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flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iMooniac
Hi all,

My house has speakers installed in several rooms and even outside with wall-mounted volume controls. They're driven by one of these:

denon_avr-1908_av_surround_receiver.jpg


... A Denon AVR-1908, which is huge and is practically stuffed into the cabinet.

Unfortunately, its amp is blown. If I crank the volume up all the way to max, and one of the room volume controls all the way up, and it's quiet, I can hear it. Barely. But it's pretty much useless.

We also don't use it the way the former owners did, where it was also driving a home theater setup in the living room and had a billion inputs. I'm going to leave all the wiring in place, but honestly I'd rather just be able to use Bluetooth and a few audio outputs as the sources. We don't need it to hook up to TV or receive radio and such.

So really, what I'm looking for is something like this, without much of a UI on it other than source select, with the ability to drive several pairs of speakers, and preferably smaller size. New-age features like Bluetooth, integration with Alexa, etc would be nice but not required. (I actually have a standalone bluetooth interface I can use anyway.)

So... What is the product I am looking for?
 
Sonos amp comes to mind, it’ll drive 1 pair of speakers through the wire, the rest of the speakers connect thru WiFi.

It’s can get pricey depending on what you want to do, though.

We have a Sonos amp driving our outdoor speakers traditionally and the office, kitchen, game room, and each bedroom have a Sonos 1 speaker that connects their WiFi. Just have to have a 110v oultet nearby. Each room can play whatever music they want independently of each other. UI is a phone app.
 
I have a Denon X3300w. love it. go look at accessories4less.com. I use mine to drive my HT setup, I can turn it on with my phone and adjust channels and volume while in another room, it has BT, and it might be more than you need though but if nothing else you can grow with it.
 
TCABM said:
Sonos amp comes to mind, it’ll drive 1 pair of speakers through the wire, the rest of the speakers connect thru WiFi.

It’s can get pricey depending on what you want to do, though.
Click to expand...

If I bought enough Sonos units to drive all the speakers I have wired up, I could pay for an annual on the plane! :eek: That's an interesting unit, though.

For clarity: The speakers I have are mostly the in-wall/in-ceiling variety, and they're already all wired up to a central location.
 
simtech said:
I have a Denon X3300w. love it. go look at accessories4less.com. I use mine to drive my HT setup, I can turn it on with my phone and adjust channels and volume while in another room, it has BT, and it might be more than you need though but if nothing else you can grow with it.
Click to expand...

Looking at the back of that one, it looks like that it's geared toward a single surround setup rather than driving several pairs of plain old left/right stereo speakers. It's still big too. With the Denon I have, I can't fully close the cabinet door between the big unit and all the wires going to it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Looking at the back of that one, it looks like that it's geared toward a single surround setup rather than driving several pairs of plain old left/right stereo speakers. It's still big too. With the Denon I have, I can't fully close the cabinet door between the big unit and all the wires going to it.
Click to expand...

It is a big unit and heavy! I have all my AV stuff in a closet at the back of the room and it takes up a good bit for sure.

It does have zone B so you can have separate set of speakers running a different source. I haven't used that feature yet but plan on it. I use it for a 5.1 set up, ill try the 7 channel one day but don't have the true space for it in the FROG. But I also plan to put some in ceiling speakers throughout the house for zone B. And when listening to music currently it actually only uses the front left and right towers, so my though if you just use those channels and daisy chain the speakers. But you still run into the big form factor...hmm...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hi all,

My house has speakers installed in several rooms and even outside with wall-mounted volume controls. They're driven by one of these:

... A Denon AVR-1908, which is huge and is practically stuffed into the cabinet.


So... What is the product I am looking for?
Click to expand...

What exactly do you want the ‘final solution’ to do? That’s going to drive a recommendation. Or, save your time and frustration and call the guys at crutchfield.com. They’ll help you figure a solution for free and you don’t have to buy anything from them.
 
Why don't you two just get out the ol' bagpipes and make your own music?

:)
 
^^^ That weren't right. Sometimes you wanna listen to your 8-Tracks or real-to-real with the OG ****, don't ya?

I know I'like some Judas Priest vinyl like I was back in '84.

Might lead to some new polls:

What was the first music CD you bought?
What was the first music CD you duped?
What was the first song you downloaded on Napster?
 
Or what was the first vinyl you bought! Mine was csn&y, deja vu in about 1973 (when I was 13).

First CD was Flim and the BBs, Tricycle.

First bootlegged CD and first Napster download are the same answer. Dave Brubeck, Time Out.
 
TCABM said:
What exactly do you want the ‘final solution’ to do? That’s going to drive a recommendation.
Click to expand...

I want it to have multiple audio inputs and drive several pairs of in-wall stereo speakers and one pair of outdoor speakers. No need for any "home theater" or TV features.
 
timwinters said:
Or what was the first vinyl you bought! Mine was csn&y, deja vu in about 1973 (when I was 13).

First CD was Flim and the BBs, Tricycle.

First bootlegged CD and first Napster download are the same answer. Dave Brubeck, Time Out.
Click to expand...
My first record was probably a Grand Funk Railroad 45. Got no idea if that's really it or not, but it seems about right. Early to mid 70's, so it might have been "We're an American Band". Or not, I forget.

First CD might have been a Tom Petty album.

Never did Napster.

Good times.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I want it to have multiple audio inputs and drive several pairs of in-wall stereo speakers and one pair of outdoor speakers. No need for any "home theater" or TV features.
Click to expand...

How do you currently control which pair of in-wall speakers gets what sound right now? Is it switched separately from the receiver (do all in-wall speakers play from one source and are selectable on/off) or can you selectively play different sources in different rooms?
 
timwinters said:
Or what was the first vinyl you bought! Mine was csn&y, deja vu in about 1973 (when I was 13).

First CD was Flim and the BBs, Tricycle.

First bootlegged CD and first Napster download are the same answer. Dave Brubeck, Time Out.
Click to expand...
First vinyl was Space Oddity
First CD? absolutely no clue, they just started appearing after I finished my undergrad and had a job with excess cash for such frivolities...
 
TCABM said:
How do you currently control which pair of in-wall speakers gets what sound right now? Is it switched separately from the receiver (do all in-wall speakers play from one source and are selectable on/off) or can you selectively play different sources in different rooms?
Click to expand...

All of the in-wall stuff gets the same source - The house is open concept and the speakers are pretty much all within earshot of other sets of speakers with no doors in between (except the outdoor ones). So, we really only need one source at a time.
 
We built our house in 2002. I pre-wired for whole-house audio with speaker wires, CAT5 for control systems, etc. Never bought all the equipment to run it, though. Whenever I'd look into it it was complex, everything had compromises, and expensive.

Several months ago I heard about Sonos and now have a three-room system using the Sonos One speakers with Alexa voice control. It's fantastic but you already have all the speakers and control system in place which wouldn't be needed. You could use the Sonos Amp units to drive the existing speakers in each zone but, I'd think, the reason to do that would be more to change to the streaming services instead of local sources. Probably easier to just find a new multi-zone receiver.
 
I've got a stereo upstairs wired to outdoor speakers by the pool a story below. Works great, but a pain to change the music. This thread gives me some ideas. I could change the source of my outdoor speakers to a Sonos amp, but looks like I could achieve the same thing with just a Sonos Connect. With only a few minutes of research, I see cheaper Bluetooth options, but I may be pushing the range, so maybe WiFi would be better. Opinions?
 
Make sure the impedance of the ceiling speakers works with the amp. I have one of those setups and it was wired to the zone B output of a AV amp. Previous owner complained that he couldn't get any decent volume. They were all hooked up in parallel ;-) I am looking to get a true multi-room amp that allows me to remotely control the volume for each of the 5 rooms + deck that have built in speakers.

Niles seems to be the premium solution in this market. There are some cheaper Chinese units available.
 
I had a GE home audio system which alas I couldn't get any more parts for when I expanded my home so I ripped it out (at least it used cat 5 which I could reuse) and put in a new system with a nice matrix switch and zones in every room. The system is fed with the following inputs (primarily):

The main TV.
Digital source: Pandora/etc..
A cheap-assed UNIDEN scanner permanently set to 122.9 (I do live on an airport).
The output of the mixing console under my grand piano that repeats the piano and any related audio from the music room.

The piano is a 6' 7" Yamaha Disklavier (plays itself when I'm not inclined to do so myself).
 
You need to do some math on the impedance and distance of the speakers. With an A/V type receiver, each zone is really meant to drive two speakers over a short distance (you can’t just pile on speakers on a given zone). And it drops fast over distance, which you can compensate for a bit with heavy gage wire (lower impedance). Another option is to use a 70V system like they do in restaurants. This uses constant voltage and step up and step down transformers and lets you deploy a bunch of speakers out of one output. You need a 70V amp for this and you need to look at your in wall speakers to see if they have a transformer. In wall and in ceiling speakers are typically made for 70V systems.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I've got a stereo upstairs wired to outdoor speakers by the pool a story below. Works great, but a pain to change the music. This thread gives me some ideas. I could change the source of my outdoor speakers to a Sonos amp, but looks like I could achieve the same thing with just a Sonos Connect. With only a few minutes of research, I see cheaper Bluetooth options, but I may be pushing the range, so maybe WiFi would be better. Opinions?
Click to expand...
The Connect and Amp do different things.

The Sonos Amp plays audio, from the Sonos ecosystem, on your speakers.
The Sonos Connect takes your audio sources and puts them into the Sonos ecosystem so that you can play them on any/all of your Sonos speakers.

Sonos is much more than a wireless speaker and that's hard to explain without being able to show you. While your Sonos system can play audio from your phone, that's not what it's primarily designed to do. Sonos replaces your local sources (radio, CDs, MP3 players) with streaming sources. No need for a receiver to drive the system. Even their home theater solution, built around the Sonos Playbar or Playbase, works without an A/V receiver.

You connect your Sonos system, through the app, to you streaming services such as Spotify, Amazon Music, Pandora, iHeartRadio, etc. When you start playback, through the Sonos app or voice control, the Sonos device streams directly from the streaming service. Our family uses our three-room system for music (Spotify), radio (iHeartRadio), podcasts (PocketCast), news (Alexa's Flashbriefing), weather (Alexa), and lots of miscellaneous Alexa stuff.

Voice control is available two ways; via the Sonos One speaker (not to be confused with the Sonos Play:1) or through an Amazon Alexa device. I thought voice control was just a gimmick but we're actually using voice control for 95% of our interaction with the Sonos system.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I've got a stereo upstairs wired to outdoor speakers by the pool a story below. Works great, but a pain to change the music. This thread gives me some ideas. I could change the source of my outdoor speakers to a Sonos amp, but looks like I could achieve the same thing with just a Sonos Connect. With only a few minutes of research, I see cheaper Bluetooth options, but I may be pushing the range, so maybe WiFi would be better. Opinions?
Click to expand...

A Google Chromecast Audio into an input on your existing amp, or an Echo if you’re an Amazon guy, and you’d be able to control whatever you’re playing from it out by the pool.

For a LOT less money than a Sonos product. We’re talking $35 to try out either one when the Echo Dots are on sale. $35 for Google’s and $45 for Amazon at normal prices.

Apps available for your phone if you’re playing from any service that either support. Depends on what you want as a source for the music.

The Echo dot will also do direct Bluetooth from anything but you mentioned it might be too far away.

But there’s a bunch of options for an amp already in place and wired.

Sonos lost their major edge which was “whole house” playing through multiple devices. All of them are doing that now. So they shouldn’t really pull down the price tag they’re still getting. IMHO. Their speakers, if you’re used to listening on good speakers with a real amp, just aren’t that great.

I’d rather feed a real amp and real speakers with an add on device than buy Sonos speakers for sure. They aren’t as bad as Bose, but they’re more about convenience than audio quality.

Now right after saying that, for “out by the pool” I would just get a mid sized Bluetooth “party speaker” and attach a phone to it out there. They make some that are water/splash resistant and big enough to sound decent outdoors. Like big enough they have wheels.

Still not high end audiophile, because Bluetooth (there’s some ways to make that better too but that’s a whole article unto itself) but at least they can get loud. Haven’t seen many outdoor speaker setups built in that can push any real bass.

And you want bass at the pool party. :) :) :)
 
For driving four pair of speakers, you probably want a separate distribution amp, and two or four amplifiers.
 
SCCutler said:
For driving four pair of speakers, you probably want a separate distribution amp, and two or four amplifiers.
Click to expand...

I wasn’t trying to jump the gun. I don’t know if his speakers are tiny in-ceiling things or monster room-filling things. Nor the application.

I’ve driven right speakers mono in drop ceiling tiles for Muzak in businesses with tiny amps. Never going to crank that up to 11 and rock out. LOL.

“Eight speakers” isn’t enough info.
 
For eight speakers, you should probably look at a 70V system. That is what it is designed for, driving a bunch of dispersed speakers for background music. Put in a separate 70V amp to drive those speakers.
 
Now you made me spend money :D



(I actually had most of the pieces for a project to re-configure the 'TV & AV nook' already piled in the kitchen, I was just procrastinating on buying the multi-room amp)
 
denverpilot said:
With all eight on simultaneously or do you need an amp that has four switches for turning on and off the pairs?
Click to expand...

Naah, just all on, all the time.

I have one of the outdoor speakers down at the moment, I'll have to check their specs. The in-wall ones are actually in the ceiling, and there's nothing on them indicating what they are from the outside - I'll have to try to take one down without messing up the mounting too much! They do seem to be mounted one pair per room so I don't think they're dual voice coil or anything like that anyway.
 
Well, I had 5 sets of wires. Three rooms with ceiling speakers and a set of speakers on the covered porch, all with Muzak style wall mounted volume controls. Hooked all of them to the amp and found the following:

- the indoor ceiling speakers sound great.
- the weather proof outdoor speakers sound really wimpy. I'll have to get on a ladder and check whether they are 70V.
- one set of wires doesn't seem to connect to anything. There is an orphan blue 4-conductor cable at the main panel in the basement. I'll have to check whether that is the other end.

So, 3/4 success. I can feed the 'B' output from the AV receiver to three rooms. The 'B' output can run the same source as the surround system or it can play a different source like Airplay or FM radio.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Naah, just all on, all the time.

I have one of the outdoor speakers down at the moment, I'll have to check their specs. The in-wall ones are actually in the ceiling, and there's nothing on them indicating what they are from the outside - I'll have to try to take one down without messing up the mounting too much! They do seem to be mounted one pair per room so I don't think they're dual voice coil or anything like that anyway.
Click to expand...

What I was wondering was are they in pairs/stereo. But yeah, driving 4 pair is possible with a pretty beefy amp simultaneously if it’s made to do it. The other way to go is only run a couple at a time and use a switch box.
 
OK, so I looked at one of the outdoor speakers. It's a Niles OS7.3, which is 8 ohms.

Still haven't figured this one out.
 
Plenty of inputs and outputs, but too big (rack mountable): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...-37d4-5aff-acf7-78d45ba071ef&pf_rd_i=14269301

Several inputs and good compact size, but only a single output: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...ae-50e4-87f8-5065e06c9913&pf_rd_i=281053&th=1

And I'm seeing a lot of variations on that theme. (Reminds me of the good ol' "fast, cheap, and good, pick any two!")

So, I'm thinking I'm gonna get the latter, and one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Improved-Sel...keywords=speaker+distribution+4+channel&psc=1

Thoughts?
 
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