How long can I expect hp/complex/transition training to take?

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drotto

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drotto
I just got my PPL about 3 weeks, and I have started my combined complex, hp, and transition training in a Saratoga SP. I did my primary training in a Warrior and got my PPL at about 68 hours. I currently have 3.8 hours of dual logged in the Saratoga.

Today, I did pattern work. I have a very good handle now on setting up for take-off, cruise, pattern, and GUMPS. I am having a little trouble getting the new sight window down, and the timing on the flair. I did 5 landings today, and each successive got much better. My last was unassisted and ok not great. I am also having some issues with now doing power on landings, and the degree (and aggressiveness) of power adjustments needed. Man that thing drops like a rock when you cut power.

Just trying to get a general idea how long this type of combined training usually takes.
 
If you insured with Avemco they'd want to see at least ten hours dual, which I'd consider about the minimum for such a step-up.
 
Time to learn a new term: Flat plate drag. Get out your copy of the Airplane Flying Handbook and look at figure 12-3. Note that propeller drag increases dramatically at low blade angles. Your fixed-pitch training betrays you here because in the Warrior you had no control over blade angle...now you do. When you push the prop control full forward (as recommended by some....but not by me) and pull the throttle down past about 11 inches, the blade angle is no longer controlled by the governor and is as flat as it can get. It becomes, in effect, a flat plate bolted to the end of the crankshaft with a diameter equal to that of the propeller disk. Now you are trying to push the airplane through that immense drag with rapidly reducing kinetic energy. You need more energy from somewhere...how about burning some fuel?

Another thing to consider is the disturbed air behind that flat plate burbling (not flowing) over the horizontal stabilizer...eats into elevator power, doesn't it?

What to do, what to do?

Never pull the throttle back to idle...keep 11-12 inches so that the prop is pulling the airplane instead of the airplane pushing the prop...or at least idling without pushing or pulling. You will feel it in the seat of your pants.

Note: Flat plate drag is a useful tool for losing a lot of altitude in a hurry without extending flaps or gear...but use it only when on final when the engine has had a chance to cool down from cruise, and don't use it all the way to the runway unless you want to drive the gear up through the wings; you should be back to 11" or so on short final.

Many, if not most, instructors counsel pilots to push the prop control full forward as a part of the pre-landing checklist. The rationale is that if you have to go around you need it there for full power. My response is that 99% percent of the time you know darn well that you aren't going to go around and you can leave the prop control right where it was when you began your descent. If there is a cow or a small boy on a bicycle near the runway, or if there is someone at the stop line ready to taxi out in front of you, push the prop up for sure...otherwise just ignore it.


Bob Gardner
 
I have been told to put the prop full forward bur keep about 15 inches till you are basically in the flair. Then really wait till mains down to pull to idle.
 
drotto said:
I have been told to put the prop full forward bur keep about 15 inches till you are basically in the flair. Then really wait till mains down to pull to idle.
Click to expand...
ricflair.jpg
 
The HP took me about 3 hours. The complex took me about 2 hours. I'd guess if you did them together it should take 4-5 hours.
 
Depends on how fast you pick it up, and most importantly your CFI.

I've seen pilots who own HP complex aircraft, have 500 hrs and still don't really know how to manage their aircraft.
 
Probably around 5 hours. My CFI said I was ready at 5 hours but we needed to log 10 hours dual for insurance purposes. It all depends on the person.
 
Forgot to add, this plane has been upgraded to more or less glass panel. That is new also.
 
drotto said:
I have been told to put the prop full forward bur keep about 15 inches till you are basically in the flair. Then really wait till mains down to pull to idle.
Click to expand...
If you're going to do that, you need to about double the landing distances from the POH.


But generally, I agree with the folks about -- a competent, proficient Warrior pilot who's done their homework should be able to attain 61.31 HP/complex proficiency in 5-6 hours. However, as also noted above, the insurer involved may insist on anywhere from 10 to 25 hours in the 'Toga for someone with zero prior experience in anything more complex or high powered than a Warrior.
 
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drotto said:
Forgot to add, this plane has been upgraded to more or less glass panel. That is new also.
Click to expand...
If you're looking to achieve IFR proficiency in such a plane, it could easily take another 5 hours of instrument training in something with, say, a couple of GNS430W's and a G500 display system. Even VFR-only, it's going to take some work. That said, the more your instructor uses the various computer-based training aids and sims out there, the less flight time it will take.
 
Not just getting sign off though, also need the insurance company to be ok. I think they required 10 from my dad, so I will need at least that.
 
drotto said:
Not just getting sign off though, also need the insurance company to be ok. I think they required 10 from my dad, so I will need at least that.
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Only the insurance company can give you that answer. It should be in the policy, but you can also ask your agent/broker.
 
drotto said:
I have been told to put the prop full forward bur keep about 15 inches till you are basically in the flair. Then really wait till mains down to pull to idle.
Click to expand...

IMHO 15 inches is way too much, as Cap'n Ron suggests. Think about it: For 99% of the time the prop is pulling the airplane through the air. As you reduce power (and the prop flattens out) the pulling force is reduced: with the throttle at idle the plane is pushing the prop. Somewhere in the middle is "neutral," with the engine/prop neither pushing nor pulling. That is the sweet spot. As I said earlier, you can feel it in the seat of your pants: Go up to a decent altitude and set up a make-believe final approach; trim to maintain approach speed. Now pull the throttle all the way back to idle. Feel the deceleration?? You don't want to feel it on short final or the plane will drop like a rock (where have I heard that expression before?".

Bob
 
I may have miss typed a little may be 15 to comitted to land then cut back. Regardless, not used to the gradual reduction from the comitted the point, not like the Warrior where you go to idle to get down.
 
drotto said:
I may have miss typed a little may be 15 to comitted to land then cut back. Regardless, not used to the gradual reduction from the comitted the point, not like the Warrior where you go to idle to get down.
Click to expand...

The difference between fixed-pitch and constant-speed in a nutshell.

"Committed to land" is subjective. As you pile up the hours you will begin to realize that all of that extra speed and altitude is......extra. I figure that I am committed to land as I pass through 100 feet agl.

If you try to find the sweet spot as I suggested you will know when the prop flattens out. Not nearly as apparent with gradual reduction in MAP because the governor adjusts rapidly.

Bob
 
Keep me posted on your progress. I'm getting ready to start the same combo in prep for my aircraft upgrade
 
I'm currently transitioning from a 172 to a mooney rocket.

It took me 6+ hrs to feel confident enough to fly on my own. But my insurance requires 15hrs. I've got more than 11hrs logged currently.

The landing flare was the most difficult part for me. I really want to chop the power and flare on the landing like in the 172. However, you can not do that in the mooney. I hold power in all the way until I'm in ground effect, get stabilized and then ease back on the throttle and hold attitude until touch down. Took some getting used to but I'm getting better each time.
 
How much money do you have? Divide that by how many dollars an hr the plane is, and you will find your answer.
 
peytont said:
I'm currently transitioning from a 172 to a mooney rocket.

It took me 6+ hrs to feel confident enough to fly on my own. But my insurance requires 15hrs. I've got more than 11hrs logged currently.

The landing flare was the most difficult part for me. I really want to chop the power and flare on the landing like in the 172. However, you can not do that in the mooney. I hold power in all the way until I'm in ground effect, get stabilized and then ease back on the throttle and hold attitude until touch down. Took some getting used to but I'm getting better each time.
Click to expand...

Like I said, by the 5th trip around the pattern today, my pattern work seemed right on. The approach was nice and stable, holding speed well between 95 and 100 turning to final, then aiming for about 85 on final (the owners recommendation for this plane). That seemed great, did not feel like the plane was getting ahead of me. Oddest thing (other than the power) is this plane seems to want to land flatter than the Warrior to me. I am sure this is mainly due to the fact that in trainers it is so drilled into students to get that very pronounced flair for the stall landing. This plane not so much.

I am also sure the different sight window is effecting me some, the plane's long nose combined with a slight downward angle from the windshield edge to the front of the cowling is again different from the Warrior with the short nose and flater cowling.
 
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Every time I've landed an unfamilliar type, I've had a little trouble with the sight picture and the result has usually been a less than stellar landing. I don't think it's unusual with us new guys:)
 
I did my high perf in a C182, and complex in an Arrow. I had 7 hours of complex(Arrow) time and 1 hour of HP before renting a Saratoga solo. Took me a 1 hr rental checkride, doing mainly T&G's on a 2500ft grass strip in different configurations and the "usual" emergencies, and off I went (insurance requirements in Europe aren't that bad).

Like Bob Gardner earlier said, learn the prop. It is an amazing tool to either make or break your approach and landing. It can also help alot on getting down - quickly, or staying up as long as possible.

We were landing at Bratislava(Slovakia). Flying there from the south, you are kept with Vienna until very close to BTS. We ended up being at around 5 mile final, at 7000 feet. Still made it straight in. Just make sure your engine has cooled down before doing a manouver like that :)

First takeoff solo was insane. Short field, me alone (was going to London Biggin Hill to pick up my friends), light on fuel, nice cool crisp morning. The thing climbs like a jet :)

It's a fantastic plane. 5 of us on that trip, we visited 8 countries (flew through 11 I think), plane was a dream for that sort of Trans-Continental Trash.
 
drotto said:
Like I said, by the 5th trip around the pattern today, my pattern work seemed right on. The approach was nice and stable, holding speed well between 95 and 100 turning to final, then aiming for about 85 on final (the owners recommendation for this plane). That seemed great, did not feel like the plane was getting ahead of me. Oddest thing (other than the power) is this plane seems to want to land flatter than the Warrior to me. I am sure this is mainly due to the fact that in trainers it is so drilled into students to get that very pronounced flair for the stall landing. This plane not so much.

I am also sure the different sight window is effecting me some, the plane's long nose combined with a slight downward angle from the windshield edge to the front of the cowling is again different from the Warrior with the short nose and flater cowling.
Click to expand...

It doesn't really land any flatter, the nose is very long, there is the luggage space and then a 6 cylinder engine.

I don't agree with the whole "sight picture" mob. You should feel and know the plane, not aim for a certain "sight picture" through the windscreen. Peripheral vision is a big thing on estimating your height from the ground.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Helpful answer:rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

It takes what it takes, if it's your own plane, it takes all you can feed it in the end. Insurance typically requires 10-15hrs in type. If a person hasn't managed to get signed off HP and Complex in a PA-32R in 10hrs, you need to figure out why, because something isn't going right.
 
I'm at 5.3 into it now. Felt pretty comfortable with it after the first session. In 2.7 more in the arrow I'll do a couple more hours in the lance and hopefully be good to go.
 
bobmrg said:
Time to learn a new term: Flat plate drag. Get out your copy of the Airplane Flying Handbook and look at figure 12-3. Note that propeller drag increases dramatically at low blade angles. Your fixed-pitch training betrays you here because in the Warrior you had no control over blade angle...now you do. When you push the prop control full forward (as recommended by some....but not by me) and pull the throttle down past about 11 inches, the blade angle is no longer controlled by the governor and is as flat as it can get. It becomes, in effect, a flat plate bolted to the end of the crankshaft with a diameter equal to that of the propeller disk. Now you are trying to push the airplane through that immense drag with rapidly reducing kinetic energy. You need more energy from somewhere...how about burning some fuel?

Another thing to consider is the disturbed air behind that flat plate burbling (not flowing) over the horizontal stabilizer...eats into elevator power, doesn't it?

What to do, what to do?

Never pull the throttle back to idle...keep 11-12 inches so that the prop is pulling the airplane instead of the airplane pushing the prop...or at least idling without pushing or pulling. You will feel it in the seat of your pants.

Note: Flat plate drag is a useful tool for losing a lot of altitude in a hurry without extending flaps or gear...but use it only when on final when the engine has had a chance to cool down from cruise, and don't use it all the way to the runway unless you want to drive the gear up through the wings; you should be back to 11" or so on short final.

Many, if not most, instructors counsel pilots to push the prop control full forward as a part of the pre-landing checklist. The rationale is that if you have to go around you need it there for full power. My response is that 99% percent of the time you know darn well that you aren't going to go around and you can leave the prop control right where it was when you began your descent. If there is a cow or a small boy on a bicycle near the runway, or if there is someone at the stop line ready to taxi out in front of you, push the prop up for sure...otherwise just ignore it.


Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Thank you for this post Bob. Great narrative of what, and just as important for me and the way I learn, and the why behind the what. Very well explained.

I'll be starting my complex training shortly so appreciate this thread and the post.

Joe
 
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