Holding pattern...did I set this up right?

[Melissa2983298]

I tried to solve this problem, and just wanted someone to check my work if possible? Thank you!

Let's say ATC told you: "Hold Southwest of the VOR on the 210 radial. Right turns with two minute legs. Maintain 4000 feet, expect clearance at 1550, time now is 1510".

You are on a heading of 270 at 3000 feet. The wind is 300 at 30 knots.


So I wrote the five Ts (my instructor told me to write them in a slightly different order though);

Time: 2 min legs

Turn: Right turns, heading of 225 (this heading since it would be a parallel entry, and to correct for wind, you add 15 degrees to the 210 outbound).

Throttle: Approach descent

Twist: Set OBS to 030 degrees (reciprocal of 210)

Is this correct so far?

Also, I have one last question; it was figured out that the outbound leg heading is 225, with a 15 degree crab to correct for wind. Doesn't that mean that even though the OBS is set to 030, you would fly a heading of 022 on the inbound leg to correct for wind? This would be because the inbound crab angle is half of the outbound crab angle.

Thank you VERY much for all of your help!

 

[BillTIZ]

Just looking at it quickly, it seems you have set it up correctly. However, somewhere in there you need to climb from 3000 to 4000 before selecting your holding throttle setting. The climb should be the first thing, you may still be climbing when you reach the fix and turn inbound.

As the entry appears to be parralle, the outbound turn to 225 for the 210 radial appears correct or a good guess. You should be able to monitor your position relative to the radial using the CDI. However the first turn to the left to turn inbound will have to be a lot more than a 15 degree cut into the wind, you need to correct back to the radial before reaching the holding fix where you will make a right turn.

Don't forget to start a watch when you first cross the fix outbound on the parralle.
Remember your 2 minute legs are on the inbound leg once established.

Does that sound correct Ron?

 

[Melissa2983298]

Just looking at it quickly, it seems you have set it up correctly. However, somewhere in there you need to climb from 3000 to 4000 before selecting your holding throttle setting. The climb should be the first thing, you may still be climbing when you reach the fix and turn inbound.

As the entry appears to be parralle, the outbound turn to 225 for the 210 radial appears correct or a good guess. You should be able to monitor your position relative to the radial using the CDI. However the first turn to the left to turn inbound will have to be a lot more than a 15 degree cut into the wind, you need to correct back to the radial before reaching the holding fix where you will make a right turn.

Don't forget to start a watch when you first cross the fix outbound on the parralle.
Remember your 2 minute legs are on the inbound leg once established.

Does that sound correct Ron?

Thank you very much for all of your help! I remember my instuctor talking about that first turn for parallel and teardrop entries; that in order to intercept the inbound radial with that kind of wind, fly 30 degrees to the left or right of the inbound heading (depending on the direction of the wind) to intercept the inbound radial in time! Thank you!

 

[poadeleted20]

I tried to solve this problem, and just wanted someone to check my work if possible? Thank you!

Let's say ATC told you: "Hold Southwest of the VOR on the 210 radial. Right turns with two minute legs. Maintain 4000 feet, expect clearance at 1550, time now is 1510".

You are on a heading of 270 at 3000 feet. The wind is 300 at 30 knots.

One point first -- ATC isn't going to give you an altitude change this way, and altitude is not normally part of a holding clearance, anyway. You would get a holding clearance of "Hold Southwest of the VOR on the 210 radial. Right turns with two minute legs. Expect further clearance 1550, time now 1510" and a separate "Climb and maintain 4000 feet."

So I wrote the five Ts (my instructor told me to write them in a slightly different order though);

Time: 2 min legs

Turn: Right turns, heading of 225 (this heading since it would be a parallel entry, and to correct for wind, you add 15 degrees to the 210 outbound).

Throttle: Approach descent

Twist: Set OBS to 030 degrees (reciprocal of 210)

Is this correct so far?

Your instructor apparently uses the 5T's differently than we teach them at PIC. We teach them as a series of steps to be executed at an action point like crossing the holding fix or reaching the end of the outbound leg. The way we'd use them for a hold like this would be:

Initial arrival at the fix:
Turn to the entry heading
Time - start the clock
Twist the CDI o the inbound course (030)
Throttle - reduce to holding speed if not already done
Talk - report entering the hold

End of the outbound leg:
Turn to intercept the inbound leg
Time - restart the clock
Twist - check CDI on correct course
Throttle - already done
Talk - already done

Crossing holding fix:
Turn to the outbound heading
Time - start the clock
Twist - check CDI on correct course
Throttle - already done
Talk - already done

Note that we don't do anything but turn in the turn, so the time step is always delayed until we roll out of the turn.

Selection of the entry and outbound headings would be done independently as part of drawing the hold prior to arrival at the fix. To draw this hold, we'd teach you to do it in the following order:

1. Draw the fix
2. Put your pencil southwest of the fix
3. Draw the inbound course to the fix with an arrow to the fix
4. Draw the right turn to the outbound
5. Draw the outbound leg with an arrow pointing outbound
6. Draw the inbound turn back to the inbound leg
7. Put the outbound heading and inbound course next to those legs
8. Draw the arrival course to the fix
9. Select the appropriate entry (which is usually pretty obvious once you draw this much)
10. Draw the entry leg
11. Determine and label the entry heading

Note: That all looks more complicated on paper than it actually is to do.

Also, I have one last question; it was figured out that the outbound leg heading is 225, with a 15 degree crab to correct for wind.

That won't be enough. Assuming you're flying 120 knots, you'd need a 15 degree wind correction angle (WCA) to exactly compensate for a 30 knot crosswind component. Therefore, on the inbound leg, you'd need a heading of 015 to compensate for the drift. Further, there's nothing you can do about drift in a turn without using nonstandard and (half the time) excessive) bank angles. Therefore, on the outbound leg, you have to compensate not only for the drift on the outbound leg, but also for the uncorrectable drift in the outbound and inbound turns.

You (normally) have one minute outbound to correct for three minutes of drift (one minute in the outbound turn, one minute on the outbound leg, and one minute on the inbound turn). For that reason, you must (normally) triple the drift angle on the outbound leg. With this wind, that would be a 45 degree WCA on the outbound leg, or a heading of 255. Of course, with your nonstandard two minute legs, you'd only need to double the WCA (two minutes of correction for four minutes of drift -- one in the outbound turn, two on the outbound leg, one on the inbound turn) to 30 degrees and fly an outbound leg of 240.

Doesn't that mean that even though the OBS is set to 030, you would fly a heading of 022 on the inbound leg to correct for wind? This would be because the inbound crab angle is half of the outbound crab angle.

As noted above, unless you're flying 240 knots, you're going to need 15 degrees WCA on the inbound leg, and (with nonstandard two minute legs) double that (or 30 degrees) on the outbound.

 

[Jaybird180]

Ron,

You lost me here:
Crossing holding fix:
Turn to the outbound heading
Time - start the clock
Twist - check CDI on correct course
Throttle - already done
Talk - already done

If on the out bound leg, how can you reliably use the CDI for course guidance? Isn't it a DR course using the HI as reference and closing any variation with each successive lap? I got this idea from one of the youtube school videos (I'll get the reference if this is bad info that needs debunk).

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron,

You lost me here:
Crossing holding fix:
Turn to the outbound heading
Time - start the clock
Twist - check CDI on correct course
Throttle - already done
Talk - already done

If on the out bound leg, how can you reliably use the CDI for course guidance?

I said "check CDI on correct course", not "track CDI". You check it to make sure it's properly set to the correct course, but that's all -- you still fly the heading. However, setting the CDI to the desired course on each leg is critical if you're flying a single-VOR hold at an intersection (where you have to twist the inbound course once established on the outbound leg, and twist the cross-radial once established on the inbound leg), so you get in the habit of checking it each time even if you don't actually have to reset it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Your instructor apparently uses the 5T's differently than we teach them at PIC. We teach them as a series of steps to be executed at an action point like crossing the holding fix or reaching the end of the outbound leg.

Agree. Sounds like the expansion of the use of the T's to cover more than it's really designed to. That's the trouble with mnemonics, even one of the very, very few good training ones.

(Actually, I teach them as a series of steps to be considered before reaching the action point, but I'm sure that's really only a semantic difference.)

 

[Jaybird180]

I said "check CDI on correct course", not "track CDI". You check it to make sure it's properly set to the correct course, but that's all -- you still fly the heading. However, setting the CDI to the desired course on each leg is critical if you're flying a single-VOR hold at an intersection (where you have to twist the inbound course once established on the outbound leg, and twist the cross-radial once established on the inbound leg), so you get in the habit of checking it each time even if you don't actually have to reset it.

Hmmmm....if a trainee has dual VORs do you train him in the use of single VOR operations (failed equipment)?

 

[poadeleted20]

Hmmmm....if a trainee has dual VORs do you train him in the use of single VOR operations (failed equipment)?

Absolutely. And it's a good thing my instrument instructor did that, too, because about 20 minutes into my IR checkride, I was doing a partial-panel, single-radio intersection hold. Needless to say, the rest of the ride was easy.

 

[Melissa2983298]

Thank you very much for all of your help everyone! As you can tell, I'm a new IFR student and am trying to understand everything perfectly, so I really do appreciate all of the help and explanations!

 

[bobmrg]

Thank you very much for all of your help everyone! As you can tell, I'm a new IFR student and am trying to understand everything perfectly, so I really do appreciate all of the help and explanations!

If you understand everything perfectly you will be unique in the aviation community.

Bob Gardner

 

[somorris]

If you understand everything perfectly you will be unique in the aviation community.

I think you got that right, Bob! .

Question for Cap'n Ron:

When I fly holds, I attempt to compensate for the cross wind component by say using half standard rate (or less) turns when turning into the wind and standard rate when turning away from the wind. When I was learning, this is the method I was taught (or figured out for myself -- can't remember which). It sounds like you make up for the turns on the outbound leg. Correct? Comments? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[poadeleted20]

When I fly holds, I attempt to compensate for the cross wind component by say using half standard rate (or less) turns when turning into the wind and standard rate when turning away from the wind. When I was learning, this is the method I was taught (or figured out for myself -- can't remember which). It sounds like you make up for the turns on the outbound leg. Correct? Comments? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

The FAA doesn't discuss this as a method of wind correction, and I agree with their omission. This method can in theory work if the wind is coming from the side toward which you are turning, and the wind isn't too strong, but it won't help you if the wind is coming from behind you in the turn (you can't increase bank angle very much and stay within instrument standards of max intentional 30 bank normally or 25 in transport aircraft), or if the wind is too strong. Further, it's pretty hard to compute the exact turn rate needed for any given airspeed and crosswind component. All things considered, I'll stick with the standard rate turns and triple-WCA correction on the outbound leg

The only time I use a reduced turn rate as part of holding is when I'm doing a direct entry from a near-perpendicular direction from the nonholding side. If you use standard rate, you'll end up heading outbound only half the normal distance from the inbound courseline, and will overshoot the inbound turn. However, with my Garmin 530, the unit is smart enough to know this will happen, and it compensates by delaying the start of the turn until you're halfway across the holding pattern so a standard rate turn will drop you right where you want to be flying the outbound leg -- and following those commands is a lot easier than trying to work it out in my head. But still I save that half-standard trick for when I'm flying something with a less capable nav system.

 

[somorris]

Thanks Ron. I will try your method next time out.