How often do you make mistakes?

[skidoo]

I consider myself pretty good at doing things right or making good judgments. But, I also realize that I'm prone to mistakes occasionally. For example, I did a cross country landed, spend about 15 minutes on the ground, then went to depart on the return leg. The engine was difficult to start (more discussion on an upcoming thread). Finally got it started and promptly leaned for ground operation. Taxied out and did a run-up. There was a radio call for another ac coming in to downwind. Instructor said there was plenty of room and we could go.

So, I roll out to the runway and start to apply power, engine hesitates and stumbles, and I was thinking was that because of maybe the hard start prior. I remember thinking should I abort and start over, but I didn't. I advanced the throttle further and the engine smoothed out, so I continued.

It took off ok, but seemed to be climbing just a tad slower than typical, but it was climbing. At about 50 to 100 feet AGL and about 3/4 to the end of the runway, still concerned, I glance over and see the Mixture about 1 1/4 inches out. Promptly, I push it to full and immediately - More Power!

The rest of the flight was great! I typically tend to take a while going over the checklist before the initial flight. So, I found myself rushed to get going before the next ac came in and didn't spend sufficient time on the checklist. It could have turned out worse. Hopefully, I learned even though the instructor made no comments about what I consider an issue.

So, how often do you make little mistakes like this? Do you recognize them quickly and correct, or do you find it takes a while to recognize?

 

[jesse]

It all depends. Some mistakes are bigger than others and carry more of a risk. I try to focus on those things the most. I find that touching everything on the panel that matters before takeoff generally causes me to notice abnormalities.

You make mistakes, you learn from them, and you call that experience. If there is a pilot that doesn't think they make mistakes, that would be a major issue indeed.

The big lesson with this one - when something doesn't seem right and you're still on the ground do not take to the air until you figure it out. Unless you're in some big fancy turboprop/jet that has a V1 speed

 

[tonycondon]

your instructor probably made no comment because he was either asleep or (more likely) he knew that he didnt need to comment. you had taught yourself a valuable lesson that you won't be forgetting anytime soon.

 

[dmccormack]

So, how often do you make little mistakes like this? Do you recognize them quickly and correct, or do you find it takes a while to recognize?

The pilot who hasn't done what you've described doesn't exist.

(Well, I don't have mixture control in my Chief... but I have taken off with carb heat -- same thing)

Anyway -- if you haven't started up and tried to taxi with chocks still in place -- you aren't flying enough.

I grade every flight on a 1 -10 scale. I never reach 10. There's always some thing I could or should have done differently and probably better.

What you have to do is learn from bad mistakes (can kill you or mess up the airplane) and resolve to never do that again.

 

[turand]

"Double check the things that will kill you. Mixture full rich. Gas on."

My original instructor burned that into me everytime I take the runway. And I repeat it, out loud, everytime I roll onto the runway.

Not to say I won't make that mistake, but I am hoping that saying will never leave me. Mistakes will happen, distraction is one of the real killers.

 

[vontresc]

BTDT in my case I damn near killed the engine on the archer, because I had leaned it pretty far back. The nice thing about the throttle quadrant on the archer is that you can grab all levers at once and push them full forward on takeoff.

 

[tonycondon]

one thing that will prevent this situation is to lean much more agressively on the ground. lean so much that you can just barely make runup RPM. then if you try to take off you won't get very far..

 

[dmccormack]

one thing that will prevent this situation is to lean much more agressively on the ground. lean so much that you can just barely make runup RPM. then if you try to take off you won't get very far..

Very good tip that I picked up here a while ago, IIRC....

 

[TMetzinger]

one thing that will prevent this situation is to lean much more agressively on the ground. lean so much that you can just barely make runup RPM. then if you try to take off you won't get very far..

+1.

And as far as mistakes go, the pilot who's never made one has never flown. The point of all our procedures is to trap those errors before they become a chain leading to an accident. You caught and corrected the error.

 

[mantakos]

Everybody makes mistakes.

I find it's helpful to adopt practices that make these mistakes less likely, and that this is more useful than just beating yourself up for making them, and hoping you don't make them again.

So you can't guarantee you'll never take-off without following your checklist. But you can form a habit of leaning on the ground so much that it's impossible to takeoff still lean, because the engine will die. It's possible to form a "habit", a "ritual", of throttling up right to left (mixture, prop, throttle), and touching each of those controls in that order each time. Maybe you get flustered and forget a checklist, but your hand will still touch the controls in that order, because that's what it always does.

You can't guarantee that you'll never forget something when you get yourself in a rush, but you can develop a habit of resisting that rush, of telling your instructor "I'll just let this guy play through". It's not about perfecting the ability to perform under pressure, it's about developing a habit of sensing unnecessary pressure, and finding a way to relieve it.

BTW, if I had to pinpoint one thing that made flight-training dangerous for me it would have to be a tendency to get too passive about letting the CFI call the shots, about adopting the attitude that it's safe because the CFI said it was safe. I discovered that this really needed to change to "it's not safe until _we agree_ it's safe".
-harry

 

[Steve]

I'm fortunate to have my mistakes pointed out to me on a daily basis.

So, how often do you make little mistakes like this? Do you recognize them quickly and correct, or do you find it takes a while to recognize?

 

[tonycondon]

I'm fortunate to have my mistakes pointed out to me on a daily basis.

how many years have you been married?

 

[Dudley Henriques]

I consider myself pretty good at doing things right or making good judgments. But, I also realize that I'm prone to mistakes occasionally. For example, I did a cross country landed, spend about 15 minutes on the ground, then went to depart on the return leg. The engine was difficult to start (more discussion on an upcoming thread). Finally got it started and promptly leaned for ground operation. Taxied out and did a run-up. There was a radio call for another ac coming in to downwind. Instructor said there was plenty of room and we could go.

So, I roll out to the runway and start to apply power, engine hesitates and stumbles, and I was thinking was that because of maybe the hard start prior. I remember thinking should I abort and start over, but I didn't. I advanced the throttle further and the engine smoothed out, so I continued.

It took off ok, but seemed to be climbing just a tad slower than typical, but it was climbing. At about 50 to 100 feet AGL and about 3/4 to the end of the runway, still concerned, I glance over and see the Mixture about 1 1/4 inches out. Promptly, I push it to full and immediately - More Power!

The rest of the flight was great! I typically tend to take a while going over the checklist before the initial flight. So, I found myself rushed to get going before the next ac came in and didn't spend sufficient time on the checklist. It could have turned out worse. Hopefully, I learned even though the instructor made no comments about what I consider an issue.

So, how often do you make little mistakes like this? Do you recognize them quickly and correct, or do you find it takes a while to recognize?

As a flight safety adviser in the display and airshow community, I've been asked this question in different forms at various venues for over 50 years.
My stock answer has always been the same.
There's only one attitude to have when it comes to flying in any form, be that form for pleasure or as a professional aerobatic performer doing aerobatics on unrestricted waivers.

That attitude is that mistakes can happen to any pilot and in fact they do happen to all pilots in all venues of aviation all the time. This doesn't mean you have to default to this fact. What you have to do is lower the odds that it will be YOU that makes the mistake.
Some mistakes as a pilot are small ones that can be survived. Others will kill you in a heartbeat. You should treat ALL potential for mistakes the same way; by the adoption of an attitude toward flying that ALWAYS points you toward a total professional approach to what you are doing with, in, and even around the aircraft.

Perfection as a pilot is a difficult goal to attain. What you have to do is to constantly strive to achieve that perfection. The result of doing this will place you in a much better position to avoid error and mistakes. Keep in mind even by approaching flying in this manner, you can STILL make a serious mistake, but the odds of you making that mistake are now MUCH lower than they are for a pilot not flying with your attitude.

No one can guarantee complete safety in an airplane. The secret to safe flying is to strive to keep your performance at a consistent level that at any moment in time your performance can be defined as being as close to perfection as your attitude, habit patterns, and performance can define you as a pilot.
Dudley Henriques

 

[gismo]

one thing that will prevent this situation is to lean much more agressively on the ground. lean so much that you can just barely make runup RPM. then if you try to take off you won't get very far..

I used to do that until one day when I was told by tower to expedite my runway crossing and killed an engine when I throttled up. Now I just make it a habit to push everything forward when powering up for takeoff. Same habit works well for a go-around or miss when the mixture is left somewhat lean for smoother operation.

 

[tonycondon]

I used to do that until one day when I was told by tower to expedite my runway crossing and killed an engine when I throttled up. Now I just make it a habit to push everything forward when powering up for takeoff. Same habit works well for a go-around or miss when the mixture is left somewhat lean for smoother operation.

yea i do that too

 

[PilotAlan]

I used to do that until one day when I was told by tower to expedite my runway crossing and killed an engine when I throttled up. Now I just make it a habit to push everything forward when powering up for takeoff. Same habit works well for a go-around or miss when the mixture is left somewhat lean for smoother operation.

I did that when I lived at sea level. Do that out here and you'll likely end up in the weeds. Especially on a go-around with full flaps out. You'll probably never get a positive rate of climb.

No rule is 100%. Always know which rules work for you and which ones don't.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

\\ // You have exceeded the vbulletin software word limit! // \\

Rats, I typed out all my mistakes but apparently the forum won't accept such a huge post.

 

[poadeleted20]

Good procedures save you from a lot of "mistakes." That's why the military and airlines are so strong on procedures-oriented flying. Building better procedures based on strong adherence to checklists makes stuff like this a lot less likely.

 

[gismo]

I did that when I lived at sea level. Do that out here and you'll likely end up in the weeds. Especially on a go-around with full flaps out. You'll probably never get a positive rate of climb.

No rule is 100%. Always know which rules work for you and which ones don't.

True, I don't go full rich when the DA is high, but that's pretty rare for me. That said, with both engines running I'm pretty sure my airplane would climb pretty well with full rich mixture on a hot day in Denver.

 

[ron22]

I guess I am the only one here who never makes mistakes

 

[shywon]

I guess I am the only one here who never makes mistakes

I think your mistaken

 

[Everskyward]

I think your mistaken

I'm like Steve. People have no problems letting me know when I've made a mistake, especially in the airplane. Which is the way it should be...

 

[rottydaddy]

I won't say I'm prone to errors or "brain farts", but I'm far from perfect, even when using a written checklist. The goal, IMHO, is not so much perfection as to not make the important mistakes twice.

A few I've done once, and will probably never repeat:
-Started up with one wing tied down (let's go-itis)

-Exited onto a taxiway with an aircraft approaching the hold line on said taxiway (overly-fixated on runway and getting off on first taxiway)

-Pulled the mixture instead of the carb heat abeam the numbers on downwind
(unfamiliar plane; didn't look at my hand)

It's hardly hubris to suggest I won't make these mistakes again...I'm only human, and there are so many other mistakes I can make in the future!

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Let the pilot who has never erred cast the first internet flame!

 

[PittsDriver]

How often do I make mistakes? Every time I go flying. But, I try to keep the ones to a minimum that would put me or my certificate in the hurt locker. Practicing acro and flying contests I'm at least a couple of mistakes high.

 

[Dan Thomas]

your instructor probably made no comment because he was either asleep or (more likely) he knew that he didnt need to comment.

Which wasn't smart. At full throttle and lean enough that RPM is reduced, detonation can set in and the engine could self-destruct in short order. Do that with a more powerful engine and it will certainly take some hours off it, maybe everything that's left before TBO.

And punching the mixture in quickly cools the engine pretty fast and could cause stumbling if the DA was high enough. Slowly is the key, according to Lycoming.

Dan

 

[gprellwitz]

I'm fortunate to have my mistakes pointed out to me on a daily basis.

Me too.

how many years have you been married?

21 years next Thursday!

 

[AuntPeggy]

Me too.

21 years next Thursday!

Happy Anniversary to you and Leslie.

 

[Ted]

Which wasn't smart. At full throttle and lean enough that RPM is reduced, detonation can set in and the engine could self-destruct in short order. Do that with a more powerful engine and it will certainly take some hours off it, maybe everything that's left before TBO.

And punching the mixture in quickly cools the engine pretty fast and could cause stumbling if the DA was high enough. Slowly is the key, according to Lycoming.

Dan

Good to know there's at least one person out there who listens.

Mistakes? Yep, make them. I will agree with Ron that good procedures do help prevent this. Procedures become especially important when something has you at less than 100%, like say you just made a mistake that shook you up. You still need to get the plane back on the ground safely so you can think about it, calm down, and go have a beer.

 

[skidoo]

Great input. Thanks! So, I think I will take the advice where I always touch (and perhaps say) Mix, Prop, Throttle each time I go on the runway. My mistake could have been avoided.

So, now I am a bit concerned relative to Dan's response#26. I mentioned to an A&P friend, what had happened. His first response was what were the temperatures, and that he thought that leaning on the ground was not very good practice because that is just what can happen. The thing is, I just don't know what the temps got to. That is not something I see when taking off. Basically, I'm glancing at the MP and where I am going. Everything else I tend to wait until I've got some altitude. On the G1000, the actual temps are on a different screen and I don't think it would be good practice to be trying to cycle through menus during takeoff or landing. My assumption has been with full rich mixture on takeoff, temps should be fine until I start the lean process with a little bit of altitude. Perhaps that is not a good assumption...

Anyway, after I had put the mixture to full, full power returned and we flew normally for the return hour. A couple days later, before I took it out for another hour, the oil appeared down perhaps a quarter to half quart from where it tended to be for the last 10 hours. I have about 30 hours since the annual and last oil change. Any recommendations to go ahead and change the oil now?

Lessons learned:
1) Touch all three M,P,T on every takeoff/go around. (and use slower action)
2) Abort any takeoff and take the first taxi exit if the engine stumbles on initial roll.
3) Find a best way to monitor temps on takeoff and initial climb.

Any thing else I should add to this lesson?

 

[EppyGA]

Isn't mixture rich in the pre-takeoff/runup checklist?

 

[COFlyBoy]

Isn't mixture rich in the pre-takeoff/runup checklist?

I was wondering the same thing. For me it is in 3 checklists: pre-start, run-up, and pre-takeoff. I lean for takeoff power (I live at 5800 feet) before start and leave it there.

Skidoo, quit leaning for taxi. Unless the airplane has trouble idling (or fouls plugs) at full rich I'd stop doing it. There really isn't a good reason, and you found a good reason not to. Also, go through your checklists and figure out where it got missed.

For full disclosure, I try to make at least one mistake on each flight. So far I am overachieving. My most common mistake is forgetting to set the prop to full on short final, which leads to lugging if I have to go around.

 

[azure]

For full disclosure, I try to make at least one mistake on each flight. So far I am overachieving. My most common mistake is forgetting to set the prop to full on short final, which leads to lugging if I have to go around.

Mine too... though so far I haven't had to do a go-around when I've forgotten. I try to do my last GUMPS check descending on downwind if in the pattern, after reducing the power, so that the prop won't race when set to full. Otherwise, use the prop vernier to push it in slowly. On a straight-in or instrument approach, drop the gear at FAF and do the first GUMPS. I'm still not sure when the best time is to go full prop, whether at the FAF, or after breaking out or at DA?? In any case, I need to drill that last pre-landing GUMPS check into my brain...

On leaning to taxi: the only safe way is to lean brutally, in other words to taxi so lean that applying full power will cause the engine to stumble. That's the way I was taught, and it definitely works.

 

[skidoo]

Isn't mixture rich in the pre-takeoff/runup checklist?

It sure is! And, if I had followed it, there would have been no mistake. I had allowed myself to become distracted by traffic in the pattern and the instructor suggesting to get going. I have been taking a lot of time going through the checklists. This time, after the run up, I had glanced at the takeoff portion and put it away. I had not made it a habit to go to M,P,T but now I will. Previously, I would go through the checklist, set it down, and then only push the throttle. I think making a habit to do the three is better in addition to the checklist. I also had not recognized the cause of the stumble on initial roll out. Now, I will be more aware of such.

 

[Ted]

For full disclosure, I try to make at least one mistake on each flight. So far I am overachieving. My most common mistake is forgetting to set the prop to full on short final, which leads to lugging if I have to go around.

This is only a problem if your cruise/descent RPM that you were at and the manifold pressure you'd be at at full throttle is placarded or otherwise prohibited as an area of operation to avoid. For example, on my Aztec you're not supposed to operate more than 26" below 2200 RPM. This has to do with torsional vibrations with that propeller/engine combination. At 5800 MSL, I doubt that you'd have much to worry about unless you're flying something high-powered and turbocharged. If anything, you might have to worry about being at too high an RPM and too low a manifold pressure. The Mooney I flew had a placard about that. Once again, vibrations.

Of course, the lack of full power could be an issue, but I'm assuming you're not going to hit a tree.

 

[gemohler]

your instructor probably made no comment because he was either asleep or (more likely) he knew that he didnt need to comment. you had taught yourself a valuable lesson that you won't be forgetting anytime soon.

I found that the ones I was -allowed- to make that were really important..and then find on my own (with his hands and mind ready for if I didnt)...are MUCH more firmly seated in my mind than other mistakes corrected for me.

 

[Ghery]

Ever wondered how well a C-172N (180 hp Pen Yann conversion) climbs with 30 degrees of flaps hanging out on take-off? I don't anymore. And, yes, the checklist did say to raise them earlier in the process. BTW, it does take off and climb, just not very fast.

 

[dmccormack]

Ever wondered how well a C-172N (180 hp Pen Yann conversion) climbs with 30 degrees of flaps hanging out on take-off? I don't anymore. And, yes, the checklist did say to raise them earlier in the process. BTW, it does take off and climb, just not very fast.

Probably a bit better than a 145 hp C172F with 40 degrees of flaps hanging out.

 

[COFlyBoy]

This is only a problem if your cruise/descent RPM that you were at and the manifold pressure you'd be at at full throttle is placarded or otherwise prohibited as an area of operation to avoid. For example, on my Aztec you're not supposed to operate more than 26" below 2200 RPM. This has to do with torsional vibrations with that propeller/engine combination. At 5800 MSL, I doubt that you'd have much to worry about unless you're flying something high-powered and turbocharged. If anything, you might have to worry about being at too high an RPM and too low a manifold pressure. The Mooney I flew had a placard about that. Once again, vibrations.

Of course, the lack of full power could be an issue, but I'm assuming you're not going to hit a tree.

Yeah, up in the rarified air near the runway in Colorado, I can't get enough MP at 2300 RPM to have a problem. The issue is just not getting full power. No placards for power settings.

 

[Ted]

Yeah, up in the rarified air near the runway in Colorado, I can't get enough MP at 2300 RPM to have a problem. The issue is just not getting full power. No placards for power settings.

Lack of full power makes sense. Y'all have no shortage of trees and mountains.

Typically, I put the prop full forward when I've pulled the manifold pressure back enough that it comes off the governor. It's another smoothness thing, that way you don't get the jump in RPM and the big speed brake.