Ships sink submarines!
How do I become a fighter pilot?
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Pugs
Cleared for Takeoff
A not uncommon story! I started wearing glasses in 5th grade so NFO was going to be it. I suppose it made NAMI less of a big deal.
simtech
En-Route
Latest class here nobody wanted fighters and they made a few go that track who didn’t want it. Seems like a different mindset lately…
Pugs
Cleared for Takeoff
They drafted jets when I went through VT-10 in 1987. The VP community was piling up perdiem in classic P-3 deployments and they pressed hard with roadshows to show prospective NFOs how good life would be. That wasn't why I was there and not a single person drafted to jets made it through to winging.
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Velocity173
I imagine it has a lot to do with how aggressive you are at trying to stay in the cockpit as well. As an SP I saw a wide range of hours with my commissioned staffers. Some would really press at getting on the flight schedule and trying to pick up PC. Others just accepted their staff path and even spent years in non operational flying assignments. You could see a 15 yr LTC with less than 400 hrs. Made my head hurt trying to figure out if they made their “gates” for flight pay. Some embraced the system and found ways to go from one desk job to another til retirement, while others just wanted to fly and either got out or jumped ship to 160th.
Interesting. ANG/AFR fighter units get wayyyyy more UPT applicants than heavy units
EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
When I was a SQ/CC in the ANG, we had hundreds of apps for every slot. (Fighters)
I spoke with the T-6 leadership and they said there are little to no fighter pilots in the T6 and most of the IPs talk about how bad the fighter lifestyle is (as if they know) which is driving a lot of folks away from fighters.
No big surprise; very few fighter pilots want to teach UPT, and even fewer want to teach the basics. We need good people everywhere, it’s just a shame we are getting folks in the fighter track that don’t want it. It’s hard enough if you do want it.
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Velocity173
(4:30) Competing against over 300 applicants!
Pinecone
En-Route
Pinecone
En-Route
Cool, I know Murph
hindsight2020
Final Approach
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hindsight2020
With respect, you narrative is conflating causation and correlation. I find your framing of the dynamics of why aetc is so devoid of 11f undergraduate instructors, specious. The only thing you got right from where i sit is that indeed, 11Fs dont want to teach upt/intermediate. But that aint a our community is being maligned by "herbivores" dynamic, that's a look in the mirror dynamic.
When it comes to attitude problems, i could tell you who the lion share of the problem children at PIT are, and it aint the bone stock tanker pilot, nor the FAIP. That "how would they know?" scoff from the watch-shooter usual suspects is rampant, and the chips on shoulder over "enduring the indignity" of being told how to speak/demo/do/supervise undergrads by non-11F instructors, are the size of dallas. Hardest part of my job bar none since leaving upt for instructor production.
Lastly, and in fairness this isnt unique to 11f communities, but losing commands often cherrypick their litter and chuck their third draft picks over to AETC. To wit, that bitterness and attitude problem becomes a feedback loop where the plurality of aetc bills get paid by a guy who privately understands his beloved community didnt love him back enough to retain him for WIC/IPUG et al. The irony is of course i concurrently also know several 11Fs who volunteered for upt to get out from the toxicity of their fighter community. Their words, not mine. So it's not all non-vols to be clear.
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EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
@hindsight2020
Wow, that’s a mighty big chip on your shoulder!
If you could stow the auto-hatred of all 11F types for a few before default flaming we could clear up a few misunderstandings…
I know several guys who have asked for AETC assignments for exactly that - QOL is generally way better from what I’ve been told. I certainly think it looks that way from the outside. Many fighter squadrons have bad culture and some folks can only see a fix for it by jettisoning the community; I don’t know anyone who hasn’t at least thought about it.
There can certainly be good and bad IPs from every walk of life. I never said that the non-11F IPs skill is the problem. The attitude towards fighter guys that was so forward in your post is exactly what I’m talking about. You paint with a very wide brush; students pick up on that too. Unfortunately many 11Fs that get non vol’d to AETC help to propagate the attitude you are so certain we all have.
Unfortunately many communities dump problem children on AETC. That’s a problem for so many reasons and it’s not fair to the ones who want to be there or the students who have to try to learn from bad apples.
“we need good people everywhere“ meant we need motivated IPs that are passionate about teaching in the pipeline. It’s a shame that the 11F communities traditionally have a negative connotation about teaching UPT. I think it goes back to the porch back in the day where once you left the community you never got back unless you were some general’s pet project. That was a tough pill to swallow for many - only getting one assignment in a fighter. The bitterness was misplaced but I understand where it came from.
Notice I didn’t say “i think the T-6 guys are bashing all fighter pilots”, I just repeated what the T6 sq/cc told me when we spoke about a student we had that was having some troubles. Lighten up Francis! Same team!
Wow, that’s a mighty big chip on your shoulder!
If you could stow the auto-hatred of all 11F types for a few before default flaming we could clear up a few misunderstandings…
I know several guys who have asked for AETC assignments for exactly that - QOL is generally way better from what I’ve been told. I certainly think it looks that way from the outside. Many fighter squadrons have bad culture and some folks can only see a fix for it by jettisoning the community; I don’t know anyone who hasn’t at least thought about it.
There can certainly be good and bad IPs from every walk of life. I never said that the non-11F IPs skill is the problem. The attitude towards fighter guys that was so forward in your post is exactly what I’m talking about. You paint with a very wide brush; students pick up on that too. Unfortunately many 11Fs that get non vol’d to AETC help to propagate the attitude you are so certain we all have.
Unfortunately many communities dump problem children on AETC. That’s a problem for so many reasons and it’s not fair to the ones who want to be there or the students who have to try to learn from bad apples.
“we need good people everywhere“ meant we need motivated IPs that are passionate about teaching in the pipeline. It’s a shame that the 11F communities traditionally have a negative connotation about teaching UPT. I think it goes back to the porch back in the day where once you left the community you never got back unless you were some general’s pet project. That was a tough pill to swallow for many - only getting one assignment in a fighter. The bitterness was misplaced but I understand where it came from.
Notice I didn’t say “i think the T-6 guys are bashing all fighter pilots”, I just repeated what the T6 sq/cc told me when we spoke about a student we had that was having some troubles. Lighten up Francis! Same team!
hindsight2020
Final Approach
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hindsight2020
...but I didnt say all 11Fs have attitude problems [*teaching undergrad]. What i said was that, of the problem children with attitude problems on that *front, all were 11Fs. Hopefully you understand that nuance, it's not a distinction without difference in the least.
Im not going to repeat my prior points, as you underscored them all for me in your response (I've bolded them) . We're saying the same thing. Same team indeed, no sarcasm intended.
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Velocity173
I used to talk to GA ANG F-15s all the time on approach. Saw one doing 600 kts once coming in for the overhead. Once they switched to B-1s, they hardly ever flew.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well....it's going to take a combination of skill and luck. My cuz signed up to be a fighter pilot. He was a PP and instrument rated. Prior to that he was a pro baseball player. He worked the minor leagues for 3-4 years....not making the majors. Straight A student.....with academic scholarships thru college. He signs up for AF and goes to school. He was #5 out of his class of 30 couple.....and number 1,2,3 got fighters.....and there were a few more pilot slots below that. He was offered a CSO....F15E back seater....loves it. He should be going for LtCol soon. They sent him to school in Princeton for an advanced degree.
So, my point is....there are many ways to get there....but, there are no promises and it's a tough road. I had a slot in the Air National Guard to fly C130's. Was in for six months and was DQ'd for medical reasons...even though I had all my ratings thru Commercial and A&P and was all set....till the medical review board decided otherwise. It all worked out....but again...there is some luck and skill.
So, my point is....there are many ways to get there....but, there are no promises and it's a tough road. I had a slot in the Air National Guard to fly C130's. Was in for six months and was DQ'd for medical reasons...even though I had all my ratings thru Commercial and A&P and was all set....till the medical review board decided otherwise. It all worked out....but again...there is some luck and skill.
Gilbert Buettner
Line Up and Wait
When I finished UPT, I think just about everyone in the class wanted fighters. There was just one available, and the guy who got it flunked out in bomb school. This was the height of the Vietnam war, and I really wanted an F-105 "Wild Weasel." Instead, I got the C-130E and it turned out to be a wonderful job... most of the time.
EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
The best piece of advice I got (and usually the first I pass along) is to bloom where you are planted. Sounds like you did just that; well done!
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
Sounds like one small thing that our personnel bureau (BUPERS) does right, is not sending our garbage back to the training command. You won't see pipe hitters being sent to primary VTs from my community (er, I guess, communities now), but a lot of good folks get sent to T-45's at least. Most of the time when we had a real problem child, they were either FNAEB'd during their first fleet tour (less common fleet-wide, but quite common in mine because we had a skipper who *cared), or more commonly, they were sent to either adversary land, or an entirely non-flying tour. "Production", whether that be VT anything, FRS, or SFTI/weapon school/TOPGUN/NSAWC, is expected to continue tracking. There are no points deducted for that production being in an orange and white jet compared to a grey one. That being said, there are some nuanced second order effects of going to the VT's that might encourage more people than average to leave the navy. And I think it is due to a similar personal offense to being sent there, that you outline with our AF friends going from fighters to UPT. Or being irritated that a P-3 or E-2 pilot is telling them how to teach formation flying. Wrong or right, I heard those complaints from friends of mine in Kingsville and Meridian at that point in our careers.
* That skipper was a JO in the squadron who's skipper dropped a few live 500 lb'ers on friendly forces during a training exercise in Kuwait in 2001, a few months before 9/11, while flying OSW missions. He had absolutely zero patience for guys who didn't make flying their #1 job, and he didn't mince words when he thought a person wasn't cut out for this job (and he made sure they didn't keep doing it). A lot of guys don't have nearly that level of unpopular wisdom and courage in his position as squadron commander. In the end, he still made CAG. Was an idol and mentor to a lot of us JOs.
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The aircraft selection comments got me thinking 23 yrs back to flight school. They always told us, “select the airframe that’s most aligned with your personality.” Well when I showed up, I was all about Apaches. Baddest helicopter in the world. When they flew in to my high school, I said one day I’m gonna fly one of those. Come to find out, hardly anyone wanted one. My WOC classmates made fun of me and said there’ll be plenty of Apaches around come selection day.
Well, throughout flight school you become more wise to the Army Aviation mission and how each airframe fits in. After flying Kiowas in BCS and doing basic observation tasks, I knew that wasn’t the one for me. I also began to think about the statement of the aircraft fitting my personality. I knew signing up that killing someone was a possibility but it’s also not something to take lightly. In the Apache, especially after 9/11, that’s a reality for almost every Apache pilot I knew. So 3/4 through flight school I found myself conflicted with my preference of Apaches. One day working out at the gym, I’d meet my future Black Hawk IP. He was former 160th MH-60 (DAP) guy. He asked what I wanted after graduation and told him Apaches. He sat me down and for probably 30 minutes discussed the pros and cons of the two airframes. After that I was sold on 60s.
I’m sure it goes in waves but during my time in flight school it was lopsided against Apaches. It was getting so bad that two classes before me the top five in the class were forced into Apaches. Come selection day in my class, out of the 13 Apaches offered only 2 actually selected it. There were 11 hash marks left on the chalk board and all 11 would go to the bottom of the class. Like I said, I think it goes in waves though and maybe today Apaches are the preferred mount. Well, nowadays fixedwing is an option so there’s that.
To the OP, think hard about your end goals in aviation. A fighter slot is a very lofted goal but make sure that mission is where your mindset is at. Also, like @EvilEagle stated, if you don’t get your first choice “bloom where you are planted.”
Well, throughout flight school you become more wise to the Army Aviation mission and how each airframe fits in. After flying Kiowas in BCS and doing basic observation tasks, I knew that wasn’t the one for me. I also began to think about the statement of the aircraft fitting my personality. I knew signing up that killing someone was a possibility but it’s also not something to take lightly. In the Apache, especially after 9/11, that’s a reality for almost every Apache pilot I knew. So 3/4 through flight school I found myself conflicted with my preference of Apaches. One day working out at the gym, I’d meet my future Black Hawk IP. He was former 160th MH-60 (DAP) guy. He asked what I wanted after graduation and told him Apaches. He sat me down and for probably 30 minutes discussed the pros and cons of the two airframes. After that I was sold on 60s.
I’m sure it goes in waves but during my time in flight school it was lopsided against Apaches. It was getting so bad that two classes before me the top five in the class were forced into Apaches. Come selection day in my class, out of the 13 Apaches offered only 2 actually selected it. There were 11 hash marks left on the chalk board and all 11 would go to the bottom of the class. Like I said, I think it goes in waves though and maybe today Apaches are the preferred mount. Well, nowadays fixedwing is an option so there’s that.
To the OP, think hard about your end goals in aviation. A fighter slot is a very lofted goal but make sure that mission is where your mindset is at. Also, like @EvilEagle stated, if you don’t get your first choice “bloom where you are planted.”
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Very rare but getting something other than a fighter isn’t necessarily a death sentence either. Short story, got air sick in flight school, went helos. Later on put in for fighters and got picked up. Retired as a Capt of the Rosevelt. Well, relieved of command but I won’t go into that.