How to log this?

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I'm a licensed PPL. Taking a non-aviation trip but will rent a plane with a CFI for a 'checkout ride' around the area. I don't want to bring my logbook on the trip.
(I am bringing my license, copy of medical and insurance, copies of BFR and last six months of flying.)

I think I can log this when I get back home, without the CFI signature. If I flew alone, it'd be PIC time. With a CFI, it could be dual, but without his signing the log book, is it better to log it as PIC? Perhaps with an explanation comment?
 
If the cfi is grubbing for hours he is going to want to log dual given. You could always have him write on a sticky and put it in your logbook somewhere.
 
It's not PIC or dual. It's both.

Even if the instructor is acting PIC (unlikely), you're the sole manipulator on a checkout.

That is, unless it's a twin or seaplane and your rating is ASEL.
 
Actually it would BE likely the instructor is acting as PIC on a checkout.
 
Do you need the dual? (Rhetorical question, you don't.) As long as you're legal PIC then log it as such, on your own time.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Do you need the dual? (Rhetorical question, you don't.) As long as you're legal PIC then log it as such, on your own time.
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Checkout? Almost certainly the CFI is going to be acting PIC. But it's irrelevant, as others have said. Log it as PIC regardless, as sole manipulator, as long as you're rated in the category/class/type (if type rating required, not valid with other offers, void where prohibited).
 
ClimbnSink said:
If the cfi is grubbing for hours he is going to want to log dual given. You could always have him write on a sticky and put it in your logbook somewhere.
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The CFI is going to log Dual Given (most likely) regardless of what this person does in his logbook. They are separate.

I do agree with the posts above since OP would be PIC under sole manipulator.

I have utilized the sticky note before with a CFI.
 
jxdrl said:
The CFI is going to log Dual Given (most likely) regardless of what this person does in his logbook. They are separate.

I do agree with the posts above since OP would be PIC under sole manipulator and I have utilized the sticky note before with a CFI.
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Need a regmonster to confirm but I don't think you are supposed to log dual given without putting your name in the students log book. Not that the cfi would ever get caught or that it matters.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Need a regmonster to confirm but I don't think you are supposed to log dual given without putting your name in the students log book. Not that the cfi would ever get caught or that it matters.
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Understood. Thank you. I did not know that. I doubt they would ever get cross-referenced either.

I thought the name thing was more for the student's benefit when it is required since it needs to be proven that instruction happened for practical tests, reviews, etc. For tradition and insurance purposes, otherwise.

The CFI never really gets anything for Dual Given after a certain point unless they go for a Gold Seal right? I remember the 24 months and other particulars for training a first time CFI applicant.
 
MAKG1 said:
It's not PIC or dual. It's both.

Even if the instructor is acting PIC (unlikely), you're the sole manipulator on a checkout.

That is, unless it's a twin or seaplane and your rating is ASEL.
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That.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Need a regmonster to confirm but I don't think you are supposed to log dual given without putting your name in the students log book.
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Not just your name -- your signature. See 14 CFR 61.189(a).

Not that the cfi would ever get caught or that it matters.
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That's just Greg's opinion, and not one a CFI applicant would want to be espousing on a CFI practical test or otherwise before the FAA.

In any event, I was in much the same situation once about 40 years ago. The instructor who did the checkout seem to care that I didn't have my logbook. I logged it merely as PIC time in my log when I got home, and I have no idea how or even if the instructor logged it -- nor is that my concern.
 
jxdrl said:
The CFI never really gets anything for Dual Given after a certain point unless they go for a Gold Seal right?
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Gold Seal has nothing to do with how many hours of flight training one has given. The only FAA requirements with hours of flight training given are to give training to an initial CFI applicant (see 61.195(h) for details) and for certain positions in a Part 141 flight school.

However, some flight schools may want some number of hours of training given (total and/or recent) in various modes for certain jobs in their school, and when giving instruction to people with their own planes, insurers may want to see a certain amount of experience in that make/model. So, it usually pays to log it all.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Not that the cfi would ever get caught or that it matters.
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I'd be real careful on that. I can think of at least one enforcement action where IT DID matter. If the instructor logs instruction given, he better comply with the rest of the requirements (including the student log book). If something else happens and the FAA looks at the instructor's logs, they may indeed detect the discrepancy.
 
flyingron said:
I'd be real careful on that. I can think of at least one enforcement action where IT DID matter. If the instructor logs instruction given, he better comply with the rest of the requirements (including the student log book). If something else happens and the FAA looks at the instructor's logs, they may indeed detect the discrepancy.
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The FAA will not care that pilot's logbook shows training received properly logged while the instructor's logbook shows nothing (as long as it's not a forged entry by the pilot). OTOH, if an instructor's log shows training given without a corresponding entry in the trainee's logbook, that's a big problem for the instructor, starting with 61.189(a) and then maybe 61.59 (which carries the FAA's equivalent of the death penalty).
 
Ron Levy said:
Not just your name -- your signature. See 14 CFR 61.189(a).
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This is how the instructor logs it. It is irrelevant to how the pilot logs it.

Personally, I'd log it as pic/dual given whether the instructor signs my book or not.
 
It's a checkout,you should be flying the plane as the PIC, log it when you get home.
 
frfly172 said:
It's a checkout,you should be flying the plane as the PIC, log it when you get home.
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If insurance requires a checkout it might be in the fine print that he needs dual, logged. Op needs to bring his logbook or get the dual logged on a sticky note. When he goes home he can lose the sticky and log whatever.
 
ClimbnSink said:
If insurance requires a checkout it might be in the fine print that he needs dual, logged. Op needs to bring his logbook or get the dual logged on a sticky note. When he goes home he can lose the sticky and log whatever.
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True, though I can't think of a reason why the FBO would need it logged in the renter's logbook, since they'll have the entry in their own records.

Another point though, is that if the pilot goes somewhere else months or years later to rent the same make/model, the CFI's signature will count for more than something he wrote there himself. Will probably still require a checkout of course, but possibly fewer minimum hours (depending on the model).
 
Why not just take the logbook and make it easy on everyone. I understand that some fear losing it but jeeezus.

Mine are all fully backed up and safely stored. Losing the original would be a PITA but not the end of the world.

BTW (s)he's taking "a copy of medical"

?????
 
Personally if I was the CFI, I'd just give the guy a sticky with the flight, N number, date, what we did, etc and my signature.

CFI long enough and you'll have some Avery label stickies in your bag.



When I travel I always have my certificates and medical, they live in my wallet.

I don't bring my insurance, no one has ever asked for it ether.

Log is online and can be printed up from anywhere, as for my old paper log, though no one probably cares to see it, that ain't leaving the house, besides it's scanned and stored in the same cloud as my current digital log.

Not having the dual logged could prevent you from renting there again without paying for another checkout, especially if the CFI didn't make note of it elsewhere, add to that you paid the CFI for his services and without his signature he didn't fully render said services.


Also, what the other guy said about a COPY of your medical, no bueno, needs to be the real deal.
 
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James331 said:
Not having the dual logged could prevent you from renting there again without paying for another checkout, especially if the CFI didn't make note of it elsewhere, add to that you paid the CFI for his services and without his signature he didn't fully render said services.
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If they don't keep a record of who has been checked out, I'd consider it an amateur operation.

But personally, I'd just take the logbook, same as I do for any ground or flight lesson.
 
azure said:
If they don't keep a record of who has been checked out, I'd consider it an amateur operation.

But personally, I'd just take the logbook, same as I do for any ground or flight lesson.
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If they don't log dual, it's worse a amateur operation, a rip off, and one not IAW the FARs.

Of course it could be a good place and a bad CFI, or the CFI could have just forgotten too.
 
From the instructor's point of view, you could log that dual for the student in their logbook, on a sticky or on a napkin. But what happens to it later is not your responsibility.
 
jxdrl said:
The CFI is going to log Dual Given (most likely) regardless of what this person does in his logbook. They are separate.

I do agree with the posts above since OP would be PIC under sole manipulator.

I have utilized the sticky note before with a CFI.
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Sounds small, but this is a big correction to your post that is an absolute necessity to understanding the logging regs:

I do agree with the posts above since OP would be entitled to log PIC under sole manipulator.
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frfly172 said:
It's a checkout,you should be flying the plane as the PIC, log it when you get home.
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I don't think so. The whole purpose of a checkout is for the FBO to feel comfortable allowing you to act as PIC in an aircraft that they own or operate.

of course, even though you are not PIC during the checkout, you may certainly log it as PIC.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't think so. The whole purpose of a checkout is for the FBO to feel comfortable allowing you to act as PIC in an aircraft that they own or operate.

of course, even though you are not PIC during the checkout, you may certainly log it as PIC.
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Why does the FBO's opinion of this have SQUAT to do with the situation? The FBO is not accepting ANY responsibility for the safety of flight. It has to be one of the pilots in the plane. Any time you have more than one pilot in the plane you had better MAKE SURE you know who is the PILOT IN COMMAND and what the roles of the pilots are.

Retrieved CapnRon from dropping his plane off at the avionics shop. First thing he asked was if what capacity I wanted him in.
 
flyingron said:
Why does the FBO's opinion of this have SQUAT to do with the situation?
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See No. 5 in my signature block.

Because the FBO has the right to control who is allowed to have operational control of the airplane. It's not an FAA regulatory issue; it's an ownership/control issue. Not to mention an insurance issue if the FBO hands over control to someone who is not qualified under the policy.

To whom is the FBO handing control of the airplane - to the pilot they know nothing about or the CFI going with him?

Absolutely agree it needs to be clear who is acting as PIC. When I am safety pilot in an airplane in which, because of FBO rules or insurance, I am not authorized to act as PIC by the owner, I make it clear I am not acting as PIC on that flight. I know some don't care SQUAT about others' property rights. I do.
 
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