How hard do you need to land a Piper Arrow too...

[kgruber]

Uh huh, think about that a bit,

I didn't think you flew floatplanes!

With flaps down there is more turning moment. The second the rubber meets the ground, the airplane wants to weathervane.

With full flaps it want to weathervane more than with no flaps. That is easily demonstrated by timing a turn on the water, with and without flaps.

One of the reasons for this is the downwind flap is in the wake of the fuselage, and the xwind has less effect on that flap. The upwind flap was a clear shot at the xwind, so it has more "push". That more push is a turning moment and makes the airplane turn faster.

On top of that, there is MUCH more wear and tear on an airplane when one lands with flaps!

Landing ALWAYS with full flaps is just flying by rote, and bad technique. Every landing is different and one should be flexible, and think "aerodynamics" and try to be nice to the airplane.....even if it is just a trashed rental.

 

[jesse]

One of aviation's most misunderstood (and oft misquoted) theories.

Flaps aren't there to slow you down (on many airplanes).
?

That last 20 degrees is drag. Drag slows you down, does it not?

 

[timwinters]

That last 20 degrees is drag. Drag slows you down, does it not?

Yes, 1 mph before I stall.

You DO always do full stall landings, don't you?

For ground stability it's far more important to do full stall landings than full flaps landings IMO.

 

[jesse]

Yes, 1 mph before I stall.

You DO always do full stall landings, don't you?

For ground stability it's far more important to do full stall landings than full flaps landings IMO.

I'm talking about as you touch down and start to roll out. You also have the option of carrying a little more speed on final that will be gone the moment you dump the power because of the drag.

The flaps still do things after your wheels touch down and your wings are still generating lift. The quicker you lose some speed the better.

 

[timwinters]

Like I said before, after I touch-down, in strong gusty winds, I don't need barn doors out screwing with me.

20* is far easier to control than 40* on the ground immediately after touch-down when the wind is whipping.

 

[timwinters]

And...BTW...with Johnson bar flaps it's really easy to lose them right after touchdown...which I do many times. I'd still far rather start from 20* than 40*.

 

[jesse]

To each their own - I've made a good number of strong direct crosswind landings in an older 182 with a johnson bar and 40 degrees of flaps and my preference was full flaps for every one of them.

I'd roll out of my spiraling descent, go power idle, pull 40 degrees and land.

As to the 1 knot difference in stall speed. Was this data provided from the manufacturer? Because the airspeed indicator is worthless at those AoAs.

 

[timwinters]

As to the 1 knot difference in stall speed. Was this data provided from the manufacturer?

No, I just made it up...that's why I used MPH instead of knot.

That last 20 degrees is drag.

Look at it a different way. That last 20* is nothing but drag..as you say. How does it do that?

By catching "the wind" maybe?

Do you want those barn doors out, on the ground, catching the gusty wind as you roll out?

I don't.

But, to each his own.

 

[wabower]

The C-210D shows 3 mph difference between 20 and 40 deg, but the N model is ~10% kts difference between 20 and 30 (it doesn't have 40 deg.)

 

[kgruber]

As to the 1 knot difference in stall speed. Was this data provided from the manufacturer? Because the airspeed indicator is worthless at those AoAs.

Yes. That data is provided by the manufacturer, who colors the ASI. The colored bands of the airspeed indicator are in CAS, and are right on perfect, at any AoA.

 

[alfadog]

As someone with experience in Arrow gear attachment issues, what was the extent of the damage? Did the gear trunnion actually shear off the main spar and come through the top of the wing or is there damage to the wing from the gear tearing the internal ribbing where the rear of the trunnion attaches? The latter is a known weak point in retractable Pipers.

 

[jesse]

Yes. That data is provided by the manufacturer, who colors the ASI. The colored bands of the airspeed indicator are in CAS, and are right on perfect, at any AoA.

The airspeed indicator does not show a difference in stall speed between
20 degrees of flaps and 40 degrees of flaps. Unless its done in some hidden color I'm not aware of? Perhaps I will check next time with a black light.

 

[Ghery]

We had to replace one of the trunnions in the club's Arrow many years ago when it was found to be cracked. My CFI pointed that out and showed me an important point to check during pre-flight. Is this a possibility here?

 

[tmyers]

There is an AD out there to remove the gear and check it for cracks every, I think 500 hours. It would have to be cracked pretty bad to see it with the naked eye I think.

Still doesn't negate a good look during the preflight.

For what it's worth I only use the second notch of flaps in gusty or high wind landings, my Arrow is just more steady that way.

 

[gismo]

I have done far worse than that, no damage, related to the landing anyway!

On my second lesson I stalled a 152 at least 20 feet above the runway (no exaggeration). Even though the instructor immediately went to full power and tried to arrest the descent we hit hard enough that my butt hurt and witnesses said the main gear flexed so far the belly almost touched (that may be an exaggeration). AFaIK there was no residual damage.

 

[gismo]

Some Arrows have the older hershey-bar wing, in which it may be easier. Even then though, it would be a pretty rough 'landing' to do it. I've come in hard on transition from a piper to a 172 with 40 degrees of flap and can see how one could end up with bent metal. But, if a pilot was transitioning from something like an old cessna to a cherokee, its harder to explain how they ended up liike that. IMHO

Also, I've never liked that 'start trimming up with elec trim for round-out-to-flare technique. In the 90's a lot of the newer/younger instructors taught that. Especially so in the newer 'swept wing' 1's 161, 181, 201... It didn't feel natural to me. The older instructors i worked with at that time didn't teach it. While it's a heavier yoke than many other light a/c, it's not extraordinarily so. I was 17, 6' tall, and weighed 140 pounds. I wasn't exactly a 'body builder.'

Trimming to flare is a bad idea IMO as well. OTOH, trimming to neutral at your "over the fence" speed makes the elevator force just about as manageable in the flare and doesn't leave you set up for a trim stall.

 

[gismo]

Like I said before, after I touch-down, in strong gusty winds, I don't need barn doors out screwing with me.

20* is far easier to control than 40* on the ground immediately after touch-down when the wind is whipping.

The flip side is that with full flaps you'll transition from fast enough for the aero controls to work to slow enough that the nose/tail wheel steering works more quickly. I'd rather deal with a little more squirreliness at touchdown when I can recover by going around than during the rollout when a go around might be a bad idea. So I'm with Jessee, unless there's a compelling reason not to (flap malfunction, go-around issue, desire to keep things as stable as possible when landing in LIFR, or just practice) I use full flaps. I do agree with you or whoever said that one should be capable of landing with any flap configuration.

 

[Jaybird180]

Trimming to flare is a bad idea IMO as well. OTOH, trimming to neutral at your "over the fence" speed makes the elevator force just about as manageable in the flare and doesn't leave you set up for a trim stall.

There are mitigations to avoid trim stall. If you don't know how to avoid one....

 

[Jay Honeck]

On my second lesson I stalled a 152 at least 20 feet above the runway (no exaggeration). Even though the instructor immediately went to full power and tried to arrest the descent we hit hard enough that my butt hurt and witnesses said the main gear flexed so far the belly almost touched (that may be an exaggeration). AFaIK there was no residual damage.

And that, in a nutshell, is why you never want to buy an airplane used for training newbies.

I was a back seat passenger in a Cherokee 180 that was being used to train the owner's husband. He flared, and stalled, at about 15' off the runway.

Cherokee back seats are mounted to a 3/4" thick piece of plywood, and have little give. When we hit, I thought (a) we were crashing, (b) my back hurt, and (c) surely the landing gear had come through the wing.

Turned out only (b) was true. He just did a "slam & go", as if it were perfectly normal. (Later, over a beer, I ripped my CFI buddy for not saving the plane. He shrugged, and said "I've been trying to teach this guy to fly for months. I've saved the plane countless times. He's never gonna learn if I don't let him go all the way to the runway. Besides, it's his plane."

I never flew as "baggage" during primary training, after that flight. Life is too short.

That's why I say, to drive the gear through the wings of an Arrow was a "crash", not a "landing".

 

[jesse]

And that, in a nutshell, is why you never want to buy an airplane used for training newbies.

I was a back seat passenger in a Cherokee 180 that was being used to train the owner's husband. He flared, and stalled, at about 15' off the runway.

Cherokee back seats are mounted to a 3/4" thick piece of plywood, and have little give. When we hit, I thought (a) we were crashing, (b) my back hurt, and (c) surely the landing gear had come through the wing.

Turned out only (b) was true. He just did a "slam & go", as if it were perfectly normal. (Later, over a beer, I ripped my CFI buddy for not saving the plane. He shrugged, and said "I've been trying to teach this guy to fly for months. I've saved the plane countless times. He's never gonna learn if I don't let him go all the way to the runway. Besides, it's his plane."

I never flew as "baggage" during primary training, after that flight. Life is too short.

That's why I say, to drive the gear through the wings of an Arrow was a "crash", not a "landing".

You get very used to some rather exciting landings when you're teaching. It's always an eyeopener for someone riding in the back.

 

[wabower]

I'm not sure if the airport diagram for KDUA still shows the old runway orientation, but my friend/student made a landing on Rwys 17-12 (the touchdown started on 17, the rollout was on 12, the wheels never left the pavement) that I still remember after almost 40 years.

You get very used to some rather exciting landings when you're teaching. It's always an eyeopener for someone riding in the back.

 

[gismo]

There are mitigations to avoid trim stall. If you don't know how to avoid one....

One very good way to avoid one is to never run the trim all the way up in the flare. And that's exactly what is likely to occur if you habitually use the electric trim to minimize pitch effort when flaring to land. I think it requires something more than 100 lbs of yoke pressure to stay at Vy with flaps extended in a Baron at full power if the trim is fully nose up.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

No one teaches the low passes before solo anymore eh?

I have my guys try to fly down the runway 6 inches above the deck, pass after pass they get better till they are accidentally grazing the mains once in a while, thats when it's time to work on touch and goes.

 

[RyanShort1]

On my second lesson I stalled a 152 at least 20 feet above the runway (no exaggeration). Even though the instructor immediately went to full power and tried to arrest the descent we hit hard enough that my butt hurt and witnesses said the main gear flexed so far the belly almost touched (that may be an exaggeration). AFaIK there was no residual damage.

I have seen a 170 do that... The prop struck the pavement.

Ryan

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tmyers]

One very good way to avoid one is to never run the trim all the way up in the flare. And that's exactly what is likely to occur if you habitually use the electric trim to minimize pitch effort when flaring to land. I think it requires something more than 100 lbs of yoke pressure to stay at Vy with flaps extended in a Baron at full power if the trim is fully nose up.

I use the trim sparingly. I typically find that the trim I use for landing is the same that i use for takeoff

 

[gismo]

I have seen a 170 do that... The prop struck the pavement.

Ryan

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

I don't know the difference in prop clearances between a 172 and 152 but I do know that the CFI did a good job setting and holding the pitch attitude just right as we hit. AFaIK neither the nosewheel or the tail hit the ground. I didn't recognize the importance at the time though and I suspect some amount of luck was involved. He was pretty shook up about it and uttered many bad words loudly, mostly in my direction.

 

[Jaybird180]

Ryan was saying it was extreme. A C170 is a taildragger. Get the picture now?

 

[wabower]

While in tail-high wheelie level-flight attitude?

I have seen a 170 do that... The prop struck the pavement.

Ryan

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[steingar]

I stop using full flaps in gusty crosswinds. I always figured the increased momentum from the increased speed made it harder to push the airplane around. Sure makes it easier to track the centerline.

Don't know if flaps actually lower my stall speed, I have my doubts. Even if they do, I hit the deck a bit faster I wear my tires a bit more. They're wear items, it's cool. Of course, I'm based on a 5K foot runway. I did use the approach to make a landing at WV62 in gusty crosswinds, but I used up all 3000 of their feet in the runout. Were the runway any shorter I think I would just go elsewhere.

 

[Jaybird180]

I stop using full flaps in gusty crosswinds. I always figured the increased momentum from the increased speed made it harder to push the airplane around. Sure makes it easier to track the centerline.

Don't know if flaps actually lower my stall speed, I have my doubts. Even if they do, I hit the deck a bit faster I wear my tires a bit more. They're wear items, it's cool. Of course, I'm based on a 5K foot runway. I did use the approach to make a landing at WV62 in gusty crosswinds, but I used up all 3000 of their feet in the runout. Were the runway any shorter I think I would just go elsewhere.

My home drone is a "short" field, going downhill on rollout. You'd overrun sir.

 

[jesse]

I stop using full flaps in gusty crosswinds. I always figured the increased momentum from the increased speed made it harder to push the airplane around. Sure makes it easier to track the centerline.

Don't know if flaps actually lower my stall speed, I have my doubts. Even if they do, I hit the deck a bit faster I wear my tires a bit more. They're wear items, it's cool. Of course, I'm based on a 5K foot runway. I did use the approach to make a landing at WV62 in gusty crosswinds, but I used up all 3000 of their feet in the runout. Were the runway any shorter I think I would just go elsewhere.

Needing 3,000 ft to land a Cherokee suggests that perhaps using all your flaps would produce a more desirable result. As that's well over three times what you actually need.

 

[MAKG1]

Needing 3,000 ft to land a Cherokee suggests that perhaps using all your flaps would produce a more desirable result. As that's well over three times what you actually need.

The problem is more likely excess airspeed on final.

I've flown a Cherokee (Archer) level at 47 KIAS. What's 1.3 Vs0 for that? How does that compare to your approach speed?

 

[Papa Foxtrot]

Needing 3,000 ft to land a Cherokee suggests that perhaps using all your flaps would produce a more desirable result. As that's well over three times what you actually need.

I learned to fly at Wilgrove(8A6) in Cherokee 140s with 2800 ft of asphalt. Trees at one end and a road at the other. The owner would have gotten really upset if one of the students had taken 3000 ft to land...

I do recall that shortly after I started, a student dropped one of the Cherokees in from about 20 ft. IIRC, prop strike, wrinkled firewall and bent nosegear resulted; the plane was off the line for a couple months. I don't believe that he was welcome back.

 

[steingar]

Needing 3,000 ft to land a Cherokee suggests that perhaps using all your flaps would produce a more desirable result. As that's well over three times what you actually need.

Won't disagree, and I wouldn't recommend my own technique to anyone. But that day in my aircraft it was do that or land elsewhere. Coming in with flaps at my normal landing speed I got blown off with the rudder at its stops.

I won't disagree with those of you using shorter airports, like I said normally I'd just go elsewhere. And I told Mrs. Steingar while we were doing the approach I've been discussing that if it didn't work we were going elsewhere.

Once upon a time I landed my trusty little Cessna 150 in a direct 24 knot crosswind. I of course didn't know it was a direct 24 knot crosswind, but I knew it was more than the aircraft could handle using my normal technique. Chewed up a lot of runway but landed safely, and good thing too. It was either that or go play in thunderstorms.

 

[Skylane81E]

The biggest advantage I have found in using partial flaps in x-winds is the shallower approach path make is easier to visually line up the correct correction. Bear in mind the glide path of a 182 with flaps 40 for that one though, in a Katana it is full flaps every landing

 

[Cap'n Jack]

What about less flaps makes things safer in high winds? Less flaps means you carry more energy into your touchdown which means you touchdown spinning the tiny tires underneath you at even faster speeds.

What is the primary cause for loss of control during the rollout of a landing? You'll find it's carrying too much energy. The slower you are the less that goes wrong. Less flaps means more energy. More energy is bad when you're riding a very poorly made car.

Jesse- what are your thoughts on this:
With a strong headwind, one isn't carrying extra speed relative to the ground, so the tires really aren't spinning faster. However, the control surfaces are more effective due to the increased airspeed, possibly allowing for better control in crosswind.

 

[poadeleted21]

I land full flaps every time. The piano key switch on my Bo is a PITA to set the flaps with and I'm used to how it handles with the flaps all the way out. I've done no flap landings and various settings between, I don't see the point.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I land full flaps every time. The piano key switch on my Bo is a PITA to set the flaps with and I'm used to how it handles with the flaps all the way out. I've done no flap landings and various settings between, I don't see the point.

Holy crap older Bos have the worst flap system in the world. That and the illogical placement of the throttle, prop and mixture knobs. Other than that, they are total awesomeness.

 

[GAZOO]

this hard maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY

 

[GAZOO]

or maybe this one is better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa12veWQEgU