How can a novice save on overhaul expense?

[FORANE]

After reading the overhaul time thread I wondered, how can a novice save money on an overhaul.

I have heard the arguments that an overhaul from a well known name or shop has value. I have heard factory new cylinders are worth the extra expense over overhauled jugs. Setting those considerations aside, and assuming an experimental so there are not limitations on what I am allowed to do, what can a novice reasonably do to save money on overhaul?

I would presume doing my own removal and reinstall would be a good start. Would one save a significant amount by pulling the motor, removing the jugs and turning over the case to a shop for overhaul from there? Should a novice split a case?

 

[KSMooniac]

I'm doing exactly that right now. I removed, dis-assembled, and sent components out to shops of my choice. Haven't started re-assembly yet, but will do so with an IA friend of mine in his shop. I'll do the re-installation as well, and then get him to double-check/inspect everything before we fire it up the first time. It is really not a difficult task as these are very simple engines.

I consider this akin to acting like your own general contractor on a project... you can set the time line and specifications, and of course over see everything. You can spec things that aren't available with a factory product, such as precision balancing, porting/polishing, or other mods like the Centrilube cam. I'm saving a lot of money (if I value my labor at $0/hr) but I've added a lot of down-time.

 

[CTLSi]

After reading the overhaul time thread I wondered, how can a novice save money on an overhaul.

I have heard the arguments that an overhaul from a well known name or shop has value. I have heard factory new cylinders are worth the extra expense over overhauled jugs. Setting those considerations aside, and assuming an experimental so there are not limitations on what I am allowed to do, what can a novice reasonably do to save money on overhaul?

I would presume doing my own removal and reinstall would be a good start. Would one save a significant amount by pulling the motor, removing the jugs and turning over the case to a shop for overhaul from there? Should a novice split a case?

Nevermind.

 

[Norman]

After reading the overhaul time thread I wondered, how can a novice save money on an overhaul.

I have heard the arguments that an overhaul from a well known name or shop has value. I have heard factory new cylinders are worth the extra expense over overhauled jugs. Setting those considerations aside, and assuming an experimental so there are not limitations on what I am allowed to do, what can a novice reasonably do to save money on overhaul?

I would presume doing my own removal and reinstall would be a good start. Would one save a significant amount by pulling the motor, removing the jugs and turning over the case to a shop for overhaul from there? Should a novice split a case?

If you have the mechanical knowledge to remove and reinstall the engine you may save some bucks there. BUT! You would want that work to be accomplished under the auspices of an A&P.

The overhaul should be done by a qualified shop or mechanic. They can't sign it off as overhauled if they only do part of the work.

As for saving money, taking the cheapest bid isn't always the most frugal. It sometimes pays to pay more up front and get a better job.

 

[FORANE]

If you are flying and working on an experimental you are A. not allowed to fly over congested areas and B. allowed to kill yourself making your own modifications, mechanical work, and even creating a completely unairworthy craft if you want.

This sort of post is entirely unnecessary.

 

[Velocity173]

This sort of post is entirely unnecessary.

Not to mention congested area applies to the phase 1 fly off period only. Even then, there are still allowances. EABs fly over congested areas all the time.

 

[flyingmoose]

Yes you can save quite a bit of money by doing that.

 

[docmirror]

Remove prop, and prop control if equipped. Remove engine from airframe. Remove exhaust system and intake as well as injectors and spider if equipped. Remove mags, starter, alt/gen, fuel pump, oil pump, etc from acc case on back of engine. Remove all shrouds and cooling tin, take pictures.

At this point you have a 'long block' in aviation terms. Heads and pistons with jugs attached to the case. If you feel good at this point, remove the cylinders one at a time. You will need a special cylinder base wrench for most engines, they are avail on Amazon. Keep the pistons with the jugs, do not mix them. Use a rag to protect the rods from banging into the cylinder flange in the case.

Bag and tag all fasteners you remove. Clean with purple degreaser. Take to the overhaul shop of your choice and give them all the bits. I would advise an overhaul to "new limits", which will bring all clearances back to original when the engine was built. At this point, you can watch, or help with final assembly, but not with any machining I would say. You should get it back with all acc installed. From here, you will need the help of an A&P to get it mounted, connected and test run if not done at the rebuild shop.

Yes, you can save significant by doing a lot of this time consuming work yourself.

 

[FORANE]

Remove prop, and prop control if equipped. Remove engine from airframe. Remove exhaust system and intake as well as injectors and spider if equipped. Remove mags, starter, alt/gen, fuel pump, oil pump, etc from acc case on back of engine. Remove all shrouds and cooling tin, take pictures.

At this point you have a 'long block' in aviation terms. Heads and pistons with jugs attached to the case. If you feel good at this point, remove the cylinders one at a time. You will need a special cylinder base wrench for most engines, they are avail on Amazon. Keep the pistons with the jugs, do not mix them. Use a rag to protect the rods from banging into the cylinder flange in the case.

Bag and tag all fasteners you remove. Clean with purple degreaser. Take to the overhaul shop of your choice and give them all the bits. I would advise an overhaul to "new limits", which will bring all clearances back to original when the engine was built. At this point, you can watch, or help with final assembly, but not with any machining I would say. You should get it back with all acc installed. From here, you will need the help of an A&P to get it mounted, connected and test run if not done at the rebuild shop.

Yes, you can save significant by doing a lot of this time consuming work yourself.

Excellent!

 

[RotorAndWing]

1) Know your mechanic and his capabilities.

2) Pick an engine overhauler who stands behind his work and is knowledgeable.

3) Do not rely on sciolist on the internet for advice.

 

[kyleb]

I overhauled the engine on my RV. It started life as a first run removal for upgrade from a CAP Cessna. When I got it, it was an O-320-D2J.

I disassembled it, farmed out all of the machine work, brought all of the pieces home and reassembled the engine. I changed the accessory case and added a mechanical fuel pump during the rebuild.

I learned a lot and the engine has been (knock wood) bulletproof for 900 hours.

I don't think I saved any money vs having a reputable shop (say Zephyr) rebuild it to the same spec's, but again, I learned a lot about a Lycoming engine and get to <legitimately> brag on internet forums that I built my own engine.

 

[FORANE]

1) Know your mechanic and his capabilities.

2) Pick an engine overhauler who stands behind his work and is knowledgeable.

3) Do not rely on sciolist on the internet for advice.

You made me google that term; certainly not a first for that though.

Sounds like good advice. Any recommendations on how to go about #1? If I were looking to contract an overhauler, any words of advice on finding the players in that field? Ask the locals? Google? Back of trade-a-plane? Just use the big name?

 

[FORANE]

I overhauled the engine on my RV. It started life as a first run removal for upgrade from a CAP Cessna. When I got it, it was an O-320-D2J.

I disassembled it, farmed out all of the machine work, brought all of the pieces home and reassembled the engine. I changed the accessory case and added a mechanical fuel pump during the rebuild.

I learned a lot and the engine has been (knock wood) bulletproof for 900 hours.

I don't think I saved any money vs having a reputable shop (say Zephyr) rebuild it to the same spec's, but again, I learned a lot about a Lycoming engine and get to <legitimately> brag on internet forums that I built my own engine.

I like this approach.
How did you go about finding or deciding on a machine shop?

 

[kyleb]

I like this approach.
How did you go about finding or deciding on a machine shop?

There are maybe half dozen shops that are routinely discussed in these forums which do in-house machine work. You can find most of 'em in Trade a Plane.

The two primary shops I used were:

-Divco for the crankcase.

-Aircraft Specialty Services for all of the steel parts (crank, cam, rods, gears, lifters).

Off-hand, I don't remember where my cylinders, gaskets, bearings, etc. came from. Some of those items are available from Aircraft Spruce, other items you have to get through Aviall and/or other vendors.

I did have a friendly IA do an AD check on the core just to make sure I didn't reassemble the engine with anything that was a known problem. That covered the sintered iron oil pump AD, the crankshaft bore AD, and maybe a couple of others.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you have the mechanical knowledge to remove and reinstall the engine you may save some bucks there. BUT! You would want that work to be accomplished under the auspices of an A&P.

I think it is more accurate to say that unless you're dealing with an EXP-AB aircraft, you are required to do it under the direct supervision of and A&P who signs for the work when completed. Beyond that, I agree with R&W' (other than his pejorative terminology in item #3).

How to find a good overhauler? Get references and recommendations. Some shops with excellent reputations for top quality work include:

Zephyr Engines in FL
Precision Engine in KY
Victor
Lycon
Penn Yan

...and no doubt others will be recommended here before long.

 

[Silvaire]

...Should a novice split a case?

It depends on what you mean by "novice". Do you mean you've never taken a Lycoming apart or that you've never worked on engines at all? Because if you're a decent mechanic, maybe have overhauled a few automotive engines and such there's no Rocket Science to an O-320. You can get the overhaul manuals and they tell you everything pretty much step by step on how to take it apart, how to measure everything and how to put it back together. NDT inspections such as Magnaflux and any machine work you have a shop do.

It completely depends on your skill level.

 

[Ted]

I'm not a novice, and I chose to farm out all of the work on my double overhaul to the shop. I did this for two reasons. 1) I knew I wasn't going to have the time to consistently be part of it myself and 2) Because of that, I felt letting them do all the work would result in a higher probability of a safe outcome 3) I got a good price on the overhauls from Charlie and that was worth going with.

Had those three not been the case, I would have at least pulled the engines myself, and probably done most of the double overhaul supervised under my A&P or an A&P who was comfortable with and routinely did overhauls.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

How much of an overhaul is labor? It seems to me that you may not be saving much money verses the costs of parts, machining and inspection.

 

[kyleb]

How much of an overhaul is labor? It seems to me that you may not be saving much money verses the costs of parts, machining and inspection.

Lots of truth here. And I'd bet the rebuild shops which do repeat business with the machine shops get a much better deal on machine work than a one time customer.

Even better, reputable rebuild shops provide a warranty.

 

[Silvaire]

How much of an overhaul is labor?

Honestly? It's about 50/50

Look, when it comes down to "saving money" then it really only boils down to how much of the grunt work you're willing to do yourself. The parts cost are pretty much fixed.

 

[jsstevens]

Lots of truth here. And I'd bet the rebuild shops which do repeat business with the machine shops get a much better deal on machine work than a one time customer.

Even better, reputable rebuild shops provide a warranty.

I think it depend on what you consider "overhaul". If you include removal & reinstallation, that's a fair amount of work in addition to disassembly and reassembly.

John

 

[Goofy]

How much of an overhaul is labor? It seems to me that you may not be saving much money verses the costs of parts, machining and inspection.

Depends on what you call "much money"....
There is several thousand dollars in the labor. Just fired mine up yesterday after 6 months of working on it. Learned a lot. Understand how it works. Know it inside and out. Saved a lot of money. Very satisfying.