How long for tailwheel endorsement?

FlyGirlKHWO

FlyGirlKHWO

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FlyGirl
I'm a 200-hour, tri-gear PPL...

Now considering buying a tailwheel a/c, but still unsure about the amount of time a tailwheel endorsement REALLY takes. I see a flat rate course,(one for $675 in my home state) and others that get $189/hr for Champ and instruction. They say 8 hours minimum.

I need to budget this baby.

How long did it take you to get signed off?

Thanks!

Allison
 
I got signed off in 1.2 in a Citabria, but it's irrelevant. If you buy a Tailwheel airplane, the insurance is going to stipulate 10-25 hrs of dual. Use that time for your endorsement, there is no sense renting a plane to get it if you are going to buy one, unless you're looking at a single seater, then you figure you'll need 10-20 with an Ag pilot CFI who can teach you to check yourself out.
 
I got mine in about three hours but I then went to another instructor and actually got good training. With the second cfi I spent about 15 hours but for me the training was much more than taking off and landing a tail wheel aircraft. We spent a lot of time doing lazy eights, pylon turns, chandelles, falling leaf, etc. I learned to fly a rudder airplane the way it should be flown. Budget or not getting good training, not the sign off is the important thing.
 
It should take as much time as needed to make you safe to fly solo. So that depends on you and the instructor you choose. You will find that most of the places that advertise a cheap or low hour course won't let you solo their airplane after they issue you your endorsement. And Henning is right about the insurance company will want at least 10 hours of dual in anything that you buy. Remember the cheapest things are not necessarily the least expensive in the long run. 10 hours seems to be average for a good check out. Don
 
Henning said:
I got signed off in 1.2 in a Citabria, but it's irrelevant.
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I think it's relevant to point out that 1.2 hours in a Citabria (world's easiest tailwheel airplane) for 99% of transitioning pilots will not leave them with anything close to minimally acceptable competence. As suggested, it takes what it takes. 3-10 hours, 6-8 probably being the average. Insurance time only matters if you are trying to rent solo the airplane you are transitioning in. If a different type, you will need extra insurance hours for time in type anyway.
 
Consider that perhaps more than any other endorsement, it is just a ticket to learn. If you will be flying a specific TW aircraft after that, get your training in it. If it's just to get the endorsement, and not use it regularly or for awhile, keep your costs down because no one's going to let you fly anything with out more time.

Have fun!
 
I think 10 hours is about right -- but then there may be a high premium on the insurance for another 20 hours.

I've noticed reluctance to fully train by the CFIs who own their own plane. First, they seem to give almost all of the training on grass (at least the landings), and they avoid giving crosswind training -- they simple will not fly if there is much of a cross wind (and I'm talking about 3 mph to 5 mph as the maximum). And none of the three instructors, in three different planes, would do training for wheel landings.
 
It can be done in 6-8 hours, but as others have said, that is a license to learn. I've flown with a couple of endorsed pilots who I would not have let use my aircraft.
 
Last summer I got my tailwheel endorsement in 6 hours flight time plus about 6 hours of ground instruction at 5G Aviation down at John Wayne airport in Orange County (KSNA). However, It took me about 20 additional hours of dual in varied landing conditions (bumps, crosswinds, etc.) before I really felt comfortable that I could land the airplane safely and consistently. YMMV.
 
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colojo said:
Last summer I got my tailwheel endorsement in 6 hours flight time plus about 6 hours of ground instruction at 5G Aviation down at John Wayne airport in Orange County (KSNA). However, It took me about 20 additional hours of dual in varied landing conditions (bumps, crosswinds, etc.) before I really felt comfortable that I could land the airplane safely and consistently. YMMV.
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6 hours of ground? Really? I question the value of that given that tailwheel flying is a motor skill more than anything else. Kind of like riding a bicycle. You don't learn to ride a bike in a classroom.

To the OP - 5-10 hours is typical. Once you're signed off, you'll still need to choose your days wisely for a while and expand your personal envelope.
 
I got my tailwheel in I think 9 or 10 hours. Like you I had about 200 hours at that point. Tailwheel finally "clicked" at around 50 hours, where I felt better in crosswinds. Halfway through my endorsement, I regressed a bit for some reason, which added a couple extra hours. One day was extremely windy with wind shear, which was an amazing learning experience and a huge confidence builder. It really taught me how to fly the airplane all the way through the landing, as wind direction and intensity was changing throughout the landing.

I took my lessons with Damian at Andover Flight in NJ. He is a great instructor, and everyone I know that's been there was happy they made the trip. I was lucky enough to live nearby. He is a nice guy, a great instructor, and doesn't make you feel like an idiot if you repeat a mistake.

Another really good instructor is Ed at Sterling in MA. Another really good, down to earth stick and rudder pilot. I'd put him at a very close second to Damian.
 
kyleb said:
6 hours of ground? Really? I question the value of that given that tailwheel flying is a motor skill more than anything else. Kind of like riding a bicycle. You don't learn to ride a bike in a classroom.

To the OP - 5-10 hours is typical. Once you're signed off, you'll still need to choose your days wisely for a while and expand your personal envelope.
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I beg to differ, it may not be 6 hrs worth of ground, but there is more than just motor skill. What there is to learn is about the dynamics of the stability of the design along with other dynamic factors that can benefit or exasperate the situation that are available. That way when things start going wrong, you know to recognize it, and you know what is causing it and how to counter it.

All motor skills are thought driven.
 
I took 16 hours in the Luscombe with a very good instructor that insisted we practice on the asphalt runway instead of the grass right next to it and who did not shy away from crosswinds. I was also a very rusty pilot, having gotten my PPL in 1976 and then quit flying for 34 years. I had some additional recent hours but mostly working on my IR and not my stick and rudder. I also tried to work at it too long each day and got into a diminishing returns sort of thing.

So it depends on your present stick and rudder skill level and what skill level your CFI holds you to in order to sign you off.
 
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kyleb said:
6 hours of ground? Really? I question the value of that given that tailwheel flying is a motor skill more than anything else. Kind of like riding a bicycle. You don't learn to ride a bike in a classroom.
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Sorry, I had "6" on the brain... the ground portion was more like 2 hours.
 
alfadog said:
So it depends on your present stick and rudder skill level and what skill level you CFI holds you to in order to sign you off.
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It also depends on the plane and what your CFI considers an endorsement.

I've seen endorsements using a Citabria where there was a single wheel landing to meet the min requirements and students were prohibited from solo wheel landings. I've seen pre-priced courses involving 2 hours in a T-6 for all 3 endorsements. Finally, I got my endorsement in a 140 doing 3-point and wheel landings in normal and crosswind conditions. 15.x hours for that, but probably half of that was just me and my instructor meshing and not recognizing the right questions to ask.

I feel a lot more confident now in any plane than the guys who did the quickie courses.
 
kyleb said:
6 hours of ground? Really? I question the value of that given that tailwheel flying is a motor skill more than anything else. Kind of like riding a bicycle. You don't learn to ride a bike in a classroom.

To the OP - 5-10 hours is typical. Once you're signed off, you'll still need to choose your days wisely for a while and expand your personal envelope.
Click to expand...
Yes, 2 hours is more like it. Some serious book work with the right book can cover a lot too. What you do afterwards is the key to surviving prang-free.
Henning said:
I beg to differ, it may not be 6 hrs worth of ground, but there is more than just motor skill. What there is to learn is about the dynamics of the stability of the design along with other dynamic factors that can benefit or exasperate the situation that are available. That way when things start going wrong, you know to recognize it, and you know what is causing it and you how to counter it.

All motor skills are thought driven.
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My experience is that once I understood the ground stability challenge of TW aircraft, I'll never forget it. Much of it was understood fooling around with models. In the air, TW aircraft tend to require more rudder to coordinate - got that logic from gliders.

The difference with the motor skill part is that while part of it works like riding a bike - once learned you'll never forget. The more important part of it is perishable. Do it daily, you won't even have to think about it to do it well. Weekly it requires focus if the winds are tricky. Monthly, you'll need to warm-up to do the trickier stuff, etc.

It's been a real eye opener for me to realize that skills built in the Maule, e.g. accurate ground attitude awareness, 1 wheel straight ahead touchdowns in tough xwinds, have slowly eroded since hour 1 in the easy to fly RV10. The first 1 or 2 years all the landings were greasers. Now, it's a percentage game and I'm not sure I'll get it all back no matter how much I fly this much more forgiving plane. It's a good thing but...
 
Figure it like this.

How long did it take for you to solo, figure about the same to get your endorsment.

Also quite a few places will burn through X hours and sign your log, however wouldn't let you take their plane solo, that's telling you something.

Having the hours you do is going to hurt ya little, fresher folks take to it a little faster in my experience.

Good luck and have fun!
 
I got checked out in T/W aircraft in the late 1980s, before an endorsement was required. I started my T/W adventure in a Citabria. My check-out in that plane was VERY brief since the owner only had a few hours of T/W time himself. I flew the 7KCAB for a couple of years and loved both the T/W operations and the aerobatics. Then I bought a share in a Pitts S2A. I had to start my training all over again. That was a challenging aircraft to fly because it sank like a stone when power was cut, and there was no forward visibility in the landing configuration. The short coupled design that makes a Pitts so great for aerobatics also makes it a bear to land. It is just VERY sensitive. When I sold the Pitts, I stopped flying T/W aircraft for about 20 years.

When I bought a Maule last year, I spent another 10 hours getting to know its idiosyncrasies and how to land the plane on the back side of the lift/drag curve for very short field operations. It was time well spent, even though the insurance company only required a simple checkout in the plane since I had over 200 hours of T/W time.

If you are considering a Moni aircraft, they also appear to be very short coupled. That may be as much of a challenge to get comfortable with as the T/W. At least you won't have problems with forward visibility. The Sonex also sits VERY low to the ground, so your sight picture on landing will be considerably different than what you are used to. That will also require some transition training. So, it isn't just the T/W endorsement you should be paying attention to, but the whole transition to the plane. Have you flown one yet? If not, a trip to the factory to try one on before a purchase would be money well spent. No matter how much the lines of a plane appeal to you, if you aren't comfortable with its flying characteristics, you'll never be a great pilot in the plane.
 
Yes, I agree. I have already looked into visiting the factory, they have a pretty good "try-it-out" program with some ground instruction and dual. I want to do it right, if I do it. Right now, there's a question of cart and horse.

Either I get some tailwheel training first, and then have a better idea of how to fly it once I'm there... or wing it while I'm there, and then get the training. It would be perfect to get my endorsement in one, but unfortunately, I don't know anyone who offers it in a Sonex!


If you are considering a Moni aircraft, they also appear to be very short coupled. That may be as much of a challenge to get comfortable with as the T/W. At least you won't have problems with forward visibility. The Sonex also sits VERY low to the ground, so your sight picture on landing will be considerably different than what you are used to. That will also require some transition training. So, it isn't just the T/W endorsement you should be paying attention to, but the whole transition to the plane. Have you flown one yet? If not, a trip to the factory to try one on before a purchase would be money well spent. No matter how much the lines of a plane appeal to you, if you aren't comfortable with its flying characteristics, you'll never be a great pilot in the plane.[/QUOTE]
 
FlyGirlKHWO said:
Yes, I agree. I have already looked into visiting the factory, they have a pretty good "try-it-out" program with some ground instruction and dual. I want to do it right, if I do it. Right now, there's a question of cart and horse.

Either I get some tailwheel training first, and then have a better idea of how to fly it once I'm there... or wing it while I'm there, and then get the training. It would be perfect to get my endorsement in one, but unfortunately, I don't know anyone who offers it in a Sonex!


If you are considering a Moni aircraft, they also appear to be very short coupled. That may be as much of a challenge to get comfortable with as the T/W. At least you won't have problems with forward visibility. The Sonex also sits VERY low to the ground, so your sight picture on landing will be considerably different than what you are used to. That will also require some transition training. So, it isn't just the T/W endorsement you should be paying attention to, but the whole transition to the plane. Have you flown one yet? If not, a trip to the factory to try one on before a purchase would be money well spent. No matter how much the lines of a plane appeal to you, if you aren't comfortable with its flying characteristics, you'll never be a great pilot in the plane.
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Have you asked the Sonex people if they're doing them there in theirs?
 
colojo said:
Last summer I got my tailwheel endorsement in 6 hours flight time plus about 6 hours of ground instruction at 5G Aviation down at John Wayne airport in Orange County (KSNA). However, It took me about 20 additional hours of dual in varied landing conditions (bumps, crosswinds, etc.) before I really felt comfortable that I could land the airplane safely and consistently. YMMV.
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Out of curiosity, after earning your endorsement from 5G Aviation, can you rent their planes for solo flights?
 
Whatever you do, make sure you get some crosswind landing experience and some taxiing in the wind as well as tying the airplane down in the wind.

Blowing a landing in the wind is where the ground loops happen. Dont let it happen to you!
 
I taught a "Tailwheel Transition Course" to numerous pilots in two Citabrias over the years.

It was a 5 hour syllabus, and was enough for the majority of pilots.
 
I've owned a Citabria, a Luscombe, 2 Taylorcrafts, a Stearman , and a 195 and have flown a lot of other taildraggers including a 180 Cessna. With the exception of the 180 and the 195, they all fly and respond pretty much the same. Getting signed off and being really competent in one are two very different things. I think it takes quite some time to really be good in a direct cross wind, short field operation, both 3 point and wheel landings and if you find it difficult to land on hard surface, your not there yet. The Citabria is no easier or harder than the others ( if your on top of it) a cub ( j3 ) to me, is really boring and highly overpriced. A super cub is a lot of fun but also highly overpriced. A Luscombe F model in good condition is a great little airplane and performs well.
 
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I started out in 1969 in a J3 Cub so I never got an endorsement but in my opinion it's really blown way out of proportion. Sure there are some aspects you gotta learn and no, you're not gonna be an expert after five or six hours but you'll be good enough to get by on your own. No different than when you did your first solo, at which point you'd hardly have been considered an expert either.

I just think people these days make way too big a deal out of it.
 
You don't think it's a big deal because you've never flown one enough to get yourself in a jam such as landing in a stiff cross wind, etc. ignorance is bliss. Fly a taildragger for about three hundred hours in various conditions , you will change your tune.
 
I went from a very rusty to tailwheel endorsed in about 4 hours. Had to get to 10 of dual before I could rent solo. But the school where I rent only trains in tailwheels and gliders. I've only got about 30 hours now, and scared myself enough times. As others have said, when you get the endorsement, it is only the beginning. I hope to be really proficient someday and always make pretty landings.
 
FastEddieB said:
I taught a "Tailwheel Transition Course" to numerous pilots in two Citabrias over the years.

It was a 5 hour syllabus, and was enough for the majority of pilots.
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Sure, but a Citabria is a pretty forgiving plane to learn in.

Silvaire said:
I started out in 1969 in a J3 Cub so I never got an endorsement but in my opinion it's really blown way out of proportion.
I just think people these days make way too big a deal out of it.
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What I found when I got my TW endorsement is that there are only 2 things you have to learn before successfully flying taildraggers:

1) The unnatural act that is shoving the nose toward the runway on takeoff and wheel landings.
2) They fly the same way as trikes do, but are much more sensitive to landing errors and will expose flaws in your landing technique that nosedraggers tend to cover up.
 
Here's three taildraggers parked at the "Plantation" Army airfield in Long Binh, Republic of Viet Nam......1967 :)
 

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warthog1984 said:
What I found when I got my TW endorsement is that there are only 2 things you have to learn before successfully flying taildraggers:

1) The unnatural act that is shoving the nose toward the runway on takeoff and wheel landings.
2) They fly the same way as trikes do, but are much more sensitive to landing errors and will expose flaws in your landing technique that nosedraggers tend to cover up.
Click to expand...

Jimmy cooper said:
Fly a taildragger for about three hundred hours in various conditions , you will change your tune.
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3) Takeoffs are relatively easy until you take them for granted one too many times.
4)
5)

TW pilots do it better

Some may make too big a deal out of it but nothing beats having the tower compliment you on a tough xwind landing and then being told a Malibu ground looped earlier in the day.... :yes:
 
Guess I should add my 2¢ to the how long question.

2 sessions, 6.2 hours, 39 landings and a few gallons of sweat, working on a few nosegear bad habits I acquired though the years.
 
The evolution of airports as tailwheels disappear....

Hollywood FL then
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Hollywood FL now
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Miami FL now (or Ft Lauderdale, or Opa Locka)
01760.jpg
 
I think there's a shorter answer - the time you require will be based on three things:

1. Your insurance requirements (mine did require 10 dual)
2. Your currency in other aircraft
3. your general aptitude with the rudder and your hand foot coordination related to it

I could 'fly' a taildragger in 2-3 hours and get on and off the ground. But the definition of 'flying' a taildragger widely varies between people - don't go trying to slam it into a short 600ft strip with a ton of braking required in less than 20-30 hours. Don't start trying gravelbar landings or fancy hardcore private strips with less than 40-50 hours. It's all 'relative' - if you just want to be able to take a simple taildragger off pavement on a calm day, you'll probably plan 3-5 hours until you have the minimum skillset/comfort required.

OWNING a taildragger (and fly it alot) will make you a real competent pilot. RENTING a taildragger (and if you don't' fly it a lot) could be a tad risky, so fly the pats off it to make sure you're on top of your game!

That's my two cents.
~Brendan
 
warthog1984 said:
Sure, but a Citabria is a pretty forgiving plane to learn in.
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Yep.

But the question was how long for the endorsement.

Of course it will take longer if the plane chosen is difficult to land.

Most of my tailwheel time was in Cubs, Citabrias and cropdusters. All felt pretty similar to me.

Later I was hired to ferry an Experimental biplane, and it was much, much harder to land well.
 
I was told it would take about ten. It took about ten.

Rich

(Piper Pacer)
 
The endorsement takes whatever the CFI feels it takes for him/her to be comfortable risking their ticket by releasing you on the unsuspecting world... ;^)

I expected 5-10 hrs of dual.

My endorsement took 3 hops totalling 2.2 hrs in a Citabria but I had 12-ish hours in an Extra 300L prior to that with a bunch of wheel landings. But, I have also been fortunate to fly roughly 40 different makes/models over the years which I think goes a long ways towards developing a good sense of what any airplane is telling you.

I am now approaching 40-ish TW, over 400 TT and am gradually getting more comfortable, requesting overheads to short approaches, seeking out crosswinds - mixing up wheelies and 3-pointers and so on.

Definitely a license to learn and very rewarding.

'Gimp
 
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