I got angry at CSRs today

[MikeELP]

This is why I fuel my plane myself.

There is a very good reason why those ramp monkeys only manage to eek out $10hr for their "labor"

Lucky you didn't get JET A instead of 100ll

You, sir, are an arrogant a$$.

JMHO,

Mike

 

[Z06_Mir]

I should state, OUR COMPANY ground crew, I have the highest amount of respect for, I work with them everyday, I've drank with them and I trust them.

In my line of work, ramp workers are guilty of being stupid until proven innocent, I've had enough experience with them that this is the safest mindset. Sorry if it offends but it keeps me and mine safe

FYI, I still always monitor fueling, even by our company people whom I trust.

Please tell me, what is your line of work? I've made some of my best friends working on the line, some of my best professional pilot contacts. They have never treated any of my coworkers poorly. Ever. It's tough to talk to someone who automatically thinks their "position" makes them better than you are. But line service folks do, and they do it with a smile.

 

[qbynewbie]

I agree. However, PIC or SIC or third pilot has to watch the fueling. Even if you have already been in the air 6 hours, you just landed at Iqaluit in the middle of the night, the temp is -20C and the wind is blowing snow at 40knots, and you have to fly through the rest of the night to get to Europe for the boss. A crew member will watch the fueling.

Each and every time, or else there is no one in command.

Whether or not a pilot chooses to watch fueling or should watch fueling has nothing to do with respect and courtesy for the people who are working the line.

At my airport, the mechanics often help out on the line. These are highly-regarded IAs with decades of experience as well as long flying careers. But pilots flying into the airport don't have any idea who they are other than the guy in the fuel truck. I pity the pilot who gives them attitude and then pulls up to the maintenance hangar demanding service immediately.

 

[kgruber]

Whether or not a pilot chooses to watch fueling or should watch fueling has nothing to do with respect and courtesy for the people who are working the line.

At my airport, the mechanics often help out on the line. These are highly-regarded IAs with decades of experience as well as long flying careers. But pilots flying into the airport don't have any idea who they are other than the guy in the fuel truck. I pity the pilot who gives them attitude and then pulls up to the maintenance hangar demanding service immediately.

You really need to read the thread.

 

[qbynewbie]

You really need to read the thread.

I have read the thread. Carefully.

I apologize, though, because by quoting you I implied that I was disagreeing with you -- which I am not, in the slightest. Instead, I was using your post as a starting point for the point I was trying to make: even if a pilot chooses to stànd and watch his plane being refueled (which I think is a good idea), that action should not be used to put down the line service folks.

Bright, responsible people make mistakes all the time. That's why it's a good idea to watch the fueling process. Not because the line service personnel are half wits.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I have read the thread. Carefully.

I apologize, though, because by quoting you I implied that I was disagreeing with you -- which I am not, in the slightest. Instead, I was using your post as a starting point for the point I was trying to make: even if a pilot chooses to stànd and watch his plane being refueled (which I think is a good idea), that action should not be used to out down the line service folks.

Bright, responsible people make mistakes all the time. That's why it's a good idea to watch the fueling process. Not because the line service personnel are half wits.

This post

And if you're gonna watch, either stand 10 feet away or pretend to be on your phone or the best yet strike up a conversation. Something like "So what's the most unusual plane you've seen lately?" or "You a pilot? What's a good spot to fly over on our way out of town?" saying "I'm standing here so you don't screw up" doesn't make anyone feel good

BTW, most of the people I worked with were retired military (20+ years) and a handful were college graduates, some were in college and some just like airplanes. Our turnover was very low, and I believe it still is.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Boy we got some touchy feely PC types on here huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0JW1tJLRtsk

 

[timwinters]

You, sir, are an arrogant a$$.

JMHO,

Mike

Yessiree...one more on ignore...

Boy we got some touchy feely PC types on here huh?

And he just doesn't know when to quit it seems.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Jesus...

Look, read what I wrote.

I got no issues with people who are COMPETENT.

Line workers (and I really dont see many AP IA's or ATPs around here in that line of work lol) tend to be less then the level of a pilot, AP, firefighter, CPA etc.

SOME ARE GREAT,

however I have had to deal planes that got hit by fuel trucks, "no we didnt see it, cant release our videos without a court order" yea...

Seen wrong tanks filled, seen wrong fuel used (that's always a nice way to destroy a day if you're lucky and catch it, worse if you dont).

Fuel caps put on WAY to tight, too loose, or directional ones backwards.

No fuel added, too much fuel added.

Cones put right under props, yea nothing really wrong with it, but does this sound like a good idea, no.


I know some people who have applied and taken these jobs, some of which are my friends, great guys to grab a beer with but not someone I would trust to watch my kids, if ya know what I mean


As PIC I cant afford to presume they know what they are doing, unless I know them and they have DEMONSTRATED they can do their job AND THEN STILL I need to supervise them

Simply put it's unskilled labor, put into close proximity, fueling, moving, touching very complex and delicate machines, to presume they are all are bight stars who could be the next president of the US, or mobile prize winner is not a bright move.



I dont look down on the line workers, I just dont put my head in the sand regarding the lack of requirements / experience for the job or the demographic of MOST who work the job.

Please tell me, what is your line of work?

Pilot, I damn near live at the airport.

 

[weilke]

Jesus...

Look, read what I wrote.

I got no issues with people who are COMPETENT.

Line workers (and I really dont see many AP IA's or ATPs around here in that line of work lol) tend to be less then the level of a pilot, AP, firefighter, CPA etc.

SOME ARE GREAT,

however I have had to deal planes that got hit by fuel trucks, "no we didnt see it, cant release our videos without a court order" yea...

Seen wrong tanks filled, seen wrong fuel used (that's always a nice way to destroy a day if you're lucky and catch it, worse if you dont).

Fuel caps put on WAY to tight, too loose, or directional ones backwards.

No fuel added, too much fuel added.

Cones put right under props, yea nothing really wrong with it, but does this sound like a good idea, no.


I know some people who have applied and taken these jobs, some of which are my friends, great guys to grab a beer with but not someone I would trust to watch my kids, if ya know what I mean


As PIC I cant afford to presume they know what they are doing, unless I know them and they have DEMONSTRATED they can do their job AND THEN STILL I need to supervise them

Still doesn't mean that you have to be such an arrogant prick about it.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

yea... you are right, I could have said the same thing in a nicer way


Seems that the longer Im in this business the less I am PC or subtle about things.



How about this

Watch your linemen for the safety of your flight and dont assume they know what they are doing.

 

[timwinters]

This message is hidden because NineThreeKilo is on your ignore list.

I see your lips moving but I can't hear you talking. :applause:

 

[C182P]

Seems that the longer Im in this business the less I am PC or subtle about things.

There's a big difference between being PC and simply being respectful of others. I don't think anyone has complained about your intention of saying "nobody is watching out for you except you, and this is an environment where if you don't watch out for yourself you could die". It's possible to say that with respect, but for the most part you say it in this thread with disdain towards others. Perhaps you don't actually treat other people the way you suggest in this thread, but all this group of random Internet strangers has to go on is what you put out here.

How about this

Watch your linemen for the safety of your flight and dont assume they know what they are doing.

Respectful of others and lacking that underlying "I'm better than them" attitude. You might very well be better than them, but only if you don't go out of your way to show it.

 

[wabower]

And from Paul Harvey's "the rest of the story" . . .

Along with another POA'er I've been involved in discussions with FBO owners and managers for some time regarding ways to possibly reduce fuel prices by reducing the number of LL trucks during off hours. In off-the-record conversations the FBO's and line service crews really wish all the David Whites and their ****ty little piston poppers would go somewhere else anyway.

They categorize them as tight-wad, free-loading bitchers who somehow think the line crews set the fuel prices and ramp charges, can't understand why they can't use the crew cars for multiple-day stays and are generally in the way of the planes that require more than 20 gallons to top off.

 

[Ted]

Pilot, I damn near live at the airport.

Noted. Your argumentative attitude on here has also been noted.

I do find it humorous that supposedly professional pilots come onto a forum and display attitudes that leave me putting them on a list of "Would never employ." We're a diverse group on here, including a lot of the folks who can provide employment or the connections for it.

And the list just keeps growing...

 

[Ted]

And from Paul Harvey's "the rest of the story" . . .

Along with another POA'er I've been involved in discussions with FBO owners and managers for some time regarding ways to possibly reduce fuel prices by reducing the number of LL trucks during off hours. In off-the-record conversations the FBO's and line service crews really wish all the David Whites and their ****ty little piston poppers would go somewhere else anyway.

They categorize them as tight-wad, free-loading bitchers who somehow think the line crews set the fuel prices and ramp charges, can't understand why they can't use the crew cars for multiple-day stays and are generally in the way of the planes that require more than 20 gallons to top off.

Yep, that is the exact sentiment.

I show up needing 100 gallons in the 310, which is a decent number for a piston job. The King Air next to me needs 200, and the Gulfstream next to him needs, what, 1,000? And the 172 folks wonder why they aren't being treated like the kings of the ramp, when the profit from their 20 gallon fillup barely pays the line guy for a couple hours, much less handle other expenses like the girl at the desk, lights, bathrooms...

Funny, I've never had problems. I also go in with a calmer attitude. And my days have been very, very long.

 

[Rwsavory]

I see your lips moving but I can't hear you talking. :applause:

Did the same. The air just became a lot fresher in here.

 

[EdFred]

There's 93,000 reasons people think pilots are a-holes.

 

[bnt83]

Some people just need to complain about something and run around screaming like a little girl about it. South Park episode with the Harley riders comes to mind.

P.S. Not trashing them all, in fact I had an 2002 EG with all the bags, CD player, driver's backrest and stock exhaust before the amputations in 2009.

 

[Ted]

Some people just need to complain about something and run around screaming like a little girl about it. South Park episode with the Harley riders comes to mind.

P.S. Not trashing them all, in fact I had an 2002 EG with all the bags, CD player, driver's backrest and stock exhaust before the amputations in 2009.

Some idiot with a Ninja passed my Harley the other day when I was doing 10 under the limit in the left lane at full throttle. Doesn't he know that he should respect my slow pig of a bike and stay behind it? Jerks.

Happy owner of a 2009 Ultra Classic.

 

[Jeanie]

You get what you give. A calm pleasant demeanor goes a long way towards efficient fueling. Even when I'm in a hurry I don't act like it and I watch the refueling and chat. I tip the guys who go out of their way for me and generally it's all good. And, I'm a little piston popper. They may hate having to bother with my little self but it works out better for me if I'm kind. And I try to be especially patient/kind to the guy who might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer because he's busting a** on a hot ramp trying to get by.

YMMV

 

[bnt83]

Some idiot with a Ninja passed my Harley the other day when I was doing 10 under the limit in the left lane at full throttle. Doesn't he know that he should respect my slow pig of a bike and stay behind it? Jerks.

Happy owner of a 2009 Ultra Classic.

The us vs them is so silly. Kinda like airplanes.

 

[CJones]

Geez.. Look what you stirred up, David! Maybe next time you should be friendly to the line guys so PoA doesn't implode.

 

[tonycondon]

When i was flying charter, it wasn't always practical to supervise. When that happened, a comparison of the receipt and the quantity/color indicated by a visual check/gauges and off we went into the wild blue yonder. Only had a similar mistake once, and it was in South Bend during the Notre Dame/Michigan game. They were busy, I wasn't mad, just wanted my gas, and we were shortly on our way.

 

[Ted]

The us vs them is so silly. Kinda like airplanes.

Agreed. Hopefully the fact that post was a joke was obvious.

We also have a sportbike in the garage. I've found mostly it's sportbike riders who are anti-Harley. Typically, the Harley riders I've met don't care.

 

[docmirror]

What an interesting thread. We start with an incompetent complete staff at an FBO, and have veered all the way to a paying customer's attitude.

Kind of fascinating to start at the beginning and see the righteous crowd turn judgmental.


OBTW, I've been to plenty of airports, and when I don't use self-serve cause it isn't avail I watch every drop going in. Usually, I do it from afar, because I don't want to cause any friction. It's been my experience that I've seen some kind of fueling mistake made more than ~20% of the time.

My favorite was the guy who couldn't get the old style rubber expansion plug cap back on the tank so he turned the fuel handle over and started pounding it in. It would have been hilarious if I wasn't about to take off in that same plane. Cutter at PHX, Dec 15th 2006.

 

[EdFred]

Agreed. Hopefully the fact that post was a joke was obvious.

We also have a sportbike in the garage. I've found mostly it's sportbike riders who are anti-Harley. Typically, the Harley riders I've met don't care.

One thing I noticed is that a majority of Harley riders (where I've ridden) would not return "the wave" from a sportbike rider.

 

[Ted]

One thing I noticed is that a majority of Harley riders (where I've ridden) would not return "the wave" from a sportbike rider.

Good point - I'd forgotten about that since I haven't ridden sportbikes regularly in a while.

But BMW riders won't return "the wave" from Harley riders.

 

[EdFred]

Good point - I'd forgotten about that since I haven't ridden sportbikes regularly in a while.

But BMW riders won't return "the wave" from Harley riders.

There is a pecking, or is that pricking, order.

 

[bnt83]

Thread creep:

I had and rode:

1988 Yamaha FZR400-3EN imported from Japan after my oldest brother resurrected it from a Japanese junk yard and discovered thier DMV would NOT allow him to register the salvaged bike. Later drove to Iowa and picked up and FZR 600 and swapped the engine out and threw the 600 frame away and sold the 400 engine to a track bike rider.



1981 KZ750 (the 4 banger) Kawasaki

2002 Harley Electraglide Standard

1987 Yamaha FZ7

My dad bought a brand new 2008 Honda GL1800 Navi. I put about 800 miles on it before I got sick. Wheelie in 3rd gear with two average/heavier people on it. One big sport bike. It sure was fun and I'm glad I got to ride it before I joined the amputee world.

 

[qbynewbie]

You get what you give. A calm pleasant demeanor goes a long way towards efficient fueling. Even when I'm in a hurry I don't act like it and I watch the refueling and chat. I tip the guys who go out of their way for me and generally it's all good. And, I'm a little piston popper. They may hate having to bother with my little self but it works out better for me if I'm kind. And I try to be especially patient/kind to the guy who might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer because he's busting a** on a hot ramp trying to get by.

YMMV

The nice thing about being nice and practicing a calm, pleasant demeanor is that at the end of the day you feel good. You aren't still harboring anger and boiling blood pressure and basically ruining your whole day.

Suppose you knew that today was your last day: at the end of today, at the stroke of midnight, you were going to drop dead. Would you want to spend your remaining hours angry, upset and quite possibly acting like a total jerk toward others? Or would you want to live your day, enjoy it as much as possible, take joy in every possible moment, and enjoy as much as possible your interactions with everyone else?

Live each day as if it will be your last. Sooner or later -- and we often don't know when -- it will be.

 

[Bob Noel]

Good point - I'd forgotten about that since I haven't ridden sportbikes regularly in a while.

But BMW riders won't return "the wave" from Harley riders.

otoh - a few years ago I had a flat tire on my motorcycle and was pushing it about 300yds to a garage (fortunately it was a very light motorcycle - about 200lbs). Every single biker stopped to ask if I needed help. Not one failed to stop, sport bike or harley. No cars stopped, just bikes.

It was my first year riding and was a great introduction to motorcycles.

 

[Z06_Mir]

And from Paul Harvey's "the rest of the story" . . .

Along with another POA'er I've been involved in discussions with FBO owners and managers for some time regarding ways to possibly reduce fuel prices by reducing the number of LL trucks during off hours. In off-the-record conversations the FBO's and line service crews really wish all the David Whites and their ****ty little piston poppers would go somewhere else anyway.

They categorize them as tight-wad, free-loading bitchers who somehow think the line crews set the fuel prices and ramp charges, can't understand why they can't use the crew cars for multiple-day stays and are generally in the way of the planes that require more than 20 gallons to top off.

Jets are easier, and they make the money. There is very little profit on 100LL, especially when it's less than 20-30 gallons. But if the guy/gal is nice like a Gulfstream crew, they'll get treated like a Gulfstream crew. If you show up in a Bonanza and you treat us like children, complain about our prices (after you paid) and how your airplane got dirty in the hangar (still can't figure that one out) you may be asked to find different services for your next visit. It's tough. More often than one would realize someone shows up in a piston who flies a Learjet for a living... do you wanna make that guy remember the good service? Absolutely. Where I worked we treated the 172 the same as the Citation X - the Gulfstreams usually got another person or two to it, because of all the bags.

 

[Dizaster]

I don’t post much, mostly I read & learn, and I have many friends here that I have met either through the board or in person. Those friends may see a different side of me after this.

I am the mom of what was referred to as a “ramp monkey.” This “ramp monkey” son of mine absolutely loves his job. To make a statement about there being “a very good reason why those ramp monkeys only manage to eek out $10hr for their ‘labor’" is an arrogant judgment against my son and I take personal offense.

My son is in charge of managing Citation Bravos, Lear Jet 40’s & 45’s, Hawker 800’s, & Falcon 2000’s to name a few. He is very conscientious about what his responsibilities are and takes those responsibilities seriously. He knows what’s on the line.

He is well liked, gets nice tips from those who aren’t too arrogant -should I make an assumption that the poster of the above statement would be of the kind that would arrive in a 30 million dollar jet and give the “ramp monkey” five bucks for handling his luggage, fueling his plane, and storing in a hangar? To assume that- is rather arrogant on my part, yes?

A lot of the “ramp monkeys” use their job as a stepping stone to better things- which is where my son is currently. He has other opportunities in his immediate future which would have not opened up to him had he not been “serving” others.

I don’t know you 93K, and you don’t know my son. You don’t know what his reasons are for seeking out what you refer to as $10hr job, and you don’t know what he makes. I will be “fair” to you, however, and partially agree with your adjusted statement in post #51…to “Watch your lineman”…as that is a your responsibility as PIC. But to slam the “ramp monkey” again with the assumption that they “don’t know what they are doing” (you had a typo there) is totally unfair to some “ramp monkeys.”

If you ever have an occasion to fly in to where my “ramp monkey” son happens to be, he will treat you kindly and with respect. He will do his job and most likely he will do it with a smile because that’s the kind of kid he is. He will not expect any tip, but will be grateful for anything you care to put in his hand whether it’s a $5 or a $100.

AS IN ANY PROFFESSION- there are some that give any “profession” a bad “name.” But to make a general statement about a specific profession as if to assume that everyone doing that job fits a certain criteria is – arrogant, IMHO. But what do I know—I’m only the “mom” of a “ramp monkey.”

 

[qbynewbie]

Bravo, Mom!!!

(At 92, my Mom is getting on but still going strong. You sound a lot like her -- and that's a real compliment. )

 

[Ted]

Well said, Diz.

 

[weilke]

Don't mess with mama-bear

 

[X3 Skier]

Thanks Diz. I think I may have caddied for a 93K type in a previous incarnation toting two bags full of mostly poorly used clubs up and down hills as I was working my way thru engineering school. It was too far to the airport since I couldn't afford a car otherwise I would have been there being abused.

Cheers

 

[jhausch]

To the line folks listening....

Can the pilot say, "Is it OK if I fuel my airplane?" Then, with permission, use your ladder (if needed), and you hand him/her the hose? Any rules against that? Seems like the way I'd want to do it...

 

[Z06_Mir]

To the line folks listening....

Can the pilot say, "Is it OK if I fuel my airplane?" Then, with permission, use your ladder (if needed), and you hand him/her the hose? Any rules against that? Seems like the way I'd want to do it...

Sure. Doesn't bother me a bit. Some companies might have policies against it, but the ones I had allowed that. We still had to be present of course. Is fairly common to see in home builds and doesn't bother me a bit that way I'm not liable of they scratch it or put a hole in it.