How not to afford personal flying

Bill Watson

Bill Watson

En-Route
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
2,703
Location
Durham NC
Display Name
MauleDriver
Home Airfield
Lake Ridge Aero Park
"So he cut out the things he didn’t need — like the $1,000 a month he was spending on flying lessons and flight time"

Boooo!
NYTimes Supersavers
 
His girlfriend is going to blow most of it on her wedding. Anything left will chewed up by the baby accessories.
 
Eff that..... I'm gonna blow it all now when I still have a medical and **** to do. I don't subcribe to the save it all for retirement nonsense. Money ain't no good for fun when all you do is go to golden coral daily at 430 and get in bed by 7.
 
Unit74 said:
Eff that..... I'm gonna blow it all now when I still have a medical and **** to do. I don't subcribe to the save it all for retirement nonsense. Money ain't no good for fun when all you do is go to golden coral daily at 430 and get in bed by 7.
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I'm leaning more and more toward the saver. Plus if I save that kind of money I can finally afford to own and operate a king air. I figure 500k purchase and 500k for operating should keep me going for a few years. I would say that guy went to the extreme, but I think he enjoyed the process of saving so I say more power to him.

I'm not a big fan of debt and do want to pay off my house before I get a plane. Then I can live the dream!
 
Somedudeintn said:
I'm leaning more and more toward the saver. Plus if I save that kind of money I can finally afford to own and operate a king air. I figure 500k purchase and 500k for operating should keep me going for a few years. I would say that guy went to the extreme, but I think he enjoyed the process of saving so I say more power to him.

I'm not a big fan of debt and do want to pay off my house before I get a plane. Then I can live the dream!
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I understand the aversion to debt, but I think that you may be making a mistake. There is a balance. I purchased all of my toys with some debt. Usually 50% down. I own them all now and had a lot of fun and use while paying them off. If you waited until you could pay cash for your house you would be waiting a long time. There are a lot of fun planes out there going for very little. Life is short.
 
Who's to say he's going to make it to retirement? There are no guarantees. :nonod:

His yearly trip is probably $10-15K. He could skip one year, buy a plane, get his PPL, upgrade to a Mooney or Bo, cut his travel time and expenses for probably 80% of his traveling and still enjoy retirement.
 
What a presumptuous article. It presumes to assert the pursuit of discretionary expenses in old age at the expense of self-castigation and avocational deprivation in youth is somehow morally superior. Furthermore, it trivializes the non-economic elements behind the process of raising children. By this craptastic logic, if I didn't have my family "weighting me down", I'd be halfway to a multi-million dollar retirement bank before 40 at my current income. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

What the supersavers seem to forget is that there is a real time-sensitive nature to these opportunity costs. Medical fitness is NOT a guarantee in life, therefore it would be foolish to forego the ability to pursue certain habits and discretionary choices in young age just to subscribe to the supposed sanctioned formula for having bank in your infirmity.

Ultimately, I'm not going to take savings advice from people whose planning solvency is principally hinged on the conscious choice to avoid children. GTFO town with that doublespeak.

The reason why people are behind, is because you cannot do what you could before, that is, replace 80% of your living wage income with the proceeds of your own labor. That's a fundamental shift in the American Labor Landscape, circa 1970. But the human dynamics behind our lives have not and will not change. We still have youthful aspirations, discretionary desires, hopes for our children along with the material expenditures that come along with caring for outright dependents. All of these things can be individually debated and metered for levels of "moderation", but to hinge one's solvency on outright shaming of the pursuit of living while young and healthy, that's just fundamentally disingenuous. Society won't follow it there and you'll just have to accept your indignation over more and more dispossessed masses who will categorically NOT regret their "youthful excess" in their death bed.
 
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The New York Times is the last place to learn about anything real or practical about life.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I understand the aversion to debt, but I think that you may be making a mistake. There is a balance. I purchased all of my toys with some debt. Usually 50% down. I own them all now and had a lot of fun and use while paying them off. If you waited until you could pay cash for your house you would be waiting a long time. There are a lot of fun planes out there going for very little. Life is short.
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I understand your argument as well, but for me I'm still in my 20's and am having fun renting airplanes for now. I would rather have more money for flying in 5-10 years when I would want to use the plane for family travel. I can pay off my house without too much difficulty before I'm 40 and then have the rest of my life (which I don't know how long it will be, I get your point) with a little extra cash flow.

I'm not saying there is a right way or a wrong way and I certainly think there is a balance. For now that balance puts me at renting a plane for about 40 hours a year, but paying off debts early in life (while also saving for retirement and kids college). That balance could have me buying a 150,172, m20 or straight tail bonanza and I could easily put 20% down, but I'm also aware of the elevated cost risk that owning an airplane entails. Right now I'm focusing on paying off the mortgage so I can buy the plane without feeling guilty. Again, a personal choice.
 
So someone that makes $75k a year "saves" his way to $1.2 million in 5 years?

B.S. :rolleyes2:

The key was the mention of a "brokerage account." A better headline would be "guy places big bets in the stock market and had some good wins."

Saving is important, but this article is silly.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
So someone that makes $75k a year "saves" his way to $1.2 million in 5 years?

B.S. :rolleyes2:

The key was the mention of a "brokerage account." A better headline would be "guy places big bets in the stock market and had some good wins."

Saving is important, but this article is silly.
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This is entirely possible. The article didn't say he started with no money. He could have been half way there in his 401k if he was already investing aggressively and he started at 21. Maybe he just decided to accelerate the growth by being more aggressive when he committed to saving a larger portion of his salary. :dunno:
 
LandSickness said:
His yearly trip is probably $10-15K. He could skip one year, buy a plane, get his PPL, upgrade to a Mooney or Bo, cut his travel time and expenses for probably 80% of his traveling and still enjoy retirement.
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I think he'll need to skip more than one year to get his PPL, and buy a Mooney or Bo. Besides, the vacations he enjoys would be pretty difficult in a Mooney or Bo.

Mr. Reining and his girlfriend go on an overseas vacation each year, last year to England and Italy, the year before to Argentina. They are planning a safari in Tanzania in January.
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Nothing wrong with stopping flying lessons if you enjoy other things more.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
So someone that makes $75k a year "saves" his way to $1.2 million in 5 years?

B.S. :rolleyes2:

The key was the mention of a "brokerage account." A better headline would be "guy places big bets in the stock market and had some good wins."

Saving is important, but this article is silly.
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Yup, saving is only a means to acquiring capital to invest and it's not always the best way or even the only way. Go big or go home.
 
Somedudeintn said:
I understand your argument as well, but for me I'm still in my 20's and am having fun renting airplanes for now. I would rather have more money for flying in 5-10 years when I would want to use the plane for family travel. I can pay off my house without too much difficulty before I'm 40 and then have the rest of my life (which I don't know how long it will be, I get your point) with a little extra cash flow.

I'm not saying there is a right way or a wrong way and I certainly think there is a balance. For now that balance puts me at renting a plane for about 40 hours a year, but paying off debts early in life (while also saving for retirement and kids college). That balance could have me buying a 150,172, m20 or straight tail bonanza and I could easily put 20% down, but I'm also aware of the elevated cost risk that owning an airplane entails. Right now I'm focusing on paying off the mortgage so I can buy the plane without feeling guilty. Again, a personal choice.
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Sounds like a great plan to me.
 
Own your airplane, rent your house.

With rental airplanes there are other renters, maintenance "methodologies", scheduling constraints, etc.

With rental homes you have sole use, can control maintenance, etc. Sure you can't move a wall, but squawks are addressed.

The one thing the planes and houses have in common: They are worth more to YOU than every buyer.
 
Everskyward said:
I think he'll need to skip more than one year to get his PPL, and buy a Mooney or Bo. Besides, the vacations he enjoys would be pretty difficult in a Mooney or Bo.
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I was thinking the $10-15k could cover his ticket and he could partner in a Bo or Mooney. If he's been bitten by the bug, he'll make it work.
 
Saving for retirement is one thing. Being so frugal in the process that you miss out on life's experiences at a younger age is foolish. I know people who saved all their lives to live well in retirement only to die of cancer just after they retired.

I'd rather have 100K at 40 and live life while I'm healthy than 1 million at 60 and start to develope medical problems.
 
A friend and I were chatting about this the other day (both pilots who fly twins).

We agreed we'd both have a bunch more money if we'd not become pilots.

We also agreed we didn't care.

Besides, that $1.2M number is completely based on the rise of the stock market after the crash. Sure, anyone who was smart enough to buy Ford at $1/share made out like a bandit.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
A friend and I were chatting about this the other day (both pilots who fly twins).

We agreed we'd both have a bunch more money if we'd not become pilots.

We also agreed we didn't care.

Besides, that $1.2M number is completely based on the rise of the stock market after the crash. Sure, anyone who was smart enough to buy Ford at $1/share made out like a bandit.
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You likely wouldn't have more money, you'd have a boat.:D Or another house.
 
It doesn't seem as if he is missing out on life's discretionary experiences or being "too frugal" if he is doing this.

Mr. Reining and his girlfriend go on an overseas vacation each year, last year to England and Italy, the year before to Argentina. They are planning a safari in Tanzania in January.
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We need to accept that people may want to do other things with their discretionary dollars than learn to fly.

I realize the article is stupid, but this is something I think about because people often ask me if I'm going to buy an airplane after I stop flying professionally. My answer at this time is no, because I want to use the "extra" money I have for international travel, not for supporting an airplane. My test is going to be next year when I have a big international vacation booked. I'll see if this kind of travel is what I want to do in the future.
 
rolivi said:
Own your airplane, rent your house.

With rental airplanes there are other renters, maintenance "methodologies", scheduling constraints, etc.

With rental homes you have sole use, can control maintenance, etc. Sure you can't move a wall, but squawks are addressed.

The one thing the planes and houses have in common: They are worth more to YOU than every buyer.
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That can be good advice depending on rental market and your job mobility. Plus not many in the house as an investment game are putting appropriate amounts into a roof TBO fund, Septic system TBO fund, fill in your own house nightmare fund...
 
Velocity173 said:
Saving for retirement is one thing. Being so frugal in the process that you miss out on life's experiences at a younger age is foolish. I know people who saved all their lives to live well in retirement only to die of cancer just after they retired.

I'd rather have 100K at 40 and live life while I'm healthy than 1 million at 60 and start to develope medical problems.
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Exactly. It is like the folks that are complete health and fitness nuts that end up dying at 45 or 50 from a heart attack.

I think enjoying life while living within your means is much more fulfilling.

It also brings up another good point - the survival rate of people who work hard and then completely retire at an early age is not all that good.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
So someone that makes $75k a year "saves" his way to $1.2 million in 5 years?
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Even if he saved 100% of that, if he did not start with anything he would have to have had a 40% return to make 1.2mil. Hardly a rate of return that people can expect from the stock market.
 
a better savings would be to move out of new york. Then he could afford to fly as much as he wants.

when you have an airplane you don't have to live in a place like that to enjoy it. If the girls want to go shopping there or take in a show, we fly there for the weekend. Then we get the heck out.
 
Phoenix said:
You likely wouldn't have more money, you'd have a boat.:D Or another house.
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That's always a question. I think probably not, though. We do have a boat (it's old) and I wouldn't buy new cars even without a plane. And if we had another house, how would we get there without a plane?!
 
Everskyward said:
Isn't his job in New York?
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Yes. As a survivor of NYC (20 hellish years there), people either love it and can't live anywhere else or they absolutely hate it and can't get out fast enough. If he's in the former category, he just won't leave. That's his choice.
 
He's 35, has 1.2 mil, goes overseas once a year to stay in budget hotels and walk around museums with his girlfriend and still doesn't have his pilot's license.

What a loser :rolleyes:
 
So he suffers and can't enjoy life now and then will enjoy it later by being frugal then too? Why not enjoy life... you may not live through tomorrow !
 
dell30rb said:
He can find another one in the IT industry.
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But he probably doesn't want to, which is the point. The true New Yorker doesn't believe the rest of the world exists, other than for vacation purposes. New York is the center of the universe.
 
Somedudeintn said:
Even if he saved 100% of that, if he did not start with anything he would have to have had a 40% return to make 1.2mil. Hardly a rate of return that people can expect from the stock market.
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That was my point. The numbers in the article didn't add up. Either someone gave him a bunch of money to get started (good for him but that's not really saving) or he earned an abnormally high rate of return on some lucky investments (also happens but is rarely if ever sustainable).

The article reads like "he's really frugal and saved $1.2 million in 5 years earning $75k"... there's a lot not being said. Regardless good for him, it's a nice number at that age regardless of how he got there.
 
See by previous post about the NYT being the last place to learn anything practical or even realistic.
 
How do you even live in NYC for 75K a year? Hobby job, and hobby savings to leave the trust fund for the bigger things...
 
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