hmm... guess I won't be flying anymore

[sbonek]

I don't believe rudder misuse is going to cause the main to come off the ground in a 172 unless you are well into a groundloop and basically skidding sideways.

..snip..

You taxi at 30 knots? Get in the habit of stopping on the runway before touching the flap control. Then turn off. Then raise the flaps.

Another possibility is that you simply are rushing, trying to turn the airplane into a ground vehicle when it has too much airspeed to be a good ground vehicle.

Taildragger experience would help with this. But even without it, I think you have simply developed a bad habit on rollout that you stifle when you're with an instructor but that comes out when you're alone.

all good points. The 20-30 knots I referenced was because I had touched down, but wasn't at a safe speed to turn off the runway... so I wasn't on the brakes, but was letting the a/c slow down to a safe taxi speed.

Rushing could be, but I go back to if the wind was still coming from 220-230, would this have happened?

 

[Skip Miller]

If you weren't almost sideways on the runway, I'd say the cause of a main coming up is more likely aileron related.

Ken, I think you are on to something here. With the nose going left, inertial forces of the resulting ground skid would lift the left main. The OP states the right main is coming up. It is either aileron or a tailwind gust from hell....

-Skip

 

[ScottM]

Ken, I think you are on to something here. With the nose going left, inertial forces of the resulting ground skid would lift the left main. The OP states the right main is coming up. It is either aileron or a tailwind gust from hell....

-Skip

The more I read I am wondering if the OP is using proper wind correction techniques during taxiing. Some people do forget to fly all the way to the parking spot. I have observed that in CFIs as well as new pilots.

 

[sbonek]

Ken, I think you are on to something here. With the nose going left, inertial forces of the resulting ground skid would lift the left main. The OP states the right main is coming up. It is either aileron or a tailwind gust from hell....

-Skip

so I'm runway 25, the wind is coming from 220 - 230, if the a/c weather vanes, wouldn't it the left main come off the ground?

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm sorry I'm not closer to Indiana -- I'd like to fly with you and see what's going on.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Steve: I'd echo what Chris Jones and Ken Ibold said. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a fundamental misunderstanding with something your primary instructor taught you (or didn't teach you!) and the law of primacy is bringing it back.

I have a suggestion for a CFI: Rick Durden. As both an aviation lawyer and CFI, he's done a LOT of 709-prep instructing and can probably figure out what's going on. And, he's a good guy as well. PM me and I'll try to find his e-mail address. (Oh, and he's only about a 4 1/2 hour drive from you...)

 

[Skip Miller]

so I'm runway 25, the wind is coming from 220 - 230, if the a/c weather vanes, wouldn't it the left main come off the ground?

Yes, it would. But here is what you said (emphasis added):

Yesterday, similiar situation, however there was a minimal x-wind component this time. Wind was 220-230 at 4-7 and I was landing runway 25. After touchdown, as I was transition into taxi-off-the-runway mode, basically right before I raised the flaps, the nose again went left, right main came off the ground, prop hit a light this time and not the runway and off into the grass.

-Skip

 

[Steve]

An F-18 pilot at the Slidell, LA airshow a couple of weekends ago did practically the same thing trying to make a turnoff at too fast a forward speed. Heeled it over and did some wing tip damage as told to me by an authoritative source.

Live and learn.

Grow old and forget it all.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Find a hershey bar wing Cherokee. Once planted on the runway, they tend to stay that way

 

[flyer]

X- wind landings in a 172 can be tricky. Ive been blown off the edge of the runway twice in my 172, with 10 kt x winds. Luckily there was no damage on my plane, just went into the grass. So now I do not fly if the x winds are over 7-8 kts.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

X- wind landings in a 172 can be tricky. Ive been blown off the edge of the runway twice in my 172, with 10 kt x winds. Luckily there was no damage on my plane, just went into the grass. So now I do not fly if the x winds are over 7-8 kts.

How wide was/were the runway(s)? Were the winds gusting, or steady?

 

[sbonek]

Yes, it would. But here is what you said (emphasis added):

-Skip

Skip - I'm still not getting what you are saying. You said it might have been lack of aileron, which I don't disagree with, but unless the wind shifted to the 270 - 280, then I don't think the weather vane would be the cause right?

If the right main came off, then it seems like the wind would need to be from the right side of the runway, but the windsock and the awos were telling me the wind was coming from the left side of the runway.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If the right main came off, then it seems like the wind would need to be from the right side of the runway, but the windsock and the awos were telling me the wind was coming from the left side of the runway.

Unless there was a gust from the left and you overcompensated... But I'd think that if you really were down to 25-30 knots there wouldn't be enough aileron authority to lift a main, you'd have needed some help from the wind.

 

[flyer]

How wide was/were the runway(s)? Were the winds gusting, or steady?

The winds were gusty thst day, I think the winds were gusting to 10 kts that day. The runway was about 50 ft wide.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The winds were gusty thst day, I think the winds were gusting to 10 kts that day. The runway was about 50 ft wide.

I'm just trying hard to figure out how that could happen... I must be missing something. If the wind suddenly increased by 10 knots and it was a direct crosswind, that's a tad less than 17 feet per second, which would give you a good 1.5 seconds from centerline to edge to make a correction, go around, etc.



A 172 is a fine airplane for crosswinds, the worst wind I've ever landed in (25G31) was in a 172.

 

[flyer]

I'm just trying hard to figure out how that could happen... I must be missing something. If the wind suddenly increased by 10 knots and it was a direct crosswind, that's a tad less than 17 feet per second, which would give you a good 1.5 seconds from centerline to edge to make a correction, go around, etc.



A 172 is a fine airplane for crosswinds, the worst wind I've ever landed in (25G31) was in a 172.

It happened twice that way. Wow landing in 25G31 is just insane in a 172. I try to exercise better judgement now when i comes to winds. A friend of mine scraped his wing tip on his 172 landing in a 12 kts gusty x wind, so now he is more cautious too.

 

[ice_burg]

Some of you may know, but I am in the very early stages of training. I was watching the King Schools DVDs just last night and they mentioned specifically in the video that high wing nose wheel planes are THE most susceptible to quartering tail winds especially IF the controls are not set right...They showed a pic of Cessna at that time and immediately thought about this thread...Just wanted to throw that in. It may have been a combination of issues that culminated into the two incidents of the OP.

 

[jason]

It happened twice that way. Wow landing in 25G31 is just insane in a 172. I try to exercise better judgement now when i comes to winds. A friend of mine scraped his wing tip on his 172 landing in a 12 kts gusty x wind, so now he is more cautious too.

It's an awful lot (more than I'd be comfortable with), but I'm not sure that I'd call it "insane". I've landed a 172 in 18G21 without any worries. You just set it down one main at a time and by the time you lose aileron authority it should be fully deflected into the wind. Then you need to make sure that you keep your control surfaces in the correct position while taxiing. "Climb into the wind" and "dive away from the wind". That's how I remember it.

Steve, I agree with Chip Sylverne. A good ol' hershey bar wing Cherokee might be a good fit. When they decide to stop flying, ain't nothing gonna to get those wheels off the ground again except takeoff power.

 

[Skip Miller]

Skip - I'm still not getting what you are saying. You said it might have been lack of aileron, which I don't disagree with, but unless the wind shifted to the 270 - 280, then I don't think the weather vane would be the cause right?

Ignore the wind for a moment. All I was saying is that if your nose moves quickly to the left in any vehicle, the load on the left side tires decreases and the load on the right side tires increases. This would obviously tend to decrease the probability of the right side lifting up.

-Skip

 

[steingar]

Sounds like a sufficiently specific problem to not warrant abandonment. II'm reminded of a story I read concerning an older gentleman who purchased a Mooney. On his first landing he failed to lower the gear and had a gear-up. The insurance paid for all the necessary work, and some time later he took it for its second flight, which also ended in a gear up. One of the first people out to the airplane heard him mutter "this happens every time!".

 

[t0r0nad0]

Ignore the wind for a moment. All I was saying is that if your nose moves quickly to the left in any vehicle, the load on the left side tires decreases and the load on the right side tires increases. This would obviously tend to decrease the probability of the right side lifting up.

-Skip

I have to admit, I'm having problems wrapping my head around this too...

You said that the nose veered left and the right main came up at about 25-30 kts. Like Skip said, if any vehicle jerks nose left, the greater load (from the centrifugal force) would be on the right-hand side of the vehicle. So since the right mains came up, that leads me to think that there may have been a sudden wind gust from the right. But that can't be the case, because a wind gust from the right would push the tail left, thus causing the nose to veer right.

Now, a sudden veering to the left would cause the right wing to travel faster, thus creating more lift, and if the aileron were fully deflected to the left (as it would be in a x-wind landing of this nature), I guess that there might be enough lift on that right wing to lift a main. Another possible explanation is if the right side lifted up first, e.g. a right quartering tailwind, and you reacted by hitting the brakes. Of course, only the left tire is in contact with the pavement at this time, so the braking action on that left wheel overcame the weather-vane effect from the wind and caused you to veer left.

I'm just scratching my head and trying to talk this out so it makes sense - I'm not sure how plausible these explanations really are...

 

[Cap'n Jack]

It happened twice that way. Wow landing in 25G31 is just insane in a 172. I try to exercise better judgement now when i comes to winds. A friend of mine scraped his wing tip on his 172 landing in a 12 kts gusty x wind, so now he is more cautious too.

It's an awful lot (more than I'd be comfortable with), but I'm not sure that I'd call it "insane". I've landed a 172 in 18G21 without any worries. You just set it down one main at a time and by the time you lose aileron authority it should be fully deflected into the wind. Then you need to make sure that you keep your control surfaces in the correct position while taxiing. "Climb into the wind" and "dive away from the wind". That's how I remember it.

I thought 25G31 was just a Nebraska zephyr? It can be done- I got signed off as a student for solo to the full demonstrated xwind on a C172 after we pricticed in similar conditions. I doubt I could do it now but it's confidence boost to know I did it once. It was demonstrated during this lesson that no flap landings are sometimes better since they give more control authority due to the higher air speed.

 

[Baron 55]

There are numerous ways to deal with this and continue to fly, as has already been posted and I won't go over it again and bore everyone. But I'll tell you about a friend of mine who I taught to fly about twenty yr. ago. He has a really nice complex retract' and because of his work schedule [brutal], only gets to fly a couple times a month, if that, on average. About 90% of the time, he only flies it when I go along. He does all the flying, I have him make all the decisions, etc., and he does fine. However, he never really feels completely rust-free and simply goes with me. For a while, I didn't even charge him [as a friend and former aircraft partner plus he does some stuff for me], then he realized he could write off some of the dual as a business expense [he's a tax expert], and we worked out some money for me. This sort of thing isn't for everyone, as he only flies when I am available. In our case, it doesn't matter because he is the only person in his family who likes to fly and he does it as a hobby. I've had four clients over the yr. who would only fly with me [or some other pilot] along due to some experience with crosswinds or WX or etc. which scared them enough or busted their confidence. I had a full-time job for 7 yr. flying a Bonanza with the owner who was commercial/inst. rated but didn't want to go over the mntns or at night or IMC without someone along and eventually felt so much more comfortable and had so much more confidence with me along, she hired me to be there all the time. She did much of the flying, I did plenty myself when business concerns had her mind on some meeting we were going to or whatever or sometimes she'd get there to the plane and tell me she was just tired and it was me flying that day. So, there are many accomplished pilots who simply feel better with someone along. Think about it. Plus, there are many pilots who would go along any time, no pay...if you feel they add to the experience level you yourself have.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It happened twice that way. Wow landing in 25G31 is just insane in a 172. I try to exercise better judgement now when i comes to winds. A friend of mine scraped his wing tip on his 172 landing in a 12 kts gusty x wind, so now he is more cautious too.

Mike, let me preface this by saying that the "you's" below are ambiguous and not directed at you specifically. I sincerely hope that you, your friend, and Steve all continue flying.

It's not bad judgement if you can do it - And the plane certainly is more than capable. I wouldn't go much higher, but the plane will do it if the pilot tells the plane the right things to do. It's really not difficult - You do the same things as you do with a 5-knot wind, you just do them more. Bad judgement is when you're not properly handling the airplane on approach and you elect to land rather than going around (unless you're on your last gallon of fuel, which means even worse judgement) and you bend an airplane.

I don't have a specific number for a personal minimum on this sort of thing - It depends on the rest of the situation. 25G31 is high, but the gust factor is relatively low. OTOH, when I'd listened to the ATIS and heard OK winds but when a gust front arrived and controller said "Winds now at MSN are xxx at 19G47"... Well, that's a no-brainer. I'm outta here!

I really should have gone flying yesterday. Winds were 19020G29, so starting on 21 and transitioning to 14 would have made for a great practice opportunity. Oh well.

And scraping the wingtip on a HIGH wing??? Looking at the dimensions of a Cessna 172, you'd need around a 25-degree bank. If you're banking 25 degrees in the flare, it means one of two things: If the upwind wingtip hit, they were overcorrecting (someone smarter than I will have to figure out the exact crosswind velocity needed to need a 25-degree wind correction, but it's significant!) If the downwind wingtip hit, they weren't correcting.

I feel like a jerk for saying all this, but somebody's gotta (there have been many in FlashChat). If you can't handle a 10-knot crosswind, you need to go get some dual. Personal minimums can be less than that if you want, but you should be able to handle more than your personal minimums because as we all know, weather does funny things. And frankly, 10 knots is not very much wind, and the airplane is most certainly capable of it. One person here has even done a 45-knot crosswind in a castering-nosewheel airplane.

So please... If you can't handle a 15-knot crosswind, please get some dual until you can. You don't have to be comfortable with it, you don't have to do it on your own, but please make sure that if you get in a pickle that you are at least capable of doing it. Bent airplanes raise everyone's insurance rates and allow the media yet another opportunity to sensationalize these "dangerous little planes."

 

[gprellwitz]

I really should have gone flying yesterday. Winds were 19020G29, so starting on 21 and transitioning to 14 would have made for a great practice opportunity. Oh well.

I should have been out flying too. Here they were 17027G33. A little stronger, but less gust factor. OTOH, I was operating on 3 hours of sleep. Wasn't going to try it!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Your GPS and the windsock were indicating possible low level windshear conditrions, right? Throw in possibly turning to taxi at a bit too high of speed combined with possibly slightly slower than required reflexes and there doesn't seem to be too much mystery to a ground incident.

You wanted IR, so why not do that dual, without any solo, and you may not even need renters insurance at some places. That IR training would then also give you more than enough to qualify to fly a 709. By then it's fall or next year and solo rental's an option again.

 

[Henning]

It really sucks because I do still love flying, but I'm having a hard time justifying to myself that I was meant to fly. Maybe somebody is telling me something and that I should quit before anybody gets seriously hurt.

It's all good, listen to that voice, it's trying to keep you alive. As you put it, some people aren't meant to fly. Lots of good passtimes out there. You did the flying thing, from your avatar I take it you have children. Listen, and be around to watch them grow up.

 

[Henning]

For what it's worth, maybe rather than withdraw completely if you're concerned about increased cost of the kind of flying you've been doing, you should change gears. Think "learning", "fun" and "cheap"... like gliders or ultralights, something new that might help boost your confidence in your basic skills.
You owe it to yourself to try to fix this problem, instead of giving up.

I'm not going to presume that this is the guys problem, but there are people who just don't have a "sense" for their state of energy, and this isn't really a problem that can be "fixed". Not everybody is meant to be an equipment operator. To do it well, you have to have an innate sense of your state of energy. If you don't, accidents happen and people die.

 

[Henning]

Steve if you really LOVE Flying stay with it.

Loving something is not exactly a ringing endorsement to keep doing it. Flying is inherently hazardous, like heroin, both of which can bring about euphoria, and both of which will leave you stone cold dead for a miscalculation. He's on his second warning... he has a small child... I personally would prefer not to see a "three strikes and you're out" situation. Already buried too many friends....

 

[bbchien]

Wow What a thread.
I have to see what's happening to figure this out......

 

[sba55]

Something similar (I think, if I understand this correctly) almost happened to me a few years ago.

I was landing a very heavy 172 (at max gross) in fairly calm winds. The landing itself was very nice and everything was fine for the first 8 seconds or so. As the airplane slowed, it suddenly and violently veered left. I don't know if one of the mains actually came off the ground, but it's entirely possible. Somehow, I was able to stop it before anything else happened, but it definitely was scary and I still don't really know what happened. The CG was all the way aft on that landing.

Not very helpful, but I'd also like to know what happened.

Steve, don't give up. We've all made mistakes that could have lead to an accident if another factor had come into play. Get some dual from a good CFI, as others here have said.

-Felix

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Something similar (I think, if I understand this correctly) almost happened to me a few years ago.

I was landing a very heavy 172 (at max gross) in fairly calm winds. The landing itself was very nice and everything was fine for the first 8 seconds or so. As the airplane slowed, it suddenly and violently veered left. I don't know if one of the mains actually came off the ground, but it's entirely possible. Somehow, I was able to stop it before anything else happened, but it definitely was scary and I still don't really know what happened. The CG was all the way aft on that landing.

Weird! I wonder if there's something in the nose gear that needs to be maintained better or something?

 

[sba55]

Weird! I wonder if there's something in the nose gear that needs to be maintained better or something?

Possibly. I remember the sequence that led up to my almost-accident very clearly.

I wonder if you would experience this if you held the nose wheel off the ground for an unusual amount of time and you inadvertently had some left rudder in when it touched the ground. Since my landing happened with a very aft CG, I suppose it's possible that that's what happened. Maybe it's something similar here?

-Felix

 

[jesse]

I've never had a Cessna 172 do anything funny to me in the wind--and I've flown them in some pretty heavy wind.

If you're having trouble keeping a 172 on the runway with wind I suggest you learn to fly a tail dragger. The big thing is knowing how to correct a problem before it becomes a big problem. The first time you try and plop down a tailwheel on a hard surface runway with a crosswind you'll learn what unstable is like. Eventually you don't even notice it anymore--and it is something you'll never forget. I can't keep my feet still on a landing for the life of me. I'm constantly making hundreds of tiny corrections.

 

[sba55]

I've never had a Cessna 172 do anything funny to me in the wind--and I've flown them in some pretty heavy wind.

If you're having trouble keeping a 172 on the runway with wind I suggest you learn to fly a tail dragger. The big thing is knowing how to correct a problem before it becomes a big problem. The first time you try and plop down a tailwheel on a hard surface runway with a crosswind you'll learn what unstable is like. Eventually you don't even notice it anymore--and it is something you'll never forget. I can't keep my feet still on a landing for the life of me. I'm constantly making hundreds of tiny corrections.

That's good advice.

Or, you could buy a Bonanza, in which case you won't have to worry about making a good landing or about pretty much any cross wind. Seriously, it makes 25G35 look like a calm day, even if you're a bad rudder and stick pilot like me

-Felix

 

[jesse]

Or, you could buy a Bonanza

That sounds like the way to go. Hmm......

 

[jason]

That's good advice.

Or, you could buy a Bonanza, in which case you won't have to worry about making a good landing or about pretty much any cross wind. Seriously, it makes 25G35 look like a calm day, even if you're a bad rudder and stick pilot like me

-Felix

That sounds like the way to go. Hmm......

Thanks, Felix. Now I get to spend the first hour of the work day hearing all of the reasons why I need to own half of a Bonanza.

 

[sba55]

Thanks, Felix. Now I get to spend the first hour of the work day hearing all of the reasons why I need to own half of a Bonanza.

Sorry, I couldn't help it...

 

[tonycondon]

Thanks, Felix. Now I get to spend the first hour of the work day hearing all of the reasons why I need to own half of a Bonanza.

hey the older v tails can be had pretty cheap!

 

[flyer]

I feel like a jerk for saying all this, but somebody's gotta (there have been many in FlashChat). If you can't handle a 10-knot crosswind, you need to go get some dual. Personal minimums can be less than that if you want, but you should be able to handle more than your personal minimums because as we all know, weather does funny things. And frankly, 10 knots is not very much wind, and the airplane is most certainly capable of it. One person here has even done a 45-knot crosswind in a castering-nosewheel airplane."

I'm not saying I cant handle a 10 kt x wind. If given a choice I rather not deal with them. Anytime one deals with abnormal conditions it increases risk, and to me it just isn't worth it. There have been many occasions when I go to the airport and find direct x winds, I cancel the flight.