Holding Patterns

[slowjoe]

Hi all, I'm working on my IFR rating. I recently took and passed the written and I'm starting on my hood time. I won't be starting with a CFII for another month or so. But I have a question.

No where in the ground training, I used the King IFR course, or in the AIM can I find information on holding pattern descents. Well, that's not quite accurate. The AIM talks about ATC instructions for descent, but what about holding in non-controlled patterns? At my local field we've got ILS/DME, LOC, and VOR approaches. They hold at the TFD VOR, standard pattern. The approaches begin at 3,500MSL, but what if the top of the stack is say 4,500 or 5,000? When do you descend, every loop? Listening in I never hear anyone calling a step down, just entry to and exit out of the stack.

 

[roncachamp]

Hi all, I'm working on my IFR rating. I recently took and passed the written and I'm starting on my hood time. I won't be starting with a CFII for another month or so. But I have a question.

No where in the ground training, I used the King IFR course, or in the AIM can I find information on holding pattern descents. Well, that's not quite accurate. The AIM talks about ATC instructions for descent, but what about holding in non-controlled patterns? At my local field we've got ILS/DME, LOC, and VOR approaches. They hold at the TFD VOR, standard pattern. The approaches begin at 3,500MSL, but what if the top of the stack is say 4,500 or 5,000? When do you descend, every loop? Listening in I never hear anyone calling a step down, just entry to and exit out of the stack.

"Non-controlled patterns"? What are they? A holding pattern at TFD is in controlled airspace, you're operating IFR, you descend when you're cleared to a lower altitude.

 

[slowjoe]

"Non-controlled patterns"? What are they? A holding pattern at TFD is in controlled airspace, you're operating IFR, you descend when you're cleared to a lower altitude.

Controlled airspace, yes, but you don't have to be on an active flight plan or in contact with ATC to enter that pattern and fly the approaches to CGZ, which is uncontrolled. TFD, in relation to CGZ, is used almost primarily for training. Additionally TFD has limited radar visibility. The FAA is looking at putting radar in at CGZ to fill in the blanks.

Bad choice of words, but for all relative purposes it's uncontrolled. ATC does not clear you to enter the stack. Everyone just calls for "top of the stack". If the top of the stack is 4,500 and you enter at 4,500, when do you descend?

 

[roncachamp]

Controlled airspace, yes, but you don't have to be on an active flight plan or in contact with ATC to enter that pattern and fly the approaches to CGZ, which is uncontrolled.

You do if you're operating IFR.

Bad choice of words, but for all relative purposes it's uncontrolled. ATC does not clear you to enter the stack. Everyone just calls for "top of the stack". If the top of the stack is 4,500 and you enter at 4,500, when do you descend?

Whenever you want to, you're describing a VFR operation, see and avoid.

 

[slowjoe]

You do if you're operating IFR.



Whenever you want to, you're describing a VFR operation, see and avoid.

That's my point, you're practicing, not really IFR. But there has to be something more standardized. I hear these schools all the time stacking up to 6,500 at times over TFD. There can be half a dozen planes in the stack and if there's no standard for descent there'd end up being multiple planes at the same levels. Not everyone would want to descend at the same time and no one calls altitude changes. And before you say they're doing it wrong, we're talking about major schools here: Lufthansa, Sebena, ATP, ATCC, Oxford.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

But there has to be something more standardized.

Pure "See and Be Seen".

There can be half a dozen planes in the stack and if there's no standard for descent there'd end up being multiple planes at the same levels.

Well, apparently they are doing something right.

Not everyone would want to descend at the same time and no one calls altitude changes.

Might seem like a silly question, but could they be talking to each other on a "company" frequency?

And before you say they're doing it wrong, we're talking about major schools here: Lufthansa, Sebena, ATP, ATCC, Oxford.

So? Just because they have a name does not mean they are automatically doing it right.

Without being there, I would bet they are talking to each other on a dedicated frequency.

 

[slowjoe]

Pure "See and Be Seen".



Well, apparently they are doing something right.



Might seem like a silly question, but could they be talking to each other on a "company" frequency?



So? Just because they have a name does not mean they are automatically doing it right.

Without being there, I would bet they are talking to each other on a dedicated frequency.

Not likely a frequency other than 122.7, the published TFD/KCGZ frequency. Too many players. In addition to the corporate schools there is also independent CFI-I and local school training going on. Not to mention transient traffic. We've got some of the heaviest flight training in the country out here.

You never did practice approaches where you're at? All of your training was actually under ATC control? That doesn't happen out here. There are a lot of non-towered airports out here that have IAP, and many of them have limited / no radar coverage. And most places use holds in lieu of procedure turns. Ergo, there HAS to be some kind of standardization. The FAA isn't that stupid, they would have thought about this.

I'm going flying this morning, I'm sure one of the big schools will be on the field today, we get dozens of them a day, I'll ask the instructors what they do and post the answer.

 

[AdamZ]

I'm going flying this morning, I'm sure one of the big schools will be on the field today, we get dozens of them a day, I'll ask the instructors what they do and post the answer.

I think thats your best bet. I've never heard of what you described.

 

[Teller1900]

I went to ATP at IWA and have spent a large portion of my life in that hold. Give me a few minutes to get to my big computer and I'll write more. There is a bit more standardization to it.

 

[Teller1900]

Not likely a frequency other than 122.7, the published TFD/KCGZ frequency. Too many players. In addition to the corporate schools there is also independent CFI-I and local school training going on. Not to mention transient traffic. We've got some of the heaviest flight training in the country out here.

That's no joke. I've had more close calls out in the area south of the PHX Bravo than any place else I've flown. They used to use a discrete CTAF freq for the hold at TFD. In conjunction with the FAA and AZ DOT, they had set up a freq (I think it was 23.8 or 23.85, but don't quote me on that) for use in the hold, to alleviate some of the congestion on the KCGZ CTAF. When I left there were rumors floating around that this freq was going to go away...this was three, almost four years ago, so it could have changed by now. I know at KIWA they had signs published by the AZ DOT hanging in all of the flight schools and in the hallways in the GA terminal outlining the "recomended" procedures from the TFD hold. You might do well to stop in at IWA (or likely any of the local airports) and ask around about what the normal procedures are...there's actually a good bit of self-standardization going on between the schools in the area.

You never did practice approaches where you're at? All of your training was actually under ATC control? That doesn't happen out here. There are a lot of non-towered airports out here that have IAP, and many of them have limited / no radar coverage. And most places use holds in lieu of procedure turns. Ergo, there HAS to be some kind of standardization. The FAA isn't that stupid, they would have thought about this.

The thing of it is, practice approaches are usually flown as a VFR maneuver (hence the need for a safety pilot when you're under the hood, and the reason ATC says something like "maintain VFR, no separation services provided" before clearing you for the hold or the ILS). Steve and Greg are both refering to actual holds in IMC or at least VMC on an IFR flight plan. You're refering to VFR practice. The rules are different and that's where the confusion is.

Most places throughout the country don't have a fraction of the traffic that TFD does, certainly not as VFR traffic practicing IFR maneuvers. This place is kind of the exception to the norm!

At the TFD hold, ATC does control the airspace. If it's actually IMC, or if an IFR aircraft comes in to CGZ, they will be assigned an altitude to fly until established on (and cleared for) the approach. If there's a stack of IFR aircraft at TFD, each will be asigned an altitude to hold until the guy below them cancels IFR. Then ATC will drop the next guy down and clear him for the approach.

When it's a bunch of VFR aircraft, though, ATC doesn't have to maintain separation, so it's just like flying VFR anywhere else - you have to separate yourself. Even though you're practicing an IFR task, you're still a VFR aircraft and subject to those rules.

The SOP at the TFD hold is to call inbound to the stack when you're ~5-10 miles out. The folks in the stack should be making position reports, and usually whoever is at the top of the stack will tell you what altitude they're at. You enter the stack 500ft above the last guy in. When someone reports either on the ground or missed approach, the bottom guy in the stack (whoever is at the published hold altitude) starts his approach. When he announces TFD inbound, the next lowest guy announces that he's decending. Once he starts down, they guy above him does the same. And so on. When you go miss off CGZ, it all starts over, announce inbound to the stack and someone should tell you where the top is. This system only works as well as the position reports guys are making, but that's the risk of flying VFR.

If you were actually an IFR aircraft (on an IFR flight plan), ATC would tell you to descend. When practicing at TFD you're VFR, so it's just a matter of see and avoid.

Make sense? Clear as mud? Let me know if I can confuse you any more, I've spend a lot of time in this hold!

I'm going flying this morning, I'm sure one of the big schools will be on the field today, we get dozens of them a day, I'll ask the instructors what they do and post the answer.

Good luck, have fun, and let us know how it goes!

 

[AdamZ]

So Matt, what happens on a VFR day whey there are 4-5 planes in the stack on one freq and you have a plane inbound for the approach on an actual IR plan?

Will he be told no can do and given a visual and be expected to then join the stack?, Does he bump in front of the stack?

I suppose if you are a local you know the stack procedure but what the heck does some poor schmoe from out of the area do on a VFR arrival? Fly the Pattern?, Join the stack? How would he/she know to join the stack if he had too.

 

[Teller1900]

So Matt, what happens on a VFR day whey there are 4-5 planes in the stack on one freq and you have a plane inbound for the approach on an actual IR plan?

Will he be told no can do and given a visual and be expected to then join the stack?, Does he bump in front of the stack?

I suppose if you are a local you know the stack procedure but what the heck does some poor schmoe from out of the area do on a VFR arrival? Fly the Pattern?, Join the stack? How would he/she know to join the stack if he had too.

That's where it gets interesting. Fortunately TFD/KCGZ are in the southern part of AZ, so there's rarely need for an actual IFR arrival. Additionally, CGZ doesn't much traffic other than training ops or locals, so there's not much issue much of the time. ATC will try to encourage IFR pilots to call the visual and simply enter the traffic pattern, thus avoiding the hold at TFD.

Only once was I flying there and a BO came in IFR (it was clear and a million), but refused to cancel. I was on CTAF, so I don't know what his exact clearence was, but this day the top of the stack was at 7,500, and he announced direct the VOR for the ILS at 8,000, so I suspect ATC was watching the situation down there and brought him in in such a way that he could meld with all of us. Of course, instead of simply working his way down the stack like the rest of us he tried to start the approach from 8,000 feet (the published top of the approach in the hold is 3,500) which put him diving for the slope from above an aircraft already established.

There's really no good way to intermix the VFR guys flying the stack with IFR traffic on vectors to final unless everybody talks a lot and plays nice. But since noone in the stack will likely be listening to approach, the onus really is on the IFR guy to give good warning that he's coming in. Most people will happily make room (or polietly tell the new plane that the top of the hold is at X,XXXfeet and you have to work your way down), but all told it's a big mess out in the area south of PHX, and can be fairly dangerous for locals who know the customs, let alone a happless transient who doesn't.

 

[AdamZ]

Yeah thats the scary part. Say some cherokee driver comes in at 4500 and the top of the stack is at 7500. He is from Ohio and has not a clue what the local custom is b/c its not published anywhere.

 

[Teller1900]

Yeah thats the scary part. Say some cherokee driver comes in at 4500 and the top of the stack is at 7500. He is from Ohio and has not a clue what the local custom is b/c its not published anywhere.

Hopefully either a)someone in the stack will tell him quickly that the hold is up to 7,500 right now and encourage him to climb up to 8,000 and join the party or b) he'll be able to proceed visually to the airport, fly the pattern, and land without having to worry about TFD.

I suspect the later is how it works most of the time. There's rarely any clouds in this area, and when there are they're usually way above the hold, so I think most IFR guys just call the visual.

With only one plane flying the approach at a time, it's easy enough for the practice IFR traffic to meld with VFR traffic in the pattern. It's the VFR guys in the stack versus an IFR guy who wants the full procedure that could become an issue. And really the only solution is for the pilots involved to talk talk talk and coordinate amongst themselves. It's published plenty locally, but beyond that...the sectional says "Intensive student training between Casa Grande Arpt and Stanfield VORTAC up to 7,500ft." I don't remember if the low enroute for the area has a similar note, but this whole area is a cluster that could be downright scary if you don't know the area.

 

[slowjoe]

OK, so I went out and got some hood time with a multi 1,000s of hour friend of mine. We talked to some of the instructors that were around. The distilled version of what they told me:

Let's assume that all the traffic is VFR and everyone is just out there flying under the hood or practicing IFR holds and approaches. And we've got planes stacked up from 3,500 (the start of the ILS to CGZ) to 6,000. Everyone holds at their altitude until the plane at 3,500 reports inbound to CGZ or otherwise clears 3,500. Once that call is made everyone drops 500ft to the next lowest level. If the traffic at 3,500 is just holding and holding and holding, everyone above remains stacked up and lots of people get on the radio and start screaming.

Therein lies the problem. TFD shares the frequency with KCGZ so I hear them all the time. I'd say only about half the time do pilots report that they've left the stack at 3,500. Most of the time you'll hear the call that they're Roxie inbound or some other position report. They really should report when they're crossing over the VOR and heading inbound on the approach, not a minute or two later.

At any rate, when I entered the stack today there was one aircraft at 3,500. I entered at 4,000, parallel entry. When I crossed the VOR I made a call and asked about the traffic at 3,500. He was flying the 10nm DME arc and we decided to swap altitudes. I continued on a descending procedure turn inbound at 3,500ft, he climbed to the 4,000ft / 10nm DME arc and away we went. It was all pretty smooth. The only other traffic was a couple of transients at 6,500 and 7,500.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm finding this interesting. We don't have near the amount of training activity as the PHX area but with multiple flight schools at KBJC, KAPA and KFTG, the DEN area gets plety of practice approaches. The SOP around here is that ATC participates and, although I'm sure its been done, I've never come across folks doing practice approaches under VFR under the Class B without coordination with ATC.

Sounds scary but the system being described obviously works. But I wonder whether the reason for doing it is, in part, that there is so much training activity that ATC simply can't be bothered.

 

[slowjoe]

I got forwarded this link: http://www.aftw.org/cgz_practice_approaches.PDF The Arizona Flight Training Workgroup (http://www.aftw.org) has a document on practicing over TFD. And lots of other stuff, interesting website if anyone wants to see what learning to fly is like in Phoenix.

 

[Teller1900]

I'm finding this interesting. We don't have near the amount of training activity as the PHX area but with multiple flight schools at KBJC, KAPA and KFTG, the DEN area gets plety of practice approaches. The SOP around here is that ATC participates and, although I'm sure its been done, I've never come across folks doing practice approaches under VFR under the Class B without coordination with ATC.

Sounds scary but the system being described obviously works. But I wonder whether the reason for doing it is, in part, that there is so much training activity that ATC simply can't be bothered.

CGZ is the closest airport outside the Bravo with an ILS (and VOR and GPS approach) available. ATC doesn't get involved because a)it's outside their space and they're way too busy to care, and b) most pilots go there so they can get a lot of approaches in without being slowed down or turned away by ATC. It's barely organized chaos, that's for sure! It becomes a real adventure when the guys from PanAm academy in Prescott come down.

 

[Teller1900]

OK, so I went out and got some hood time with a multi 1,000s of hour friend of mine. We talked to some of the instructors that were around. The distilled version of what they told me:

Let's assume that all the traffic is VFR and everyone is just out there flying under the hood or practicing IFR holds and approaches. And we've got planes stacked up from 3,500 (the start of the ILS to CGZ) to 6,000. Everyone holds at their altitude until the plane at 3,500 reports inbound to CGZ or otherwise clears 3,500. Once that call is made everyone drops 500ft to the next lowest level. If the traffic at 3,500 is just holding and holding and holding, everyone above remains stacked up and lots of people get on the radio and start screaming.

Therein lies the problem. TFD shares the frequency with KCGZ so I hear them all the time. I'd say only about half the time do pilots report that they've left the stack at 3,500. Most of the time you'll hear the call that they're Roxie inbound or some other position report. They really should report when they're crossing over the VOR and heading inbound on the approach, not a minute or two later.

I aggree. Just make your calls whenever you feel it's appropriate, and maybe folks will start to pick up on how you do it.

At any rate, when I entered the stack today there was one aircraft at 3,500. I entered at 4,000, parallel entry. When I crossed the VOR I made a call and asked about the traffic at 3,500. He was flying the 10nm DME arc and we decided to swap altitudes. I continued on a descending procedure turn inbound at 3,500ft, he climbed to the 4,000ft / 10nm DME arc and away we went. It was all pretty smooth. The only other traffic was a couple of transients at 6,500 and 7,500.

Sounds like a fun time! I'd love to see some pictures from flying around there if you have them, I really miss flying down there.

 

[midlifeflyer]

CGZ is the closest airport outside the Bravo with an ILS (and VOR and GPS approach) available. ATC doesn't get involved because a)it's outside their space and they're way too busy to care, and b) most pilots go there so they can get a lot of approaches in without being slowed down or turned away by ATC. It's barely organized chaos, that's for sure! It becomes a real adventure when the guys from PanAm academy in Prescott come down.

Thanks for the explanation. I took a look at the chart and it makes sense. Who handles IFR traffic once out of the Brave/Mode C area near CHZ? Is it Approach or Center at that point?

 

[roncachamp]

CGZ is the closest airport outside the Bravo with an ILS (and VOR and GPS approach) available. ATC doesn't get involved because a)it's outside their space and they're way too busy to care,....

Outside "their space"? "Their" meaning ATC? To be outside of "their space" could then only mean uncontrolled airspace. But the airspace in question is Class E airspace. ATC does not get involved because ATC has no responsibility or authority over VFR aircraft in Class E airspace.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Outside "their space"? "Their" meaning ATC? To be outside of "their space" could then only mean uncontrolled airspace. But the airspace in question is Class E airspace. ATC does not get involved because ATC has no responsibility or authority over VFR aircraft in Class E airspace.

Huh? What did all that have to do with an explanation about whether PHX TRACON as opposed to some other ATC facility handles traffic in a sector outside the Bravo? (at least that's what I think he was referring to based on my question)

 

[roncachamp]

Huh? What did all that have to do with an explanation about whether PHX TRACON as opposed to some other ATC facility handles traffic in a sector outside the Bravo?

Nothing.

(at least that's what I think he was referring to based on my question)

You've lost track of the messages. The post I responded to was by teller1900, not by you.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Nothing.

You've lost track of the messages. The post I responded to was by teller1900, not by you.

I think you've lost track. He was responding to a question from me, and should probably be read in that context. It's kind of a funny thing people sometimes do.

 

[roncachamp]

I think you've lost track. He was responding to a question from me, and should probably be read in that context. It's kind of a funny thing people sometimes do.

Nope, it's definitely you that has lost track. Yes, he was responding to a post by you, but not the post in which you asked, "Who handles IFR traffic once out of the Brave/Mode C area near CHZ? Is it Approach or Center at that point?" I believe a review of the thread will clear this up for you.

 

[poadeleted20]

This is an instructor issue, not one for the trainee to solve. In the "real world" (i.e., when operating under IFR), the controller will tell you when to make each step down, and when to commence the approach. If you're flying the approach for training under VFR, then the instructor should be acting as ATC and giving you the calls ATC would give you if you were operating IFR. The instructor is also looking outside for other traffic, and if possible, should be obtaining from ATC whatever coordination or service is possible to avoid conflicts with any IFR or other VFR traffic.

So, if your instructor clears you into the hold at 6500 feet, and the IAF altitude is published as 3000 feet, it's up to the instructor to tell you when to descend to each altitude down through 3000 feet and "clear" you for the approach. You shouldn't have to figure this out for yourself.

 

[JoePilot]

What a strange situation, Ive never encountered anything like that, and most of my time training and instructing was in Central and South Florida, pretty congested areas. But then again, a lot of IFR traffic in the system there, so I just had my students practice holds at a fix somewhere or just made up holds, and put them in the system when I wanted to shoot approaches into busy airports, helps with their radio skills too.