hmm... guess I won't be flying anymore

[sbonek]

this just stinks...

I haven't posted much lately because I've been trying to get my flying back up to speed after a landing incident late last year, now this...

had my 2nd incident today while landing, and this time I'm thinking it's going to cause me to stop flying. Unfortunately this time I think I did pretty much everything ok, but still got bit and twisted some metal.

Unless something miraculous happens, his time I'll probably decline the 709 "opportunity" and surrender my cert..

anyway, thanks for all the advice to everyone on the board in the short time I was here. I'll probably post a message in the classifieds to unload some of my aviation stuff (it's kinda like breaking up with a girlfriend and getting rid of everything that reminds you of her).

Steve

 

[TangoWhiskey]

this just stinks...

I haven't posted much lately because I've been trying to get my flying back up to speed after a landing incident late last year, now this...

had my 2nd incident today while landing, and this time I'm thinking it's going to cause me to stop flying. Unfortunately this time I think I did pretty much everything ok, but still got bit and twisted some metal.

Unless something miraculous happens, his time I'll probably decline the 709 "opportunity" and surrender my cert..

anyway, thanks for all the advice to everyone on the board in the short time I was here. I'll probably post a message in the classifieds to unload some of my aviation stuff (it's kinda like breaking up with a girlfriend and getting rid of everything that reminds you of her).

Steve

Sorry to hear it Steve... why will you stop? Lack of confidence? Just curious... is it something you think you can get past with some time?

 

[sbonek]

Sorry to hear it Steve... why will you stop? Lack of confidence? Just curious... is it something you think you can get past with some time?

a couple reasons. I'm still confident I can be a safe pilot, and I also believe I can land a plane pretty well, but the fact that I've had 2 similiar incidents when I felt I was doing a decent job messes with your head.

There is also the $$ aspect, if I continued, I'm sure my insurance would go up, plus I really doubt the FBO I rented from would continue to rent to me, and I can't blame them.

So if I really wanted to continue I would probably have to look at buying something decent to continue in, and then have to get a bunch of dual-time and then the 709, etc....

It really sucks because I do still love flying, but I'm having a hard time justifying to myself that I was meant to fly. Maybe somebody is telling me something and that I should quit before anybody gets seriously hurt.

 

[mikea]

Did you ever take some dual? I do it every year after the having the winter off.

 

[Shipoke]

Steve if you really LOVE Flying stay with it. Get some dual and fly with a safety pilot till you get your confidence back. I really dont think your the type to just quit and i think things will work out for you. But if you do quit, dont quit posting here we are all friends here and will stay that way.
Dave G.

 

[Diana]

I haven't posted much lately because I've been trying to get my flying back up to speed after a landing incident late last year, now this...

had my 2nd incident today while landing, and this time I'm thinking it's going to cause me to stop flying. Unfortunately this time I think I did pretty much everything ok, but still got bit and twisted some metal.

Gosh, Steve, I'm sorry to hear that you had another incident. That sure can shake one's confidence. I wonder if spending some time with a good CFI would help you sort things out? Maybe do some trouble-shooting to see if a different approach might be of some benefit?

 

[sbonek]

Did you ever take some dual? I do it every year after the having the winter off.

yep, following the 1st incident, I flew with 2 instructors to focus on x-wind landings and then also went ahead and got my flight review out of the way a month early, just to make sure I didn't pick up any bad habits.

Only then did I start flying solo again.

 

[sbonek]

Steve if you really LOVE Flying stay with it. Get some dual and fly with a safety pilot till you get your confidence back. I really dont think your the type to just quit and i think things will work out for you. But if you do quit, dont quit posting here we are all friends here and will stay that way.
Dave G.

thanks. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to go out and buy a plane to get the dual time, and there is only one FBO at the nearest airport. I could switch airports and hope to find another FBO that would rent to me, but I'm not sure if that is really a viable option.

 

[sbonek]

Gosh, Steve, I'm sorry to hear that you had another incident. That sure can shake one's confidence. I wonder if spending some time with a good CFI would help you sort things out? Maybe do some trouble-shooting to see if a different approach might be of some benefit?

Yep, did that after the 1st incident, and everything checked out well. The incident today, IMHO, would have bitten many pilots. I'm still not 100% sure what exactly happened, but if what I believe happened and there was a sudden and quick wind gust from behind at that critical stage of a landing where the a/c is slowing down to transition to taxi, there isn't much time to react...

 

[rottydaddy]

For what it's worth, maybe rather than withdraw completely if you're concerned about increased cost of the kind of flying you've been doing, you should change gears. Think "learning", "fun" and "cheap"... like gliders or ultralights, something new that might help boost your confidence in your basic skills.
Or maybe you should seek out a different FBO or school; maybe take some dual with a new instructor. I'm not suggesting you should "run away" from your current "reputation" (although people at your home drome may be more sympathetic than you think); just suggesting a change. If I were in your shoes I'd at least seek a CFI to help me address the specific problem, and see what he or she thinks I'm doing wrong. Probably a CFI I've never dealt with before. And the safety pilot idea is very sound.

I think if you hang it up now, you'll regret it, especially when you have to go through the trouble and expense to regain currency, once you start to get that itch to fly again (and I'll bet you a dollar you will).

Lots of pilots have mishaps, even two in a short period. And most of us, I'll bet, have come real close to doing some damage at one time or another, and escaped by sheer luck.
Landing is a very likely scenario for this phenomenon: the wind giveth, and the wind taketh away. Sometimes my landings have started out great and turned sour because of the unpredictable nature of wind, and sometimes it's the other way around. I know there have been a couple of times when I just got lucky.
Or maybe it's true: you are doing something wrong. Can't be too bad if you passed the checkride, and
I assume you have made some good landings in the past... so it's probably fix-able.
You owe it to yourself to try to fix this problem, instead of giving up.

 

[Steve]

Don't be too down on yourself.

Chuck Yeager bent a few planes on the ground, too, in and out of uniform.

 

[Diana]

For what it's worth, maybe rather than withdraw completely if you're concerned about increased cost of the kind of flying you've been doing, you should change gears. Think "learning", "fun" and "cheap"... like gliders or ultralights, something new that might help boost your confidence in your basic skills.
Or maybe you should seek out a different FBO or school; maybe take some dual with a new instructor. I'm not suggesting you should "run away" from your current "reputation" (although people at your home drome may be more sympathetic than you think); just suggesting a change. If I were in your shoes I'd at least seek a CFI to help me address the specific problem, and see what he or she thinks I'm doing wrong. Probably a CFI I've never dealt with before. And the safety pilot idea is very sound.

I think if you hang it up now, you'll regret it, especially when you have to go through the trouble and expense to regain currency, once you start to get that itch to fly again (and I'll bet you a dollar you will).

Lots of pilots have mishaps, even two in a short period. And most of us, I'll bet, have come real close to doing some damage at one time or another, and escaped by sheer luck.
Landing is a very likely scenario for this phenomenon: the wind giveth, and the wind taketh away. Sometimes my landings have started out great and turned sour because of the unpredictable nature of wind, and sometimes it's the other way around. I know there have been a couple of times when I just got lucky.
Or maybe it's true: you are doing something wrong. Can't be too bad if you passed the checkride, and
I assume you have made some good landings in the past... so it's probably fix-able.
You owe it to yourself to try to fix this problem, instead of giving up.

What he said!

Check it out with someone else before giving up...especially since you said you love flying.

 

[jesse]

**** happens. I've made mistakes on landing that if combined with a mistake I might have made on the previous day--would have resulted in some bent metal. There are two landings in my head that I probably won't ever forget--it's been a few years--but I was damn close to bending something.

 

[KennyFlys]

Steve, I'm sorry the airplane was bent. At least you're back on the ground safely. But, it would be a greater loss if you let this deny your passion for flying. If you can, start working with an well-experienced CFI. Work on your skills and find your weaknesses. You can do this. You just have to want it.

 

[wby0nder]

You gotta shop around for instructors. You gotta find one that understands your issues better than you do. One that has seen it all before and been there themselves. One that doesn't care about the money or anyones reputation. One that will not let you off the hook or give up on you. One that you can't scare with your worst attempts at landing. If they say "dude you really ought to take up golf instead" then consider giving up. Not one second before.

For many of us flying is so important and so precious that we build a lot of our identity around it. No matter how cool we appear on the outside we've got a lot of emotion and ego tied up in it. When we screw up it really takes us down a notch, knocks the wind out of us. If flying didn't matter so much little accidents wouldn't really be such a big deal. Fix the machine, try again. That's how aviation progressed. That's how many if not most of the legends did it. So you had a fender bender AGAIN? What a drag! Back in the saddle tomorrow and hey, what's for supper?

 

[Lawreston]

Yep, did that after the 1st incident, and everything checked out well. The incident today, IMHO, would have bitten many pilots. I'm still not 100% sure what exactly happened, but if what I believe happened and there was a sudden and quick wind gust from behind at that critical stage of a landing where the a/c is slowing down to transition to taxi, there isn't much time to react...

I know where you're coming from, Steve. My first approach on a right crosswind was high so I did a go-around. The 2nd approach, still on a right crosswind, was looking good as for speed. The flare was feeling good but I landed a bit long, thought I might have a problem and turned it into a Touch & Go. Ahh, good! Until I saw the tree in front of me Ouch! During the flare the wind had changed to a right-quartering tail wind and pushed me left of the runway. I'm back at it, and will finish the chase this summer. (And the plane looks much better, now) Best of luck to your decisions.

HR

 

[wby0nder]

And furthermore...

So, unless you are one of the rare PP ASEL pilots who fly thousands of hours all across the continent for decades in every kind of airplane you are just getting started. That rating is THE license to learn (next to the instructors ticket). Professional military aviators don't get their wings until they've done instruments, formation, aerobatics... There is so much more you can do. Keep learning. Forget what you've been flying and do something different for a while. How about a tailwheel endorsement? Aerobatic training. Glider rating. Multi-engine training, instrument training. If you are going to be flying with an instructor anyway you might as well learn something new. Chances are you will discover a new perspective on your current struggle in the process. If flying is so important to you treat it like a professional. Quitting is easy. You can always quit tomorrow.

 

[stingray]

Rather than stop just give yourself limits like they did when you were learning. Every PPL should have these and they're different for everyone. Start out with a crosswind component of 5 or less and work from there. Fly calm evenings and mornings. Heck that's the best time anyway. It's not that everyone can't be a pilot. It's, everyone can't be a pilot at all times. Those times are different for everyone, that's why there are fatalities, some pilots do not recognize that fact.

Dan

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If I may ask... What were the two incidents? Was there any similarity between the two? What damage was caused each time? What were the CFI's comments after you went up after the first one?

FWIW, I know a guy who's been on board (either PIC or SIC) for THREE nose gear collapses. Just 'cuz ya had two, doesn't mean much. And he's still flying.

 

[sbonek]

Thanks for all of the suggestions and comments on my situation. I still haven't decided what I'm going to do, but here is the current issue I'm dealing with.

Say I decide I'm not ready to give it up just yet and I want to do the 709 ride to keep my cert.... How? I guess I could go to another airport and see if they will allow me to rent from them, long enough to get the 709 ride done. But that would just be a short-term situation, I really want to fly at the airport 10 minutes from my home for a variety of reasons... so once I pass the 709, then what? Sit on my cert and not fly until I can purchase my own a/c, and then get dual-time to get me back to being current and safe?

Rather than stop just give yourself limits like they did when you were learning.

Actually, I was doing this. After the 1st incident, I've been even more selective on the days to fly, until I got my confidence all the way back. For example, yesterday the sky was clear and the winds were light (4-7 and nearly right down the runway).

If I may ask... What were the two incidents? Was there any similarity between the two? What damage was caused each time? What were the CFI's comments after you went up after the first one?

Yes, very similiar. The first time, right at touchdown, the nose went to the left and did what I've heard referred to as a wheelbarrow where one of the mains comes off (in this case the right main), the prop hit the runway and off into the grass. Prop had to be replaced, but I believe they tore down the engine and found it was ok. In prepartion for my first 709, I flew with 2 CFI's, and we worked on x-wind landings and I learned alot and we did some in pretty decent x-wind conditions (80-90 degrees off the runway at about 10-12 knots) and they were both satisfied with my performance. The 709 ride didn't go as well as I hoped, but the FAA guy wanted me to do 1 more session with a CFI, so I did my Flight Review since I was about a month from needing to do it anyway, and it went well.

Yesterday, similiar situation, however there was a minimal x-wind component this time. Wind was 220-230 at 4-7 and I was landing runway 25. After touchdown, as I was transition into taxi-off-the-runway mode, basically right before I raised the flaps, the nose again went left, right main came off the ground, prop hit a light this time and not the runway and off into the grass.

Initially, my only explanation was that the wind quickly changed direction and gusted from behind, but as I thought about it last night when I couldn't sleep, I got to thinking that this time it might actually have been a mechanical failure. As I replayed the trip around the pattern in my head, I remembered that as the a/c left the runway on my takeoff, the nose went to the right. I attributed this to me just holding too much right rudder. But it seems like if something weird happened with the rudder on touchdown, the right main would have come off the ground and I would have been along for the ride? Am I just trying to come up with an explanation that doesn't put me 100% at fault, or is it plausible?

 

[t0r0nad0]

Was this the same airplane both times?

 

[sbonek]

Was this the same airplane both times?

nope, 2 different 172's.

 

[ScottM]

I think you have gotten some good advise here. Obviously there is a need for some dual should you continue. I like the suggestion or going for a glider rating. It puts you back into student status and gets you thinking about a whole new type of flying that could then give you confidence to get back to powered flight if you desire to do so.

 

[woodstock]

a couple reasons. I'm still confident I can be a safe pilot, and I also believe I can land a plane pretty well, but the fact that I've had 2 similiar incidents when I felt I was doing a decent job messes with your head.

There is also the $$ aspect, if I continued, I'm sure my insurance would go up, plus I really doubt the FBO I rented from would continue to rent to me, and I can't blame them.

So if I really wanted to continue I would probably have to look at buying something decent to continue in, and then have to get a bunch of dual-time and then the 709, etc....

It really sucks because I do still love flying, but I'm having a hard time justifying to myself that I was meant to fly. Maybe somebody is telling me something and that I should quit before anybody gets seriously hurt.

Would it be worth it to you to just fly with a CFI when the urge strikes - instead of giving it up forever? Sorry to hear this.

 

[sbonek]

I think you have gotten some good advise here. Obviously there is a need for some dual should you continue. I like the suggestion or going for a glider rating. It puts you back into student status and gets you thinking about a whole new type of flying that could then give you confidence to get back to powered flight if you desire to do so.

agreed on all fronts. I've considered gliders, but I'm not sure where the nearest place would be to have that opportunity.

My plan was to get back into that student mode by working on my IR this summer, but obviously I didn't make it that far.

 

[sbonek]

Would it be worth it to you to just fly with a CFI when the urge strikes - instead of giving it up forever? Sorry to hear this.

possibly as a short-term way to at least fly every now and then, but I'm back to my issue with what a/c to fly just to get through the 709. And then after that is over, the current FBO isn't going to rent to me, and I don't blame them.

 

[RMCN172RG]

If I were in your situation I would probably look at purchasing a used 150/152 to build some time and confidence with.

 

[CJones]

Considering that the incidents were nearly identical in wx conditions as well as what actually happened, I would say there might be something flawed with your technique that the CFI's you've worked with have failed to address. As mentioned earlier, I would search for a 'GOOD' CFI, not one just sitting in the right seat until he gets called up to the regionals. Find someone that actually instructs for the joy of teaching others to fly. [EDIT] I don't mean to bash on your current CFI's. They may be GREAT guys/gals, but there's a chance that they could have missed something that another CFI might say "Oh.. There's your problem!" [/EDIT]

When working on my PP training, my CFI told the story of another student he had worked with. Every time they would touch down and start to slow down, the a/c would veer hard to the left. CFI would take control and straighten back out. Go back around and .. same thing. Over and over, it kept happening. Once they almost took out runway lights before the CFI could get control of it. Finally, the CFI remembered that the student drove a Firebird (manual transmission) and put 2 and 2 together to get 5. When the student was on the ground and beginning to slow down, he instinctively pressed in the clutch (left rudder) to continue to slow. Once he figured this out, he told the student that he was flying an automatic and didn't need to use the clutch. They had a big laugh over it, and the student's landings were fine once he made himself remember not to clutch it to slow down. You need to find a CFI that can recognize THIS type of stuff, not just what the book tells them.

Stick with it and I think you'll be happier in the long run.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

For example, yesterday the sky was clear and the winds were light (4-7 and nearly right down the runway).

Yesterday, similiar situation, however there was a minimal x-wind component this time. Wind was 220-230 at 4-7 and I was landing runway 25. After touchdown, as I was transition into taxi-off-the-runway mode, basically right before I raised the flaps, the nose again went left, right main came off the ground, prop hit a light this time and not the runway and off into the grass.

Steve,

Which way were you turning off the runway? Was the taxiway exit to the right, or left?

How was your speed? I'm trying to visualize the circumstances that would cause that right main to come OFF the ground...

Did the winds remain calm? A sudden quartering tailwind gust significant enough to raise the airplane off the ground when the prevailing winds were 4-7 doesn't sound likely (though not impossible).

 

[stingray]

Considering that the incidents were nearly identical in wx conditions as well as what actually happened, I would say there might be something flawed with your technique that the CFI's you've worked with have failed to address. As mentioned earlier, I would search for a 'GOOD' CFI, not one just sitting in the right seat until he gets called up to the regionals. Find someone that actually instructs for the joy of teaching others to fly. [EDIT] I don't mean to bash on your current CFI's. They may be GREAT guys/gals, but there's a chance that they could have missed something that another CFI might say "Oh.. There's your problem!" [/EDIT]

When working on my PP training, my CFI told the story of another student he had worked with. Every time they would touch down and start to slow down, the a/c would veer hard to the left. CFI would take control and straighten back out. Go back around and .. same thing. Over and over, it kept happening. Once they almost took out runway lights before the CFI could get control of it. Finally, the CFI remembered that the student drove a Firebird (manual transmission) and put 2 and 2 together to get 5. When the student was on the ground and beginning to slow down, he instinctively pressed in the clutch (left rudder) to continue to slow. Once he figured this out, he told the student that he was flying an automatic and didn't need to use the clutch. They had a big laugh over it, and the student's landings were fine once he made himself remember not to clutch it to slow down. You need to find a CFI that can recognize THIS type of stuff, not just what the book tells them.

Stick with it and I think you'll be happier in the long run.

I agree here, because there is so much similarity something is not quite right. If you are getting the main off the ground after touch down and during taxi I would look at your taxi technique. I was told by, or read somewhere that it is important to watch the sock at all times and hopefully both socks if the airport has two. Just by what I read it sounds more like you are not getting the controls set for wind after touchdown. You may also be touching down too fast. Sounds like you need help after flying (Taxiing) Go find a tail dragger CFI and get some instruction. You will not even have to leave the ground. 10 or 15 hrs and you could have your tailwheel and get some taxi help in the bargain. I will guarantee that a tailwheel instructor will make sure you understand taxi technique.

Dan

 

[sbonek]

Steve,

Which way were you turning off the runway? Was the taxiway exit to the right, or left?

How was your speed? I'm trying to visualize the circumstances that would cause that right main to come OFF the ground...

Did the winds remain calm? A sudden quartering tailwind gust significant enough to raise the airplane off the ground when the prevailing winds were 4-7 doesn't sound likely (though not impossible).

the taxiway is on the right, but I wasn't very close to it yet, I had probably another 700 - 1000 feet.

I was slowing, so I'm guessing my speed was around 20 - 30 knots at most.

The winds seemed to be pretty stable from 4 - 7 from 220 - 230, but I did notice on my trip around the pattern that the G1000 was showing winds from about 160 - 170 at pattern altitude.

 

[bsdunek]

I'm adding to the "don't give up" group. Obviously you enjoy flying, so what you need is a good analysis from a good instructor. Exactly what some others have mentioned.
Just from reading your remarks, I do think you're doing something wrong - the problem is 'what'. Once you're on the ground and down to 20-30 knots, this shouldn't happen.
Fortunately, neither of the accidents was very bad - sort of the old 'any landing you can walk away from' type. When I first got the 170, I had a couple of close calls doing crosswind landings. Nearly took out some runway lights - saved only by use of full throttle to get back in the air and go around..
I encourage you to find a different instructor, one that will really evaluate what the problem is, and KEEP FLYING!!!B)

 

[AdamZ]

Steve, something smells funny and I don't mean you. You were only going 20-30 kts and the plane suddenly turned left and " wheelbarrowed"

What condition is the runway in? Sometimes at UKT I'll land perfect and then get pulled in one direction or the the other due to numerous patches and cracks. Granted I don't get anywhere near the side of the runway but that could be it.

How about where the control surfaces were in reation to gusts?.

This really sounds more like almost a taxi incident than a landing incident expecially at only 20-30kts.

Are you perhaps heavy on your left foot.

I wonder what a high speed taxi test would reveal ( if anything) on this runway.

Best of luck. This really seems like a resolvable thing but it is a bit of a puzzle.

 

[jason]

Steve,

I'll echo the sentiment that this sounds like it's fixable. Perhaps you can talk the FBO into a continued relationship if you carry sufficient renter's insurance.

 

[sbonek]

Steve, something smells funny and I don't mean you. You were only going 20-30 kts and the plane suddenly turned left and " wheelbarrowed"

What condition is the runway in? Sometimes at UKT I'll land perfect and then get pulled in one direction or the the other due to numerous patches and cracks. Granted I don't get anywhere near the side of the runway but that could be it.

How about where the control surfaces were in reation to gusts?.

This really sounds more like almost a taxi incident than a landing incident expecially at only 20-30kts.

Are you perhaps heavy on your left foot.

I wonder what a high speed taxi test would reveal ( if anything) on this runway.

Best of luck. This really seems like a resolvable thing but it is a bit of a puzzle.

The runway is in good shape, so I doubt that was the cause. I'm still holding out hope that the mechanics might find something wrong with the rudder pedals and/or the steering mechanism, but we will see. My only other explanation is that it was a gust of wind, but I'm definately not trying to absolve myself of any wrongdoing. It is definately possibly I caused it to happen, but given my previous experience in the 1st incident, I've been extremly cognizant of what my feet are doing during the landing.

Because the windsock and the AWOS were reporting winds from 220 - 230 and I was landing on 25, I held a slight crab into the wind until ground effect, and then it was no longer needed to keep on the centerline. I'm about 99.999% sure I was directly on the centerline. Which means in order to get all the way off and into the grass on a 100ft wide runway, that takes some work to do.

In relation to what my feet were doing, again because of the 1st incident, I've been extra careful with what they are doing during the landing. I learned early on in my training that right after landing, if you stomp on the pedals one way or another, you start swerving down the runway, and that is no good. After a few times of doing that with my CFI in the right-seat, I realized the best thing to do is relax your feet right after touchdown, so any rudder I was applying during the flare doesn't send me off into the grass. Because of that, I'm pretty confident I didn't cause it by stomping on the either of the rudder pedals. Unfortunately we will probably never know for sure.

 

[sbonek]

Steve,

I'll echo the sentiment that this sounds like it's fixable. Perhaps you can talk the FBO into a continued relationship if you carry sufficient renter's insurance.

I do have renter's insurance, but at this point, even if they would let me, I don't think I would feel comfortable renting from them.

it seems like the 2 resounding messages I'm getting are:

a. Don't give up and quit, which is reasonable, but I will have to see what options I really have
b. Need to get some more dual-time to see what I might be doing wrong

In regards to b... I know there are some CFI's on here and some are in the Midwest. Anybody willing to take on a basket-case like me? Obviously you would be compensated and I would travel to your area if you were willing to see if you can figure it out.

Any takers?

 

[tonycondon]

agreed on all fronts. I've considered gliders, but I'm not sure where the nearest place would be to have that opportunity.

My plan was to get back into that student mode by working on my IR this summer, but obviously I didn't make it that far.

www.ssa.org check out the "Where to Fly" application.

 

[KennyFlys]

I do have renter's insurance, but at this point, even if they would let me, I don't think I would feel comfortable renting from them.

it seems like the 2 resounding messages I'm getting are:

a. Don't give up and quit, which is reasonable, but I will have to see what options I really have
b. Need to get some more dual-time to see what I might be doing wrong

In regards to b... I know there are some CFI's on here and some are in the Midwest. Anybody willing to take on a basket-case like me? Obviously you would be compensated and I would travel to your area if you were willing to see if you can figure it out.

Any takers?

I would certainly put forth effort to try to help you but I sincerely think you need someone with much more experience who is a better read of your skills, particularly of subtle characteristics which are difficult to see for the lesser or non-trained eye.

On the board, I think Ron would be the most qualified. Or, he may have some recommendations for you.

Whatever ya do, don't give up on this.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Yes, very similiar. The first time, right at touchdown, the nose went to the left and did what I've heard referred to as a wheelbarrow where one of the mains comes off (in this case the right main), the prop hit the runway and off into the grass. Prop had to be replaced, but I believe they tore down the engine and found it was ok. In prepartion for my first 709, I flew with 2 CFI's, and we worked on x-wind landings and I learned alot and we did some in pretty decent x-wind conditions (80-90 degrees off the runway at about 10-12 knots) and they were both satisfied with my performance. The 709 ride didn't go as well as I hoped, but the FAA guy wanted me to do 1 more session with a CFI, so I did my Flight Review since I was about a month from needing to do it anyway, and it went well.

Yesterday, similiar situation, however there was a minimal x-wind component this time. Wind was 220-230 at 4-7 and I was landing runway 25. After touchdown, as I was transition into taxi-off-the-runway mode, basically right before I raised the flaps, the nose again went left, right main came off the ground, prop hit a light this time and not the runway and off into the grass.

Initially, my only explanation was that the wind quickly changed direction and gusted from behind, but as I thought about it last night when I couldn't sleep, I got to thinking that this time it might actually have been a mechanical failure. As I replayed the trip around the pattern in my head, I remembered that as the a/c left the runway on my takeoff, the nose went to the right. I attributed this to me just holding too much right rudder. But it seems like if something weird happened with the rudder on touchdown, the right main would have come off the ground and I would have been along for the ride? Am I just trying to come up with an explanation that doesn't put me 100% at fault, or is it plausible?

I don't believe rudder misuse is going to cause the main to come off the ground in a 172 unless you are well into a groundloop and basically skidding sideways. If you weren't almost sideways on the runway, I'd say the cause of a main coming up is more likely aileron related. If you were groundlooping, then the fix is relatively easy. Learn to separate the action of the nose (rudder) from the action of the wings (aileron). Primary instructors beat students over the head about "coordinating" flight that it's easy to forget they are independent controls because sometimes they need to be.

It may also be that you are stopping "flying" when the airplane touches down -- as indicated both by the nature of the incidents and your reference to "transitioning" from landing to taxiing. You taxi at 30 knots? Get in the habit of stopping on the runway before touching the flap control. Then turn off. Then raise the flaps.

Another possibility is that you simply are rushing, trying to turn the airplane into a ground vehicle when it has too much airspeed to be a good ground vehicle.

Taildragger experience would help with this. But even without it, I think you have simply developed a bad habit on rollout that you stifle when you're with an instructor but that comes out when you're alone.

 

[bbchien]

Where in Indiana, Steve?