How to handle this situation?

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by flyguy_17, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. flyguy_17

    flyguy_17 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Nevada
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    flyguy_17
    OK, here's a little background first: I recently purchased a 172 with a co-owner that is a guy I have known for several years. He is a newly minted pilot with around 100 hours with most of his training in a Cherokee, but transitioned to a 172 near the end of his training. Myself, I have had my ticket for 13 years and have around 400 hours (Sad, I know). Prior to us purchasing the A/C, I took him up for a flight in it to check it out (an aircraft owned by a friend of mine, and of which I had flown several times before) and although we flew with myself as PIC, he did fly some from the right seat to check out that the plane was satisfactory to him as well. All was good and we made the purchase. Since then, in the past 4 months of owning the aircraft, I have not flown with him as PIC...until this past weekend...
    The situation: We decided to take a flight together to a nearby Fly-in. It was decided I would fly the leg there, he would fly the return. The flight down was beautiful and non-eventful and we both enjoyed the day at the fly-in. But as I climbed in for my first ride in the right seat of our airplane, a few things not to my liking ensued. First, I noticed he missed a step or two in the pre-takeoff checklist. Non-critical items, but none-the-less, no step should be missed. Diligence is of the utmost importance in my opinion. He then proceeded to taxi without ever touching the mixture, leaving it full rich. Again, not critical, but our airplane loves to foul plugs unless leaned aggressively while taxiing. Something we have discussed together before. He called the wrong run runway designation several times when announcing his intentions over Unicom. Then upon takeoff, he proceeded to climb with a very high AOA and what looked like about 50 KIAS from the right seat, in quite turbulent air along with a high DA. The stall horn blipped for a second at one point. I was ready to take the controls from him at any moment and remained on very high alert. I know I definitely should have said something right then and there but I didn't. Even after the momentary stall horn, he continued to climb at a very low airspeed. Once we got to altitude and leveled off, he still hadn't touched that mixture control, which was still firm against the firewall. At that point I asked him how he was taught to lean and his reply was "We never really covered that." Really??? I then asked him if I could show him and he was receptive of my directions. We then proceeded to discuss a few things he had been taught. He told me his instructor always made him fly full speed in the pattern and stay at altitude until on short final where he was to pull the power and dive for the runway. Again, I was speechless. So much for a stable approach eh? I did voice my disagreement on that. As we approached our home airport, he called out his intentions for the favored runway, then lined up for the midfield TAXIWAY (NOT parallel to any of our runways) and called 5 mi final straight in! I immediately asked him if he truly planned on landing on the taxiway and after a brief discussion he changed course to line up for the runway, but then called our own tail number wrong. I asked him if he uses LGUMPS, he said no. Once on final, he basically did as he said he was shown and chopped power and dove for the runway. He never used carb heat. He did round-out and make a decent touchdown, but in the middle of the left half of the runway, proceeding to comment how he always lands way left of centerline. (My mind was screaming "that should never be acceptable! Fly the freakin airplane, don't let it fly you!") He then left the flaps full down the entire taxi in and used the incorrect control inputs while taxiing in the wind to our hangar. By this point I was furious inside at how such a fresh ticket holder could be so sloppy, but I sat silently. I didn't even know what to say, but was thankful just to be on the ground alive and our airplane not bent up. We put the airplane to bed and went our separate ways. But every since then I cant quit thinking about every detail of that flight, especially the climb-out/stall horn part and how that could have killed us both. I can see the NTSB report in my head. I've kicked myself over and over for not saying anything to almost every mistake I noticed. Don't give me wrong, I in no way claim to be the worlds greatest pilot and am always learning, and I would hope when flying with a fellow pilot that they would mention my mistakes and I would be open and receptive of that. Now I don't know what to do. I know I need to talk to him about it, but want to approach him the right way, as to not just beat him up or sound like I'm nit-picking. After all, I'm not a CFI or examiner, so don't want to come across like that. But, most of all, I don't want him going out and killing himself and/or a passenger and know I never said anything. I also don't want him wrecking our airplane. He has told me how he thinks I'm such a great pilot and far better than him, so maybe he'll take heed to my input.
    Any thoughts or input???
     
  2. korben88

    korben88 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    504
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Troy
    Not knowing his temperment it is tough to say. Some people take constructive criticism well, others act like you slept with their wife, sister and mother. Then kicked their dog.

    If he's the sort that woukd take your advice to heart without getting butt hurt then I would suggest taking him up and showing him a few things. Or maybe suggest that the 2 of you go up with a cfi (not his previous cfi) and take a 172 lesson.
     
  3. flyguy_17

    flyguy_17 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Nevada
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    flyguy_17
    Haha no kidding. He's a pretty quiet, mellow guy.
     
  4. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,350
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    Sounds like you should just let him fly on his own and not bother him. Everyone does not do things the same. If you can't handle what he does you should not have a partner. It sounds like he is more comfortable in the airplane than you are if he scared you so bad. LOL.
    I would not say anything to him, he is learning. Maybe he didn't like the way you flew the airplane either. Maybe he thought you were burning the valves up when you leaned it. :)
    He must be doing something right if he passed the FAA checkride!
     
  5. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,015
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I am not being snarky: since people can be very, very different, it is very, very hard to tell whether your post is describing a bad pilot, an overly compulsive evaluator, or exactly where on the continuum between the two the situation falls.

    It also makes it difficult to advise what if anything you should do, although since you say he was receptive to your comments, perhaps the most reasonable avenue is to suggest - soft sell - he take a lesson with your CFI.
     
  6. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2011
    Messages:
    796
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WI Flyer
    I think they could be some room to talk about some issues, though one has to go to sole ownership to have things totally 'their way'.

    It's hard to see traffic with the nose way up on climb out for an extended amount of time. There is also the potential for a new flyer to take off with a partially lean engine and then have issues. I know the experienced type lean enough so the engine dies at full power.

    I just think there's room to talk about things in an unassuming way without being labeled an azz. Having a partner in ownership who is an azz doesn't sound like much fun.
     
  7. RV10flyer

    RV10flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,866
    Location:
    Ohio
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RV10flyer
    For those thinking about a partnership, both pilots should take the other up in their regular rental, that they are comfortable in. I would want to see everything from pre-flight to tie-down.

    For the OP, I may have him come along on a short xc with 2 or 3 stops and lunch planned. Wait until weather is marginal, ask him to join you for your weather planning and get his input. Many 100 hr pilots have never been above a scattered layer, flown at full gross/aft cg limit or flown in mvfr conditions, etc. He has possibly had his ticket just long enough to get rusty and may not have had a good cfi to begin with. He may learn a lot from you, but you will want to be able to explain your decision-making processes along the way. Good luck.
     
  8. mscard88

    mscard88 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,649
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    You'd better get him some instruction or else prepare for a crumbled airplane.

    What In Tarnation Clapet.jpg C172 nose first crash.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
    Cpt_Kirk likes this.
  9. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,824
    Location:
    Prattville, Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fresh Prince of PrattVegas
    There is no way the guy you described passed a checkride.
     
    oregonboy109 likes this.
  10. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    5,346
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    Maybe suggest that you both get some "transition training" wink wink from an independent CFI. You know, just to get the most out of your new plane. Then have a pre-talk with the instructor with your concerns and let him be the bad guy.
     
  11. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,015
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    :confused2::confused2::confused2::confused2:
     
  12. ifly4fun

    ifly4fun Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Suffolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jeff
    How close is he to a BFR? maybe suggest he use a different CFI than the one he trained with?
     
  13. luvflyin

    luvflyin Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,005
    Location:
    Vancouver WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    If. I say again, IF what he says about his CFI is true there is a serious problem. I find it hard to believe.
     
  14. bradg33

    bradg33 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    651
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Esquire99
    To me, the post described what I think is a pretty typical "experience" between a fresh pilot and a semi-experienced private pilot. The fresh pilot is still a little rough around the edges, but is learning on every flight and is able to get the plane up and down without killing anyone or bending any metal. The other guy, a semi-experienced private pilot who thinks he knows everything about everything, is appalled when another pilot does things differently or not as "good" as he does. Add in the complication of them being partners in an airplane and you've got a recipe for some tension.
     
  15. azure

    azure Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    5,897
    Location:
    Vermont
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azure
    I'm pretty sure he meant during taxi. ;)

    But I agree with you, it's pretty hard to say how much of what has been described is an overcritical partner and how much is bad airmanship. The non-stabilized approach is actually the way landing an airplane used to be taught, and many older pilots still swear by the power off approach (though in this case, it depends on whether he really dove for the runway or just glided at a steep descent angle because of having power at idle.

    There's no excuse for the bad radio work though, and if the OP's description is accurate it really sounds as though this guy may not be cut out to be a pilot. (That's assuming it's not a bad case of mic fright of course, though the OP's description doesn't suggest that.) It's water under the bridge now, but this is why I would never take on a partner whose flying skills I hadn't witnessed first hand and been very comfortable with. The best advice so far has probably been to suggest some dual with a CFI - and NOT this guy's CFI but the OP's or someone he trusts. If he's just rusty or the victim of bad instruction that should get him on the right path fairly quickly, and if he's just not pilot material that should be evident pretty soon too... in which case how easily this gets resolved will depend on how well crafted the OP's partnership agreement is. :(
     
  16. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2011
    Messages:
    796
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WI Flyer
    Yes, I meant ground leaning, to the point where engine would seriously stumble or quit if full power was applied for takeoff. This assumes one forgot to richen the mixture prior to take off.
     
  17. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    12,147
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Well, sounds like you should have vetted your partner out to your liking a little better.

    As far as what you said about nearly killing you and breaking the plane, this sounds a wee bit mellow dramatic, sloppy yes, likley death and dismemberment not so much.

    You're both grown ups, have a sit down with him and discuss your concerns.
     
    hockeyrcks9901, KA550 and mscard88 like this.
  18. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    6,931
    Location:
    Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    Some of the OP's concerns may be valid, but...

    On the one hand, he criticizes the other pilot for not following checklists.

    On the other hand, he criticizes the other pilot for not aggressively ground leaning, which usually is not on the checklist. I'd have to look to see if it is for the C172, but I don't recall it.

    Cirrus pilots do often lean aggressively on the ground, and it's a good idea. And one that is now blessed by the POH:

    From the Starting Engine Checklist of the SR22T:
    1. Mixture ........... LEAN until RPM rises to a maximum value. Leave the mixture in this position during taxi and until run-up.
     
  19. Cooter

    Cooter Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    922
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    He may have been a little nervous and sensed you hawking his every move. Decent pilots can look pretty foolish sometimes when they get nervous and he may have picked up that his habit patterns are different than yours. I would have a chat with him about anything that is a safety issue, but otherwise keep quiet and let him learn. If he thinks you are going to act like an examiner whenever you fly together, that's probably not going to work out well.
     
  20. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    35,609
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    I learned long ago when flying with my co-owners that we don't do things the same way. I got over it.

    One likes low and slow maneuvering, but we do have a STOL kit. The other is the quintessential fly-by-numbers pilot. Both seem to return the airplane to the hangar on one piece with no particularly odd wear and tear other than prop dings when one takes it to dirt strips, and I've added to that tally myself before.

    I'd be very hesitant to try to diagnose the dynamics that may have been going on in your cockpit, from an Internet one-sided description.

    Some of those things I remember doing as a freshly minted private pilot, especially the mixture control. Not so much the diving for the airport part. If he's open to discussion, I'd suggest seeing if he'd be interested in coming along for a flight with me and my CFI and then pre-notifying the CFI that we'll have a "discussion" about stabilized approaches and power settings while he's watching. No need to make a huge deal out of it at first. Just show him better airmanship, and he'll very likely figure out that he needs more practice.

    In co-ownerships another way to handle inexperienced pilots is to have the co-ownership choose a CFI known to be though but fair, that everyone has to do an hour a year with, and stick it in the club/group rules. Pick a CFI everyone trusts and likes, and make it optional to also renew someone's Flight Review status with that instructor as a bonus. Make an annual flight with the "club approved CFI" non-optional just as a standardization thing. Usually best done before someone joins, not after, but can still be pitched as a "good idea we all should do to get more training than every other year" to all of the co-owners, if you think you have a problem child in the group.

    We don't, because we've never seen anything about each other that worries any of us, but I'm sure we'd "vote" to do it to someone if we did.
     
    James331 likes this.
  21. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    12,634
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Eight Balla
    In my case, the Other Guy is the old experienced pilot, and I'm the newbie (in relative terms.) He has habits I don't particularly like and I have habits he doesn't particularly like, but we deal with it and trust each other's airmanship. We generally avoid flying with each other.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  22. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,015
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I thought that but it was the "experienced type" that threw me. To me, the "experienced type" sets the throttle for full power (whether that be full rich or something less if appropriate) before taking off.
     
  23. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,015
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    You might or might not be right. I tend to avoid judging where on the continuum people I've never met are.
     
  24. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    339
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    455 Bravo Uniform
    You could approach it as follows: "Hey buddy, I was thinking about somethings the other day after our flight. We did the following things differently: (list em). I wonder why? Maybe we each learned different ways of doing things from our CFIs, but it got us our FAA certs. I worry that maybe one of us is doing each step differently is somehow wrong or dangerous? Wanna try to meet and fly with a CFI together in the 172 while he flies the plane and observe what he does, and ask questions? I'll pay for half if you will."
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    35,609
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    I'd rather see the pilots both fly and the CFI teach and just trade seats at some airport in that scenario than just paying the CFI to fly everyone around, but the idea is sound.

    How about, "Let's grab a CFI and fly to X" and make X a good lunch stop. Swap seats. Fly home.

    Bonus if it's far enough away to have to look at weather enroute during and before the flight. Everyone new needs more long XC weather experience, almost always.
     
    iflyvfr likes this.
  26. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    12,305
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    As a CAP pilot, I fly with other pilots ALL the time.

    CAP makes an attempt to standardize, but there are still quite a lot of variations. Particularly, there are a few less-than-advisible things in the "approved" checklists, such as clearing the plugs at 1800 RPM before shutdown. That one has resulted in at least one prop strike I witnessed (it picked up a wood chock), and it sure ****es off the neighbors.

    The one variable I've seen a bit different is that I've only met one "pilot" (actually, he was an observer only, and a pilot-wannabe) who wouldn't take gentle constructive criticism. And he's the only guy I've ever heard of getting kicked out of CAP -- for grabbing the controls from the right seat on short final without warning or comment (and yes, I was PIC) because he wanted to "shadow" the inputs.

    Outside CAP, you have to ask how "set in his ways" he is. As a new pilot, I wouldn't expect much of that, but it could be just anything. If he can't respond to gentle criticism appropriately, or redirect to a good CFI, he's not an appropriate partner.

    The chop-n-drop method really should have carb heat in the event a go-around is needed (in a 172 -- note that it is NOT usually needed in a Cherokee), but he won't even know if the engine quits, 'cause he's at idle. With carb heat, that isn't so bad. Fouling plugs is annoying, but not dangerous unless he's also uncritical during run-up. Much of this is difference in style and inexperience. But the latter can be solved easily. Just remember that there isn't only one way to approach and land, though if he's unaware, that would be a problem.

    The one I had to learn early on in CAP was that the Oakland guys all like to approach at 130 KIAS until short final, then pull to idle and add flaps as they pass the placarded speeds. Why? There might be a bizjet on their butt. Not a problem I had training at a 2400 foot field.

    For the climb, you say it LOOKED like 50 knots. I'd guess it was actually closer to 59 knots. At 50 knots, the stall warning would be pretty ****ed off. You can do a Vx climb in a 172 legitimately up to pattern altitude, though it's not a technique I like much. It's easier with 10 flaps. A blipped stall warning is normal if there is a gusty wind, and it's only worrisome if it keeps doing it. A no-flap Vx climb takes a whole lot of pitch angle.

    It sounds like this guy was trained to fear engine failures in the pattern above all, at the expense of other risks. It's not that rare.

    Be willing to take some training yourself. It sounds like you may not be that familiar with the limits of the airplane.

    Carb heat is recommended in 172s anytime you're below the tach green arc. If you've ever flown with a carb temp gauge, you would have found it is not always necessary. Though it's hard to tell without the gauge. Last weekend, I did some landings in a carb 182, and operated it well below the MP gauge green arc for approaches, yet the carb temp barely got down to 50 deg, even full rich.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  27. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    12,147
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Slowing a (guessing CAP 182) down from 130 isn't hard, just energy management, coming right up to the field at 130 and choppy and dirtying the thing up to cross the fence at vref shouldn't be asking too much, also doesn't clog up the pattern.
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  28. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    3,731
    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad Z
    I was thinking the same thing.

    Let's go down the list:
    1) missed a step or two in the pre-takeoff checklist <--do you know for sure he missed it or did not verbalize it? I'd consider it sloppy, and potentially dangerous, but not unexpected for a new pilot.
    2) proceeded to taxi without ever touching the mixture <--I worked for a guy that replaced too many burnt valves and insisted we not lean his 172s on taxi. This is an issue of technique, not safety.
    3) He called the wrong run runway designation <--I've been known to make that mistake. Sloppy, but not necessarily dangerous.
    4) climb with a very high AOA and what looked like about 50 KIAS <-- what speed was it? You know from power-on stalls that the stall horn can be blaring yet it still needs more AOA to stall.
    5) then lined up for the midfield TAXIWAY (NOT parallel to any of our runways) and called 5 mi final straight in <--I'm not really sure what was going on. I don't have an issue with straight ins, though.
    6) called our own tail number wrong <--he's new to the plane, right?
    7) I asked him if he uses LGUMPS, he said no. <--why would you? What do you do for the 'U' or the 'P'?
    8) Once on final, he basically did as he said he was shown and chopped power and dove for the runway <--that's a matter of technique
    9) He never used carb heat <--again, sloppy checklist use, but forgiveable
    10) always lands way left of centerline <--probably because his CFI never held him accountable for landing on centerline. Sloppy, but not necessarily unsafe.
    11) By this point I was furious <--dude, I can tell!
    12) I'm not a CFI or examiner <--I can tell that too. As a CFI, you learn quickly not get furious with pilots who are not performing at 100%. You use the right technique to instill proper behaviors.
    13) I don't want him going out and killing himself <--that's laudable.
     
    pburger likes this.
  29. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,726
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    :yeahthat:

    This is the best approach I've heard here so far (in my opinion) because it's 1) people savvy, 2) doesn't assume he's "wrong". Nothing you described sounds really terrible other than if (and only if) the climb out was as slow as you say. And even then it's mostly bad for the engine (they get hot doing full power slow flight!). A C-172 with two in the front is not really very close to stall speed at IAS of 50. Calling the wrong runway and lining up on the taxiway are the only things that really gave me pause as safety items. Chop & drop is fine in a draggy C-172 and I was trained that way (albeit with carb heat on!). Now if you plan to move on to higher performance and slicker airframes, yes it's a bad habit.

    John
     
  30. FlySince9

    FlySince9 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,470
    Location:
    Huntersville, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    HawkFlyer
    Solution:

    FOR SALE
    1/2 Share in Cessna Skyhawk
    CFI or blind/Deaf guy preferred
     
    Somedudeintn likes this.
  31. noobJohn

    noobJohn Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Messages:
    443
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    Another solution :

    Don't fly with the guy. As long as he pays his half of the bills and doesn't break the airplane (y'all are well insured, right?), let him be.
     
    SoCal RV Flyer likes this.
  32. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    12,305
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    Yup, it's a 182T and it's not hard. Just different. It's definitely not a "stabilized approach." Not clogging up a pattern with jets in it was the point. And there is a 6000x150 runway past that fence. Lots of space.
     
  33. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    12,147
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    "Stabilized approaches" in a small GA single are no fun, and take FOREVER.

    Plus I've always like to have some energy and it requires more skills, using power throughout final is kinda dumbing things down, I'd rather play with my energy and L/D curve then be a throttle jockey.
     
    3 in the green likes this.
  34. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,293
    Location:
    Baltimore md.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim cooper
    Sounds like you might have been more familiar with his abilitys before you signed on. Partnerships are dicey even under the best of circumstances.
     
  35. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,018
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoCal RV Flyer
    Best solution yet. If this guy's giving you a bad vibe, avoid him altogether.
     
  36. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    12,305
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    Well, just don't be trying the "overhead" in a 182. That's really overdoing it, and civilian towers don't seem to like it much.

    There are lots of ways to land a draggy 182 safely, though, especially on a long and wide runway.
     
  37. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,015
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I actually missed that one (what's the "L" anyway?).

    I actually have a theory that GUMPS in a fixed gear (never mind fixed prop) aircraft is a very bad idea. The reason is the answer to your question - what you do is learn there are no consequences for missing it, which makes it pretty useless as a prompt when one transitions to a retract.

    (Of course, I'm generally anti-mnemonic, except, of course for the really important one - SMALS - so take that with a grain of salt)
     
  38. TommyG

    TommyG Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    895
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    Some of the issues are really petty. Flaps down during the taxi, so what. Where is the harm? Not proper control input for taxi. Still no big deal. I know 100 pilots that don't do that unless the winds are really kicking. The only things I read as a potential hazard is to steep of takeoff and lining up for a taxiway. A lot of what bothers you is your opinion. I am sure he can come on here and complain about things that bother him.
    My advice, let the small things go unless if it is dangerous, or don't fly together.
     
    KA550 likes this.
  39. flyguy_17

    flyguy_17 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Nevada
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    flyguy_17
    Alright guys, first let me say I obviously came off the wrong way in sounding petty/judgmental/over-critical in my OP and "furious" was definitely a wrong choice of word. I guess I was just kind of shocked at the amount of mistakes and what seemed to me sloppy, especially out of a newly minted ticket holder. Yes, MOST of the mistakes were minor and not critical to the safety of the flight. I mentioned them all more as observations. I guess it was all of it added together. And I stand by the feeling of discomfort riding shotgun with a fresh guy that had us near stall speed within a couple hundred feet of the ground and a nose high attitude, yet failed to recognize or correct.
    Let me attempt to answer to some of the responses:
    Its not about doing it the same way I do. I'm sure there are many things I could do different and better. I fully believe it has NOTHING to do with his comfort, more on the lines of ignorance is bliss.
    He did tell me several times that he likes the way I fly the airplane, but I take those comments very humbly...I could be better and have a lot to learn! So please don't think I'm a know-it-all.
    As for the leaning, he had no clue and I can assure he didn't assume I was burning valves. He was just never taught...I found that surprising, out of his instructor, not blaming him. (Although I strongly feel you should always ask if there is something you don't know about). BTW I lean very aggressive on the ground until ready for TO, but run ROP in cruise (We do not currently have an EGT or CHT gauge) I do this because our Continental is prone to fouling plugs during taxi/idle. I was taught this way from my A&P/friend/previous owner of my airplane. Feel free to give me pointers if you have a different way of doing it...I'm open to learn :)
    As for the missed steps in the TO checklist, yes I know he missed them because one of them is "check doors and windows closed and locked" yet he took off with his window open and didn't realize it/close it until about 5 minutes into the flight. Again, not critical, just an observation.
    Calling the wrong runway numbers, yeah I do it too, we all have I'm sure. And yes, maybe he's still getting used to our N-number.
    I have absolutely no problem with straight in's, especially at our airport. The straight in part was irrelevant, it was the part of lining up with the taxiway AT OUR HOME AIRPORT and not knowing it that baffled me (although I have in fact seen the taxiway used to land on in very strong crosswinds before ;) )
    The landing technique-I guess I was unaware that was a common practice of some CFI's teaching that way, but its fine if its safe and works I suppose. Plus, I'm sure he will find the technique that works best for him. I just would like to see him be authoritive on putting the airplane where he wants it, not just be ok with "I always land left of center", but that's
     
  40. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,726
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    After reading your latest post I'd say you have three things to deal with:
    1) There are many things that are not right/wrong or better/worse just different. Learn what these are and let them go. Heck, you might find something in that bag you like better than how you're doing it now. I still suspect most of what you observed falls in this category.
    2) You and he share a vested interest in maintenance since you share those costs. (Leaning on the ground, for example.) You and he need to come to a common understanding on those. Perhaps with inputs from your mechanic.
    3) If (after passing through the above filters) there are genuine safety of flight issues, address them gently perhaps by getting a CFI involved.

    John