How do you spend 87 million on strapping a dozen electric motors onto an existing four seat airframe

I think a lot of folks struggle with the reality of make-work. Contrary to popular belief, the dynamic is not constrained to unskilled labor.
 
but we need to be innovative...
 
There are two objectives or rules of government spending

1) the government has a big bag of money. The government’s only objective is to spend that big bag of money

2) contractors know the government has a big bag of money. The contractor’s only objective is to get that big bag of money

there are no other rules
 
This 'Electric Anything & Everything' will become real after they start selling as Homebuilt Kits. The folks building planes in their garages and barns are the true innovators. Hiring a team of "The Smartest People On Earth" does not exists. That's the Unicorn in this equation and NASA has just showed us that.

Just look at the Short Take Off & Landing (STOL) community. The basic Taylor Brothers - Taylor Cub - has been modified over the past 90 years until it can land/takeoff on helicopter pads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Cub
Also the Roche Monoplane
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronca_C-2
 
There are two objectives or rules of government spending

1) the government has a big bag of money. The government’s only objective is to spend that big bag of money

2) contractors know the government has a big bag of money. The contractor’s only objective is to get that big bag of money

there are no other rules
Simple, yet deadly accurate. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
a guy like Burt Rutan could’ve bolted a dozen electric motors to an airframe on his lunch break.
FYI: he's doing that right now with his eVTOL project and says it will be different than any other eVTOL to date. Regardless, its the same reason SpaceX can launch rockets for a fraction of the cost than NASA can. The only time NASA does good with money is when they are assisting the industry vs an in-house project.
 
This 'Electric Anything & Everything' will become real after they start selling as Homebuilt Kits. The folks building planes in their garages and barns are the true innovators. Hiring a team of "The Smartest People On Earth" does not exists. That's the Unicorn in this equation and NASA has just showed us that.

Just look at the Short Take Off & Landing (STOL) community. The basic Taylor Brothers - Taylor Cub - has been modified over the past 90 years until it can land/takeoff on helicopter pads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Cub
Also the Roche Monoplane
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronca_C-2
Agreed, Except for those pesky laws of physics. Not everything is possible.
 
Just off the top of my head - who skipped the math part that putting a lot of small diameter fans in a row doesn't increase the area as much as 2 to 4 large fans on each wing, AND that motors in electric airplanes probably don't have much of a cooling problem? Maybe I'm missing something.

The other part is that this could probably have been simulated on model airplane design software that costs a couple of hundred bucks.

My bet is that this project was led by someone in politics, directed by someone with a liberal arts degree (not that there's anything wrong with that), and more than one engineer could be quoted off the record as saying "this is stupid"...if there were any engineers involved on the NASA side. We need whistle blower protection for stupid.

Ok, time for some iced tea again...getting too negative.
 
There are two objectives or rules of government spending

1) the government has a big bag of OUR money. The government’s only objective is to spend that big bag of money

2) contractors know the government has a big bag of money. The contractor’s only objective is to get that big bag of money

there are no other rules
Fixed that.
 
I could have loaned them my expertise and insight for $4,700, and in less than five minutes devined the technical issues that rendered the project goals unattainable.

For another couple of grand, I could also have generated a report on the matter with sufficient verbosity to satisfy scrutiny by congressional oversight committees.

However, for POA purposes, one word will do. Batteries.

In the conference, Bradley Flick, director of NASA’s Armstrong Flight Research Center at Edwards Air Force Base, said NASA based the program on assumptions that existing electric propulsion technology was advanced enough to be incorporated into the Maxwell. He said the researchers discovered those assumptions were incorrect. “What we learned is that many of those necessary subsystems were not sufficiently mature for safe flight,” he said.

In 2021 the team decided to fund the research through the end of 2023, and they thought they’d get the plane into the air. Flick said that earlier this year researchers discovered a problem with the technology that would make flying the plane unsafe and there wouldn’t be enough time to fix it before the scheduled end of the program.
 
In the conference, Bradley Flick, director of NASA’s Armstrong Flight Research Center at Edwards Air Force Base, said NASA based the program on assumptions that existing electric propulsion technology was advanced enough to be incorporated into the Maxwell. He said the researchers discovered those assumptions were incorrect.
Well, in other words, wishful thinking.

Our world is being run by wishful thinkers, and it's not working.
 
However, for POA purposes, one word will do. Batteries.

At first, I think they were going for 3 things. Battery power, Electric Motors (duh), and distributed propulsion.

The batteries and motors could have been a benchtop demo. Didn't need to build an airplane to prove or disprove that concept. The distributed power didn't need batteries. Put a genset in the back and run the distributed propulsion off of that.

It is insane that they spent $87M on this, and even crazier that after all that effort, they couldn't produce something that worked.
 
I could have loaned them my expertise and insight for $4,700, and in less than five minutes devined the technical issues that rendered the project goals unattainable.

For another couple of grand, I could also have generated a report on the matter with sufficient verbosity to satisfy scrutiny by congressional oversight committees.

However, for POA purposes, one word will do. Batteries.

In the conference, Bradley Flick, director of NASA’s Armstrong Flight Research Center at Edwards Air Force Base, said NASA based the program on assumptions that existing electric propulsion technology was advanced enough to be incorporated into the Maxwell. He said the researchers discovered those assumptions were incorrect. “What we learned is that many of those necessary subsystems were not sufficiently mature for safe flight,” he said.

In 2021 the team decided to fund the research through the end of 2023, and they thought they’d get the plane into the air. Flick said that earlier this year researchers discovered a problem with the technology that would make flying the plane unsafe and there wouldn’t be enough time to fix it before the scheduled end of the program.
Where did you read "batteries" in there?
 
Well, in other words, wishful thinking.

Our world is being run by wishful thinkers, and it's not working.
In California, wishful thinking is the law.

I heard of one small municipal airport that received a million-dollar Federal grant. What did the city decide to spend it on? Charging stations for electric airplanes.
 
In California, wishful thinking is the law.

I heard of one small municipal airport that received a million-dollar Federal grant. What did the city decide to spend it on? Charging stations for electric airplanes.
Other posts mentioned a lack of infrastructure for electric planes as a reason for not having such planes. Maybe a bit too early adopter.
 
There are two objectives or rules of government spending

1) the government has a big bag of money. The government’s only objective is to spend that big bag of money

2) contractors know the government has a big bag of money. The contractor’s only objective is to get that big bag of money

there are no other rules

I guess with some government budgets. My company did quite a bit of federal government contract work for the military. Every friggen job, some bean counter would hold us to some obscure interpretation of the contract language and rnd up screwing us out of any profit we hoped to make. After losing money on multiple contracts we stopped working for the federal government.

Everything is not always as people like to portray things. My final perspective on our work was that the contract managers for our work were very smart people who would fight us over every dime.

If you put enough money in the bid to actually cover the work, you weren't going to get the job. If you tried to low ball and make it up on change orders you were simply going to lose money. I saw this scenario happen over and over again.

Spent quite a few years doing projects at Beale Air Force Base and Hill Air Force Base (among others). Never once did i see any kind of open-ended project or get a change order approved for anything more than the bare minimum it cost us plus 10% "for profit".
 
Believe the X-57 project started in mid-2016, so it lasted for seven years. So, about $12.5 million a year.

NASA has a very snazzy website for the X-57. Interesting to note that, after seven years and $87 million dollars, the front page of the site seems to display exactly zero photos of real live hardware. Rather, it's endless graphics and renderings of what a flying X-57 would look like amongst the clouds.

Indeed, on NASA's "Who's on the team" site, they list the following:

upload_2023-7-4_20-10-57.png

The fact that they feel the need to highlight the visual artists is an interesting choice. It's just like every other electric aircraft concept; long on impressive renderings and videos, very short on actual working hardware.

Further down the X-57's "Who's on the team" site, they highlight four NASA centers, along with seven different companies, for a total of 11 different entities, each taking a piece of the $87 million dollar pie. When Big NASA shows up with a bag of money, and asks if you can do "X," no one is going to raise their hands and say "we don't think that's technically feasible." That goes for NASA centers, and for private industry. Instead, everyone lines up at the trough for a chunk of the money, and starts to work. If the project fails, well, everyone just chalks it up to "science is hard," and other such nonsense.

In general, costs boil down to two things: Hardware, and people's time. Hardware wise, it's hard to tell all that's wrapped up in it. You have a Tecnam P2006 (about $750k), electric motors, batteries, etc. Along with all the other test fixtures, etc they bought. I dunno, figure maybe $20 million all-in?

$87 million total minus $20 million in hardware leaves you $67 million for people. With people, figure $100k per person per year, plus an additional 50% for overhead (give or take). That's $150k per person, per year.

$76 million in labor, spread over seven years, at $150k a head, averages out to about 72 bodies working full time on the project.

You know how government programs have reputations of a lot of "deadwood" amongst the employees, and a never ending list of inefficiencies? I bet if you visited those NASA centers and private companies, you'd have no problem finding dozens of employees charging their time to the X-57 project, while producing very little. Granted, they may think they're value-added, but the truth is often different.

Bottom line, as stated earlier, a lot of these programs are "make work" for the NASA centers and for industry.


 
Great analysis, Fast Eddie, I think you’re onto something. The government could not have possibly spent $20 million on batteries and motors and another 67 million on personnel. I think this money went into some kind of black project or maybe a secret slush fund… I hear some noise outside. I think I see a black helicopter hovering out my window. I wonder… <<…carrier lost…>>
 
Spent quite a few years doing projects at Beale Air Force Base and Hill Air Force Base (among others). Never once did i see any kind of open-ended project or get a change order approved for anything more than the bare minimum it cost us plus 10% "for profit".
You are apparently in the wrong business. You need to be doing R&D if you really want to suck up tax dollars. Doing actual work or producing an actual product is not glamorous enough, and there are plenty of others who will (or think they can) do the same thing for less. Get your R&D program funded, though... cha-ching.
 
You are apparently in the wrong business. You need to be doing R&D if you really want to suck up tax dollars. Doing actual work or producing an actual product is not glamorous enough, and there are plenty of others who will (or think they can) do the same thing for less. Get your R&D program funded, though... cha-ching.
The production side of the military industrial complex does a fine job of sucking money out of our pockets…

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/weapon...ng-pentagon-60-minutes-transcript-2023-05-21/
 
NASA has a very snazzy website for the X-57. Interesting to note that, after seven years and $87 million dollars, the front page of the site seems to display exactly zero photos of real live hardware. Rather, it's endless graphics and renderings of what a flying X-57 would look like amongst the clouds.
This is as far as they got:

 
sort of. the government can print as much money as they want.
When the government prints money, the new money dilutes the value of your existing money. Printing money faster than the economy is growing is theft, pure and simple.
 
Back
Top