How to fly this approach?

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mtuomi

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KCTJ West Georgia Rgnl ILS/LOC 35.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1702/06016IL35.PDF

You're arriving from the south on the 006 radial at 3000ft from LGC VOR. There's no NoPT, there's a procedure turn depicted so it is a mandatory part of the approach.
So - let's say you are cleared for the approach, then lose comms. How exactly are you supposed to fly it?
 
Very carefully?

sorry, couldn't resist.

(*snorfle*)
 
Unless cleared straight in or vectored, you are supposed to fly a reversal here. If in comms, I'd make sure I'm on the same page as the controller. If no comm, fly reversal. Even if they may not expect it, this is the correct procedure
 
genna said:
Unless cleared straight in or vectored, you are supposed to fly a reversal here. If in comms, I'd make sure I'm on the same page as the controller. If no comm, fly reversal. Even if they may not expect it, this is the correct procedure
Click to expand...

Yeah that's what I think, but how exactly you would fly the reversal? Fly to IAF, do an improvised 180 to track the outbound course, fly the procedure turn, and then fly back?
Or I could just fly a 360 at IAF, there's no requirement to fly out for the procedure turn, only a requirement on how close you need to stay.
I guess another question is - why is there no NoPT in the feeder from LGC?
 
I would do it as if flying a missed approach. Iaf is at missed approach hold. Reverse in that published hold. You will need to lose 600ft anyway.
 
No NoPt because you need to lose 600 ft to be able to straight in. Also. IAF and FAF are the same point. Not conducive for stable approach if you have to turn and pick up GS at FAF
 
mtuomi said:
So - let's say you are cleared for the approach, then lose comms. How exactly are you supposed to fly it?
Click to expand...

In my opinion, comms or no comms is not important. What you were cleared to do is. Were you cleared to do the full approach procedure or did they give you a final vector that would put you on the localizer and subsequently clear you for the approach?

If you were cleared for the full procedure, the procedure should be flown the same regardless of whether or not you are in radio contact. The way I'd fly it is to fly to the IAF (the NDB) which is also the holding point for the missed approach. I'd fly the hold as a means to safely get turned around, then proceed outbound to do the procedure turn.

Seems like an odd approach, at least if you were going to do the full procedure from the direction you suggest. But judging by the airport's location I'd venture to guess that you'd never do the full procedure, instead receiving vectors to final from Atlanta Approach.
 
Not seeing any problem.

Hit the IAF fix and turn outbound. Intercept localizer.
 
denverpilot said:
Not seeing any problem.

Hit the IAF fix and turn outbound. Intercept localizer.
Click to expand...

Turn outbound after IAF, left or right turn? And flying it at 250kts, how is my obstacle clearance? I am below MSA at that point?
 
mtuomi said:
Turn outbound after IAF, left or right turn? And flying it at 250kts, how is my obstacle clearance? I am below MSA at that point?
Click to expand...

Why would you be below MSA if you're not on a published portion of the approach?
 
mondtster said:
Why would you be below MSA if you're not on a published portion of the approach?
Click to expand...

MSA is 3100, let's say I would turn left at IAF to do the course reversal for the course reversal (there's no official way to do this turn). How far is the obstacle clearance guaranteed in that direction?

I know this is partly semantics, I'm guessing no-one would ever fly this approach from that direction without VTF/straight in. But this also opens new perspectives to understand how approaches are designed.
 
mtuomi said:
MSA is 3100, let's say I would turn left at IAF to do the course reversal for the course reversal (there's no official way to do this turn). How far is the obstacle clearance guaranteed in that direction?
Click to expand...

MSA is 3100 for the 25 miles around the NDB. If you don't descent below that why would there be a concern with obstacle clearance while turning around, regardless of whether you are following an official reversal or not?
 
mondtster said:
MSA is 3100 for the 25 miles around the NDB. If you don't descent below that why would there be a concern with obstacle clearance while turning around, regardless of whether you are following an official reversal or not?
Click to expand...

But I'm already at 3000 when I'm flying in from LGC?
 
mtuomi said:
Turn outbound after IAF, left or right turn? And flying it at 250kts, how is my obstacle clearance? I am below MSA at that point?
Click to expand...
Right turn makes sense. Why would you want to make a turn to the left. And why would you be flying it at 250 knots?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Why would you be flying it at 250 knots?
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I already admitted this is semantics, but I would fly it at 250 knots because it is allowed.
The honest question is - how far out is the obstacle clearance "guaranteed" in a procedure like this, that requires a course reversal to do the course reversal?
 
Iceman21 said:
http://code7700.com/required_obstacle_clearance.html

That should help. 250kts on an approach will not keep you in a protected area because your turn radius will be too high.

Hit the IAF, fly the outbound course, Procedure turn inbound, intercept glideslope.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link!

Next question - is there an approved/expected method to complete the course reversal needed to fly the outbound course?
Common sense would say just fly the published hold and then fly the ILS, but is there an actual documented procedure on how to do this?
 
The published hold is part of the missed approach, it is not part of the procedure turn. Fly to the NDB, turn outbound and track 168 for 2 minutes or so depending on speed, turn left to 123, complete the procedure turn, intercept the localizer inbound, intercept the glideslope and down you go.
 
mtuomi said:
KCTJ West Georgia Rgnl ILS/LOC 35.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1702/06016IL35.PDF

You're arriving from the south on the 006 radial at 3000ft from LGC VOR. There's no NoPT, there's a procedure turn depicted so it is a mandatory part of the approach.
So - let's say you are cleared for the approach, then lose comms. How exactly are you supposed to fly it?
Click to expand...

Exactly how you would have flown it if you hadn't lost com. If you had lost com before being cleared there might be some discussion
 
  • Proceed to GPQ at 3100
  • At GPQ establish reverse on the localizer 168*, descend and maintain 2900
  • I'd fly for a minute, then turn left 123*
  • Fly for another minute, then right turn 180* and fly heading 303 until established
  • Once established descend and maintain 2400 until catching the glide slope at GPQ
 
mtuomi said:
Yeah that's what I think, but how exactly you would fly the reversal? Fly to IAF, do an improvised 180 to track the outbound course, fly the procedure turn, and then fly back?
Or I could just fly a 360 at IAF, there's no requirement to fly out for the procedure turn, only a requirement on how close you need to stay.
I guess another question is - why is there no NoPT in the feeder from LGC?
Click to expand...

Yeah. Only requirement is to do it on the the side indicated by the barb stay within 10 miles. Just making a direct entry into that holding pattern would be just fine. Yeah, its the missed approach fix, but its on the right side, nothing wrong with it. It's only 3.6 miles from the NDB to to runway. It's only an 18 degree turn from 006 to 348 but it looks like the rules are thats enough to want you to have more time to get aligned straight in.

Edit: Like someone else said, altitude loss is a likely reason for the NoPT
 
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mtuomi said:
Turn outbound after IAF, left or right turn? And flying it at 250kts, how is my obstacle clearance? I am below MSA at that point?
Click to expand...

You ain't supposed to be doin 250. AIM 5-4-9 a. 3. 200 is the speed limit. There are a few approaches that have lower ones. It's on the chart
 
mtuomi said:
Turn outbound after IAF, left or right turn? And flying it at 250kts, how is my obstacle clearance? I am below MSA at that point?
Click to expand...

Your below the MSA the entire time. The route from LGC to GPQ is a 100 feet low. The Procedure Turn altitude is 200 feet low. The FAF is 700 feet low. MSA is an I'm lost panic altitiude
 
Right, I wouldn't worry about the MSA as long as you are on a published route -- the feeder or the localizer.
 
It's not just altitude loss for the lack of "No PT"...the feeder route takes you straight to the FAF / glideslope intercept with a 18 degree left turn to the approach course. The only way that would be a "No PT" is if the feeder took you to an intermediate fix that allowed you to be aligned on the approach course prior to glideslope intercept (and at the correct altitude as well).

This is why we get radar vectors to the approach.
 
mtuomi said:
I already admitted this is semantics, but I would fly it at 250 knots because it is allowed.
The honest question is - how far out is the obstacle clearance "guaranteed" in a procedure like this, that requires a course reversal to do the course reversal?
Click to expand...
What is the approach speed for an approach category D aircraft? Is it 250kts? That is wht the approach is designed for.
 
luvflyin said:
Exactly how you would have flown it if you hadn't lost com. If you had lost com before being cleared there might be some discussion
Click to expand...

Losing comms before being cleared doesn't change a whole lot. The only thing that changes is you fly whatever approach you can using the FP you filed.
 
Brad Z said:
It's not just altitude loss for the lack of "No PT"...the feeder route takes you straight to the FAF / glideslope intercept with a 18 degree left turn to the approach course. The only way that would be a "No PT" is if the feeder took you to an intermediate fix that allowed you to be aligned on the approach course prior to glideslope intercept (and at the correct altitude as well).

This is why we get radar vectors to the approach.
Click to expand...

Radar is a crutch. LOL. Yeah, that makes sense. Regardless of how far out the FAF is, how narrow the turn is or if the feeder altitude is low enough, I don't think I've ever seen a NoPT route go right to the FAF.
 
mtuomi said:
KCTJ West Georgia Rgnl ILS/LOC 35.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1702/06016IL35.PDF

You're arriving from the south on the 006 radial at 3000ft from LGC VOR. There's no NoPT, there's a procedure turn depicted so it is a mandatory part of the approach.
So - let's say you are cleared for the approach, then lose comms. How exactly are you supposed to fly it?
Click to expand...
How you were cleared. The only comms you need after that is "contact Tower," plus perhaps traffic calls.
 
Has anyone thought to see what the FAA's Instrument Procedures Handbook has to say about this?

RTFM. Read The FAA Manual! LOL

luvflyin said:
AIM 5-4-9 a. 3. 200 is the speed limit.
Click to expand...
Amazing what you can find by reading the applicable FAA publication, isn't it?

Brad Z said:
What is the approach speed for an approach category D aircraft? Is it 250kts?
Click to expand...
That's why we have flaps/slats.

On an approach like this we would be partially configured and slowed prior to the IAF. On the 737, for example, flaps 5 is typically good for 180kts on the approach--Flaps 10 if you need to descend at that speed. Gear down/Flaps 15 turning inbound will get us down to 160kts then landing flaps (30 or 40) and target speed) passing the FAF.
 
mtuomi said:
KCTJ West Georgia Rgnl ILS/LOC 35.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1702/06016IL35.PDF

You're arriving from the south on the 006 radial at 3000ft from LGC VOR. There's no NoPT, there's a procedure turn depicted so it is a mandatory part of the approach.
So - let's say you are cleared for the approach, then lose comms. How exactly are you supposed to fly it?
Click to expand...

I would turn inbound on the localizer at GPQ and descend. I would do that even if not cleared for the approach.
 
mtuomi said:
How to fly this approach?
Click to expand...
After reading just the title, before I even opened the thread, the snarky answer in my head was "From the IAF!" :D

And it applies here too.
I agree with others here.
As you hinted, follow the 006 radial and when you cross the NDB (and LOC), make a right turn to more than the outbound bearing to intercept the LOC outbound. Then PT and the rest of the approach.

And yes, this applies only if flying the full approach, which is kinda implied in the question.
If ATC gives RV to intercept the LOC and then the coms are lost, they bypassed the need for the full approach from the IAF so no turnarounds, just intercept LOC and descend to the rwy.
 
Given that the barbed PT depiction allows you to fly any course reversal you prefer, as long as you're on the correct side, I'd cross CPQ and make a right turn direct entry into a holding pattern and use that as my procedure turn. I wouldn't bother intercepting the LOC on the outbound leg...too much monkey motion. Keep it simple.
 
azure said:
Right, I wouldn't worry about the MSA as long as you are on a published route -- the feeder or the localizer.
Click to expand...
You don't worry about the MSA period. For normal operations, the MSA is entirely without meaning. It's purely for emergencies. The minimum altitude for any part of an instrument approach is found somewhere other than the MSA circle: either it's part of the published procedure (as this transition is) or you're at some other cleared altitude.
If you think you need to look at the MSA circle during a normal approach, you're doing it wrong.
 
Larry in TN said:
Has anyone thought to see what the FAA's Instrument Procedures Handbook has to say about this?

RTFM. Read The FAA Manual! LOL


Amazing what you can find by reading the applicable FAA publication, isn't it?


That's why we have flaps/slats.

On an approach like this we would be partially configured and slowed prior to the IAF. On the 737, for example, flaps 5 is typically good for 180kts on the approach--Flaps 10 if you need to descend at that speed. Gear down/Flaps 15 turning inbound will get us down to 160kts then landing flaps (30 or 40) and target speed) passing the FAF.
Click to expand...
MauleSkinner said:
Given that the barbed PT depiction allows you to fly any course reversal you prefer, as long as you're on the correct side, I'd cross CPQ and make a right turn direct entry into a holding pattern and use that as my procedure turn. I wouldn't bother intercepting the LOC on the outbound leg...too much monkey motion. Keep it simple.
Click to expand...


Yep, no reason you couldn't treat it as a direct entry into a hold in lieu of a procedure turn.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Given that the barbed PT depiction allows you to fly any course reversal you prefer, as long as you're on the correct side, I'd cross CPQ and make a right turn direct entry into a holding pattern and use that as my procedure turn. I wouldn't bother intercepting the LOC on the outbound leg...too much monkey motion. Keep it simple.
Click to expand...

Yup I'd fly it this way. Outbound on the LOC then PT for my instrument students though! ;) :D
 
mscard88 said:
But definitely full approaches are required training.
Click to expand...
It is a full approach either way.

The direct-entry-holding-pattern reversal is much simpler. Only advantage I can think of in not doing that is if you need more time but the intercept outbound/PT method is a lot more complex.
 
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