgot to add that on. I would have walked if they said, no sorry, we gotta add those on.
     
  31. SoonerAviator

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    Bought one new vehicle 11 years ago, still driving it. Got a great deal, but still wouldn't buy new again unless similar circumstances arose. My experience was positive, but it's because it was all arranged via internet/email on a truck they had on the lot. Price/etc. was all detailed in advance with the internet sales manager and I drove an hour and half to sign paperwork and then leave. The worst part of the buying experience (I've sat in on other new car purchases) is actually the paperwork/Finance guy. This is usually where the upsells occur (gap insurance, interior scotchguarding, etc.) and takes forever to listen to their spiel and then say 'no' to everything.
     
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  32. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    Similar thing happened to me when I bought my first new truck. Wife and I went shopping, I had my heart set on the more basic, $10k cheaper truck that still had what I would need, my wife picked the most loaded one on the lot. So I got the most loaded one. I'm literally just looking out the window at it while the paperwork is getting printed and noticed it didn't have a tow package. The dealer said, "go schedule an appointment to get it all installed", and didn't charge a cent for it. Totally my mistake, but they didn't hesitate to get me what I needed without adjusting the agreed upon price.
     
  33. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I walked into one dealer, the sales folks started swarming until I said I was buying under X-plan and paying cash. They scattered like cockroaches hit with a light.

    There was one dealer around here that was known for taking the customer keys to check their trade-in, then throwing their keys on the roof until they signed for a new car. That worked until some POed county employee called the cops on them after they did it to him. Didn't take long for the county attorney insisted on a consent decree instead of a lawsuit.

    Had one salesman at another dealer who stared at my ex-wife's chest the entire time we were there. We left pretty fast. Ex was none to thrilled about being objectified.

    I walked out of one after we agreed on a price and they started hard-selling an extended service contract and rustproofing. I mean really hard sell. I looked at him, said "so what I'm hearing you say is that you build crappy, rust-prone cars. I don't want to own a car like that. Deal's off". Before he could respond, I had ripped up the contract offer and was walking out. Bought a different brand elsewhere.

    Last truck I bought was the best experience of any. Dealer was experimenting with Internet sales, I indicated interest in a truck on the lot, cash purchase, 'friends and family' discount code. We set up all the details by phone, I was only in the dealership for about 30 minutes to sign papers and pick up the truck. I'd do that again anytime.
     
  34. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Line Up and Wait

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    Admittedly, I may have engaged in a bit of hyperbole, and I appreciate you calling me on it. For clarification's sake..

    I am always PREPARED to pay cash. On occasions when 0% or extremely low (far below what I'd make letting the money stay invested elsewhere) financing has been offered, I've occasionally accepted the financing offer when it saved me money over cash. In every case, I got sick of paying the bills or having my "Apply all additional payment to PRINCIPAL" box or directions ignored despite the salesman's assurance that that's where additional payment goes (YES, once again, TOYOTA, I'm talking to YOU), I paid off the loans after a few months. That was more because I got frustrated with their business practices than pure pragmatism. I just hate debt, even when it makes sense.

    I do tend to keep vehicles to the point where they have little or no value in the market, and that's what I should have said rather than describe them as "barely running." Right now, I've got four, and all are in excellent mechanical and cosmetic condition, with the oldest being an '88 and the newest a '13. With the exception of the '13, all have well over 100k on them and all drive like new.. no rattles, squeaks, or issues of any kind...everything works including any unnecessary bells and whistles. I'll have them all until the cost of repairing something exceeds the cost of buying a similar vehicle in better shape... that's generally my "litmus test." There's a lot of salt on the roads where I live, and that ends up being the death knell usually. The last two three vehicles I parted with each had well over 200K on them and I'd had each of them for well over a decade, but the salt had done them in ('93 BMW 325i w/ 235K and '92 Ford Aerostar w/ 240K). Squeak? Rattle? Thunk? Repair it. Always cheaper than selling and buying another car. Frame shot, or simply SOooo much rust that wrenching on it was almost no longer possible? Then yeah.. time for a kiss and a goodbye.

    I won't put my wife in a car that's not in tip-top condition. I'll personally put up with a bit less than that, but am far past the years when I view "will I get there?" as something exciting.

    Your post was closer to what I SHOULD have posted. Keeping up on repairs and maintenance will prevent almost any vehicle from ever "feeling worn" mechanically. All of our cars drive like new. Cosmetic wear on seats, paint chips, window blasting, and, sadly, rust... there's not much you can do about that stuff. Until it becomes a safety factor, none of that really matters much to me.
     
  35. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  36. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe I should be glad I am no longer a used auto part salesman.....
     
  37. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    Yeah, they taught us how to tell if the customer was hooked. Funny thing is, I was a parts and service manager, but they made us attend it as well.
    BTW, one thing that does work well when buying from a dealer is to tell them you spent more than a decade of your life in a dealership. That cut all of the crap the last car I bought. (And now I drive 3K miles a year, I hardly need a car.)
     
  38. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

    Joined:
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    Display name:
    Ghery Pettit
    I've purchased new and used over the years. The newest car, a 2013 Ford Escape, was purchased using the Ford credit deal at the time - 0% interest for 5 years. Sure, I'll play with your money for 5 years! It's pushing 109,000 miles on the clock and running fine. We still have my wife's 2006 Jeep Commander (I'd have to look, but about 135,000 miles) and my 1999 Jeep Wrangler (192,000? miles). They run, why replace them? Although I will admit that if I put 1000 miles a year on the Wrangler these days I would be driving the heck out of it. Our oldest granddaughter just turned 14 and my son and his wife are starting to save money to buy something for her to learn in. I keep telling him that I've got this 20 year old Wrangler that would be great. "But, she wants all the latest safety equipment!" How about a built in roll cage and a solid body/frame that has already won two "contests" with other vehicles? Oh well, we'll see what happens there.

    Idiot salesman at the Ford dealer darned near blew the sale of that Escape. I was looking at Edmunds' app to see what a fair price might be and he asked how many card Edmunds had built. I should have asked him how many he had built and walked. Oh well...
     
  39. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    airdale
    Yes. That's an example of a "trial close." A quick internet search will get you other examples like: "Do you prefer the leather or the cloth interior?" "Do you like the red one or the white one better?"

    The notion of the trial close is twofold. First, the response can indicate to the salesperson how close to a deal the customer is. Second, just thinking about the question supposedly brings the customer closer to feeling he will own the car.

    When I get the first trial close, my response is "Great trial close, but I am not ready to make a decision yet." This kind of levels the playing field and seems to limit the game playing a little bit.

    Re dealer add-ons: They are always overpriced, making them a nice additional source of profit. My response is to ignore them and work only off the sticker price of the car. I tell the salesperson that the add-on (running boards, anti-chip paint film, magic paint treatment, etc.) is of no value to me and he is welcome to take it off the vehicle if he likes. From that point the add-ons are never again discussed.
     
  40. Shuswap BC

    Shuswap BC Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2019
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    Mabel lake BC
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    Display name:
    Shuswap BC
    It isn't just used car salesmen that are slimy, new car sales is just as bad. My girlfriend bought a new car this summer, she started at the local dealers, decided on a Kia, but the sales people were slime buckets. She tried the next nearest Kia dealer, had no better luck finding a good person to deal with. I then called a Kia dealership and had a nice phone call with a sales lady there, and I told my girlfriend we should drive up together in her old car, and see how it goes. Well it went great, and we drove home in her shiny new car. If you don't like the first car dealership, boat dealer, flight school, or any other business, just go elsewhere. It doesn't matter what or who, the customers hard earned money should be spent wherever they feel comfortable. In the building of our new home, I interviewed three builders who just didn't make me feel comfortable, but number four did. They did an excellent job of building our new home and hangar, despite a few changes being added by me part way into the build.