How far out is short final?

I'd say 30 seconds or less to land would be short final. But it doesn't matter, I've found that nobody enters, announces or flies a pattern the same way.
 
"Make short approach" means the tower wants the downwind leg cut short and a turn early for the base leg. ATC assumes you will cut your distance between the numbers and your base leg in half, but depending on your aircraft, the runway length being adequate, you could "make short approach" immediately abeam the numbers or even further down the runway.

So, if in non-towered someone calls a short-approach but is either turning a normal base leg, or is further out on a straight in than half the base leg then they are not on a short approach.
 
deonb said:
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Love this video.

I was at Palo Alto a while back, doing some pattern work in the West Valley Decathlon N814AC and was following a 172 in the pattern. The Cessna was flying a really, really wide pattern, more appropriate to a 747. About mid-field for me, tower came on with: "4 Alpha Charlie, can you make short approach?". Me: "Affirmative, 4 Alpha Charlie."

Tower then gave me cleared to land and resequenced the 172 to #2. Sweet. Power off abeam the numbers, turning slip, down and made the first turn off. Saved time getting my 2 full stop landings in prior to going to the coast to play a bit...

San Jose gives me short approaches a lot also in front of the airliners. Lots of fun.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Timbeck2 said:
I'd say 30 seconds or less to land would be short final. But it doesn't matter, I've found that nobody enters, announces or flies a pattern the same way.
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30 seconds? I've gotta start calling final while downwind....
 
Well if you're flying an F-16, then you shouldn't be flying around at an uncontrolled airfield. ;)
 
I only call short final when another plane is moving in the runup or toward the runway. I had pilots jump out in front so I could practice a go around.
 
ejensen said:
I only call short final when another plane is moving in the runup or toward the runway. I had pilots jump out in front so I could practice a go around.
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That is a great way to look at it! Most people would just throw a hissy fit and throw a tantrum on twitter or faceplace. Well done sir, you have earned a nice cold bottle of E-BEER!
 
Acrodustertoo said:
That is a great way to look at it! Most people would just throw a hissy fit and throw a tantrum on twitter or faceplace. Well done sir, you have earned a nice cold bottle of E-BEER!
Click to expand...

Thanks, it tasted good. I really hate it when they try to chastise on the radio. Getting upset seldom accomplishes much.
 
korben88 said:
Since we are talking pilot controlled airports here wouldn't short final be defined as "whatever the hell you want it to be?"
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I think that new phrase being used, "pilot controlled" is goofy. I've never been able to "control" jack crap at an UNCONTROLLED airport other than the position of my own aircraft in relation to it. LOL.

"Pilot controlled" my ass. Tell it to the guy who just drove the lawn mower across the threshold. Haha. I'm sure he feels very "controlled" by the pilots. LOL!
 
SkyDog58 said:
You have to watch those guys. They will cut you off and they almost always are NORDO.
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How can they cut me off when it's their airport? o_O:) Just because it's publicly owed means nothing to them.
 
Short final? To me, 1/4 mile or less. My final is probably 1/2-3/4 mile...
 
At Fort Smith Regional last week the tower told another aircraft to follow the Cessna (me) on short final. I was probably a mile out. So apparently that controller considers a mile or so to be short final.

More specifically, tower said "Spooky 46, make your left turn, follow the Cessna on short final. 3323Y (me) keep your speed up and exit the runway as soon as you can."

Spooky 46 is one of these:
6f00847b6c2fb3d658f1f9e66df931ac.jpg


I made the first taxiway.
 
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denverpilot said:
I think that new phrase being used, "pilot controlled" is goofy. I've never been able to "control" jack crap at an UNCONTROLLED airport other than the position of my own aircraft in relation to it. LOL.

"Pilot controlled" my ass. Tell it to the guy who just drove the lawn mower across the threshold. Haha. I'm sure he feels very "controlled" by the pilots. LOL!
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We have a few pilot controllers at FNL
 
In a Cirrus it's 15 miles.

In an RV it's 0.5 miles
 
Shawn said:
Short final for me is anything tighter than a standard pattern turn to final.
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It doesn't help your case any, because I am a new student, but when I first ran into the phrase, I looked all over for a definition and I came to the same conclusion. But having me on your side probably is no added value.

Still, if other pilots don't agree and have a different definition, it doesn't help much.

Is it also used as I see mentioned in this thread for a pilot to kind of get priority even if they are a ways out?

The phrase is often used in books by pilots about flying, but they apparently assume it is a generally understood term, so I assume it means as you say, because it only makes sense to me that "final" is when you have turned from base to final and have come even closer to the runway, or if flying straight in, when you have gone past the point where someone in the pattern would have turned final.
 
citizen5000 said:
"Make short approach" means the tower wants the downwind leg cut short and a turn early for the base leg. ATC assumes you will cut your distance between the numbers and your base leg in half, but depending on your aircraft, the runway length being adequate, you could "make short approach" immediately abeam the numbers or even further down the runway.

So, if in non-towered someone calls a short-approach but is either turning a normal base leg, or is further out on a straight in than half the base leg then they are not on a short approach.
Click to expand...

Maybe a stupid question but necessary for me...is approach the same exact term as "final"?
At this point I was thinking approach can be from quite a ways out, but final is committed To landing as if flying a pattern and turning final (approach...but still approach seems to me to be a sloppier term, where final is a commitment to land unless the pilot decides it needs s go around)

As a student I wish you guys would define terms more precisely :) it sure would help me out.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Maybe a stupid question but necessary for me...is approach the same exact term as "final"?
Click to expand...

Negative. "Final" is a very specific leg of the traffic pattern and extends outward of the runway centerline. "Approach" is more often associated with an IFR approach. While a plane that is on final may be on an approach, a plane that is on an approach may not necessarily be on final.

I understand what you are asking how to communicate and here is my take as it is not defined as you are finding out.

These are how I make my position reports as needed depending on where I am (but not necessarily all three):

For a "long" final, I will call out "...Skyhwak 345, XX mile final, Runway 2-0..."
From about the standard traffic pattern base to final the position..."Skyhawk 345, Final, Runway 2-0..."
Inside the base to final turn point a ways "...Skyhawk 345...Short final, Runway 2-0...
 
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LongRoadBob said:
Maybe a stupid question but necessary for me...is approach the same exact term as "final"?
At this point I was thinking approach can be from quite a ways out, but final is committed To landing as if flying a pattern and turning final (approach...but still approach seems to me to be a sloppier term, where final is a commitment to land unless the pilot decides it needs s go around)

As a student I wish you guys would define terms more precisely :) it sure would help me out.
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No, they are not the same. VFR, an approach means you are descending to the airport. You may or may not be lined up with the runway. Final means you are. IFR, you can shoot a visual approach (pretty much the same), or an instrument approach. For the latter, the approach is the whole procedure, while final is the last descending segment.
 
Shawn said:
Negative. "Final" is a very specific leg of the traffic pattern and extends outward of the runway centerline. "Approach" is more often associated with an IFR approach. While a plane that is on final may be on an approach, a plane that is on an approach may not necessarily be on final.

I understand what you are asking how to communicate and here is my take as it is not defined as you are finding out.

These are how I make my position reports as needed depending on where I am (but not necessarily all three):

For a "long" final, I will call out "...Skyhwak 345, XX mile final, Runway 2-0..."
From about the standard traffic pattern base to final the position..."Skyhawk 345, Final, Runway 2-0..."
Inside the base to final turn point a ways "...Skyhawk 345...Short final, Runway 2-0...
Click to expand...

Thanks! I get the feeling that though aviation, GA, etc. have codified and require very precise terminology. And systems, there is still the human factor that one has to watch out for. That we don't mean exactly the same things always when we communicate and don't always understand communally the precise meanings.

But that that most do is encouraging, what you describe is good for me to hear because it is what I figured to. It confirms my understanding, and at my stage of learning, that is reall welcome!
 
MAKG1 said:
No, they are not the same. VFR, an approach means you are descending to the airport. You may or may not be lined up with the runway. Final means you are. IFR, you can shoot a visual approach (pretty much the same), or an instrument approach. For the latter, the approach is the whole procedure, while final is the last descending segment.
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Thanks, as you can see (but maybe I didn't make clear enough, no matter) my understanding is exactly what you wrote, I asked because it seemed to me to be unclear from some of the responses. I had the same understanding as you confirmed, but as a student it is important for me to double check that I am not missing things here. When I read things that contradict my understanding I have to check again to find out if I actually am misunderstanding a point.

What alarms me often here on POA, and surprise me, that someone had to ask even about short final. Because piloting an aircraft includes so much testing, and very precise definitions, it really surprised me (and has since I joined here) that there in a lot of cases that I assumed and from my own education, should be well understood, agreed upon, and not a debatable issue, there are so many pilots, even some with wide experience, that disagree or cannot agree totally. I guess I have been naive, as this is the same as happens generally but because of the rigorous training, and regulations, I thought there would be more of a general consensus and agreement on very basic things like this.

Live and learn.
 
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Heh. Here's some fun fodder for the mill...

"Final" said by itself is only defined in the PCG. You won't find it anywhere else.

"Commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach course or is aligned with a landing area."

Besides this, you'll also find "final approach" defined as the leg from the Final Approach Fix to the runway in numerous IFR references.

Everywhere really. Final approach is everywhere, but only defined as an IFR definition.

FAR 97.3
""(4) Final approach is the segment between the final approach fix or point and the runway, airport, or missed approach point." "

We do find one VFR-ish definition here...

AIM 4-3-2 defines a "Final approach" only at airports with operating control towers as...

"5. Final approach. A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended runway centerline from the base leg to the runway."

Ah, a base leg. Where's that supposed to be?

AIM 4-3-3 states in Traffic Patterns...

"3. Complete turn to final at least 1 / 4 mile from the runway."

The only other examples of a controller saying the word "final" by itself, is in the windshear warning example in the AIM, also 5-4-12 under radar approaches and specifically ASR approaches where it says, "In addition, the pilot will be advised of the location of the Missed Approach Point (MAP) prescribed for the procedure and the aircraft’s position each mile on final from the runway, airport or heliport or MAP, as appropriate."

And... it's also mentioned again singularly under the description of an IFR Visual Approach, but we're looking for VFR stuff.

Oh and finally as an example of how a controller will announce a laser light event near an airport in AIM 7-5-12...

"EXAMPLE- “Unauthorized laser illumination event, at 0100z, 8 mile final runway 18R at 3,000 feet, green laser from the southwest.”

Final by itself is also mentioned in the description of a military Flameout Pattern, in the PCG. Actually it describes an overhead pattern and says "180 degree final".

It's also in the Simulated Flameout as "continuous turn to final", because you know... consistency. LOL.

Same definition. Is it 180 degrees, or just continuous? Bad editor, no donut.

"Short final" is never seen anywhere in the FARs, AIM, or PCG that I can find.

But the most important use of the word final in the entire FAR is, of course, in 91.1...

"Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has FINAL authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;"

Y'all fly safe out there, ya hear? :)
 
denverpilot said:
Heh. Here's some fun fodder for the mill...

"Final" said by itself is only defined in the PCG. You won't find it anywhere else.

"Commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach course or is aligned with a landing area."

Besides this, you'll also find "final approach" defined as the leg from the Final Approach Fix to the runway in numerous IFR references.

Everywhere really. Final approach is everywhere, but only defined as an IFR definition.

FAR 97.3
""(4) Final approach is the segment between the final approach fix or point and the runway, airport, or missed approach point." "

We do find one VFR-ish definition here...

AIM 4-3-2 defines a "Final approach" only at airports with operating control towers as...

"5. Final approach. A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended runway centerline from the base leg to the runway."

Ah, a base leg. Where's that supposed to be?

AIM 4-3-3 states in Traffic Patterns...

"3. Complete turn to final at least 1 / 4 mile from the runway."

The only other examples of a controller saying the word "final" by itself, is in the windshear warning example in the AIM, also 5-4-12 under radar approaches and specifically ASR approaches where it says, "In addition, the pilot will be advised of the location of the Missed Approach Point (MAP) prescribed for the procedure and the aircraft’s position each mile on final from the runway, airport or heliport or MAP, as appropriate."

And... it's also mentioned again singularly under the description of an IFR Visual Approach, but we're looking for VFR stuff.

Oh and finally as an example of how a controller will announce a laser light event near an airport in AIM 7-5-12...

"EXAMPLE- “Unauthorized laser illumination event, at 0100z, 8 mile final runway 18R at 3,000 feet, green laser from the southwest.”

Final by itself is also mentioned in the description of a military Flameout Pattern, in the PCG. Actually it describes an overhead pattern and says "180 degree final".

It's also in the Simulated Flameout as "continuous turn to final", because you know... consistency. LOL.

Same definition. Is it 180 degrees, or just continuous? Bad editor, no donut.

"Short final" is never seen anywhere in the FARs, AIM, or PCG that I can find.

But the most important use of the word final in the entire FAR is, of course, in 91.1...

"Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has FINAL authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;"

Y'all fly safe out there, ya hear? :)
Click to expand...
Ah, Nate....

I know I'll live to regret this, but could you define "night" for the OP?
 
LongRoadBob said:
.....What alarms me often here on POA, and surprise me, that someone had to ask even about short final. Because piloting an aircraft includes so much testing, and very precise definitions, it really surprised me (and has since I joined here) that there in a lot of cases that I assumed and from my own education, should be well understood, agreed upon, and not a debatable issue, there are so many pilots, even some with wide experience, that disagree or cannot agree totally. I guess I have been naive, as this is the same as happens generally but because of the rigorous training, and regulations, I thought there would be more of a general consensus and agreement on very basic things like this....
Click to expand...

eh, I think a lot of this stuff you'll continue to learn as you progress, but the OP's question, and a lot of other questions here on PoA are completely valid. the term 'short final' is used often but I think everyone has noted that it's not clearly defined anywhere. not everything is clearly defined (in aviation as well as everywhere else). if it was, there would never be a question about anything. you shouldn't be alarmed, questioning things is why PoA is here. it used to also be here to talk boobie talk, but now it's mostly just here to discuss and question aviation topics, like this thread. not sure why you're 'alarmed'. just keep learning stuff, I know the rest of us are doing that as well.
 
Don't worry I'll save us...I'm the OP and I know what defines night. Hehe though I would have enjoyed reading Nate's answer!
 
I'm trying to remember if I've ever heard "short final" anywhere besides a towered airport. Normally I hear things like tower saying, "Clear to land #2 after the Warrior on short final." Or, "Traffic is a Cessna on short final."
 
azpilot said:
I would think short final is anywhere between 1/2 mile out and about to touchdown.
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How wide is your pattern??? I was taught to stay ~1/2 nm from the runway. That means as soon as I turn, I'm on short final? For me, I reserve it for ~200 agl or less.
 
In 1978, in a C-150 I was taught 1000' up,, 1000' from the runway, adjust power and flaps at the numbers,
fly another 1000', then turn base, another power and flap adjustment, now you turn base,
1000' from the numbers...
Is that short enough to be short final?
I think it is!
 
Hank S said:
How wide is your pattern??? I was taught to stay ~1/2 nm from the runway. That means as soon as I turn, I'm on short final? For me, I reserve it for ~200 agl or less.
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That was just my gut response without giving it too much thought.

BUT if it put a little more thought into it, let's say you use 200' agl. At a 500 fpm decent rate, that's 24 seconds. If you're doing 65 knots ground speed, you are going to cover 0.433 nm in that 200 feet, so I'd say we're not too far off. :D:D
 
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