Hijacking foiled Down Under (AUS)

must be mentally ill,
thinking a long gun was the best choice in a crowded cabin.
 
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"Excuse me captain, I know this may sound silly, but can you fly?"
"Nope, never had a lesson."
 
That’s what happens when you want a first class seat.
 
Saddest part of this story:

"No one was injured during the incident"

I mean, I would think that at least one 17 year old with a shotgun would have a few comeuppance reminders about his head and shoulders ... :dunno:
 
One of the only good things to come out og 9/11 is that hijackings are nearly impossible to pull off now. Passengers will no longer passively sit by.
 
kmacht said:
One of the only good things to come out og 9/11 is that hijackings are nearly impossible to pull off now. Passengers will no longer passively sit by.
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Ehh, I wish that were true.
But then I remember back just a couple years ago watching on live TV as an entire police department full of super brave (/s), armed law enforcement officers stood outside a school while a gunmen systematically murdered elementary school kids.
So I'm not going to hold my breath for a more brave response from unarmed 737 pax caught off-guard by hijackers.

We're more likely to pull out our phones and try to capture the whole thing on TikTok so we can go viral. That's the American way.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Ehh, I wish that were true.
But then I remember back just a couple years ago watching on live TV as an entire police department full of super brave (/s), armed law enforcement officers stood outside a school while a gunmen systematically murdered elementary school kids.
So I'm not going to hold my breath for a more brave response from unarmed 737 pax caught off-guard by hijackers.
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Not the same thing. Rules of engagement. And the cops' lives aren't in danger unless they go in. 9/11 taught us that the passengers' lives are in danger unless they go in.
 
Dana said:
Not the same thing. Rules of engagement. And the cops' lives aren't in danger unless they go in. 9/11 taught us that the passengers' lives are in danger unless they go in.
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Indeed - they're not the same thing.
Cuz in the police situation, you're armed, trained, coordinated, outnumber the shooter 50:1, have body armor, and could collectively definitively put a stop to it if you're willing to risk your life.
Onboard a 737 you have no training, are unarmed, uncoordinated, will not have 50 people helping you, and there is an uncertain outcome either way, and you will also have to risk your life.

Thus I have an exceptionally hard time believing the society whose bravest members sworn to protect the public and wouldn't risk themselves for unarmed children -- would somehow transform into an aircraft full of vigilantes to save themselves.
Maybe in a fraction of cases it would occur, but I wouldn't count on that being the norm unless there are actual brave people aboard. And those people are RARE.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
. . . if you're willing to risk your life.
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None of the cops in Texas were willing.
ArrowFlyer86 said:
. . . there is an uncertain outcome either way, and you will also have to risk your life.
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No, 9/11 taught that the outcome if no action is taken is clear.
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I have an exceptionally hard time believing the society whose bravest members . . .
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Assumes as fact what was clearly shown not to be in evidence.
ArrowFlyer86 said:
. . . . wouldn't risk themselves for unarmed children.
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Yet it did happen, a bunch of cowards drawing government paychecks did absolutely nothing, and on camera. “The law enforcement response at Robb Elementary on May 24th, 2022 — and the response by officials in the hours and days after — was a failure." Not my words. The words of the state attorney general.

Tell me how "brave" the cops were. Especially the two who were criminally indicted.
 
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ArrowFlyer86 said:
Ehh, I wish that were true.
But then I remember back just a couple years ago watching on live TV as an entire police department full of super brave (/s), armed law enforcement officers stood outside a school while a gunmen systematically murdered elementary school kids.
So I'm not going to hold my breath for a more brave response from unarmed 737 pax caught off-guard by hijackers.

We're more likely to pull out our phones and try to capture the whole thing on TikTok so we can go viral. That's the American way.
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Completely different circumstances. I’m not saying what the cops did was right that but they were not personally in a fight of flight situation like passengers on an airplane would be. There has been lots of news stories about passengers subduing people on an airplane since 9/11 but none about successful hijackings. I know that I personally would not sit idle as someone tried to force their way into a cockpit. After people seeing what happened on 9/11 I’m pretty confident I wouldn’t be the only one either.
 
kmacht said:
Completely different circumstances. I’m not saying what the cops did was right that but they were not personally in a fight of flight situation like passengers on an airplane would be. There has been lots of news stories about passengers subduing people on an airplane since 9/11 but none about successful hijackings. I know that I personally would not sit idle as someone tried to force their way into a cockpit. After people seeing what happened on 9/11 I’m pretty confident I wouldn’t be the only one either.
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Not just airplanes.

"On 21 August 2015, a man opened fire on a Thalys train on its way from Amsterdam to Paris. Four people were injured, including the assailant. French, American and British passengers confronted the attacker and subdued him."

en.wikipedia.org

2015 Thalys train attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Rene said:
None of the cops in Texas were willing.

No, 9/11 taught that the outcome if no action is taken is clear.

Assumes as fact what was clearly shown not to be in evidence.

Yet it did happen, a bunch of cowards drawing government paychecks did absolutely nothing, and on camera. “The law enforcement response at Robb Elementary on May 24th, 2022 — and the response by officials in the hours and days after — was a failure." Not my words. The words of the state attorney general.

Tell me how "brave" the cops were. Especially the two who were criminally indicted.
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In case it wasn't abundantly obvious, the "brave" part that I wrote was completely sarcastic. There was nothing brave they did that day. Personally I doubt there's anything brave any of those guys ever did in their entire lives.

But these are people who are at least accustomed to being in a job with an above average level of danger from other people. They're armed, trained and at least in theory: prepared for hostile people and have accepted their role to protect. The average American riding on a 737 is none of these things. It's just a random Joe or Sally with a ticket for a weekend getaway. To believe that they would, on average, outperform in the face of dangerous, harmful people is wishful thinking IMHO.

I stand by the notion that the overwhelming majority of people would sit idle and hope the person next to them acts. I know on a plane it's different than the school situation because everyone's in it together and the religious fundamentalists have proven they like to take everyone down with them... but I still believe humans are exceptional at abdicating responsibility and waiting for someone else to step up.

You see this behavior outside of airplane hijackings, too. You can look at many mass atrocities that have been committed where victims greatly outnumbered the perpetrators. Rather than revolting and avoiding a certain death, many just did what they were told and waited for the inevitable. And so the inevitable occurred. Brave people are always in shorter supply than you think.
 
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ArrowFlyer86 said:
In case it wasn't abundantly obvious, the "brave" part that I wrote was completely sarcastic. There was nothing brave they did that day. Personally I doubt there's anything brave any of those guys ever did in their entire lives.

But these are people who are at least accustomed to being in a job with an above average level of danger from other people. They're armed, trained and at least in theory: prepared for hostile people and have accepted their role to protect. The average American riding on a 737 is none of these things. It's just a random Joe or Sally with a ticket for a weekend getaway. To believe that they would, on average, outperform in the face of dangerous, harmful people is wishful thinking IMHO.

I stand by the notion that the overwhelming majority of people would sit idle and hope the person next to them acts. I know on a plane it's different than the school situation because everyone's in it together and the religious fundamentalists have proven they like to take everyone down with them... but I still believe humans are exceptional at abdicating responsibility and waiting for someone else to step up.

You see this behavior outside of airplane hijackings, too. You can look at many mass atrocities that have been committed where victims greatly outnumbered the perpetrators. Rather than revolting and avoiding a certain death, many just did what they were told and waited for the inevitable. And so the inevitable occurred. Brave people are always in shorter supply than you think.
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You keep talking averages. It only takes a few people who aren’t just average to decide they are going to overpower someone trying to hijack or crash the airplane they are on. Of the few hundred on an average airplane there are always going to be some above average people. Good to know that you aren’t one of them.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
But then I remember back just a couple years ago watching on live TV as an entire police department full of super brave (/s), armed law enforcement officers stood outside a school while a gunmen systematically murdered elementary school kids.
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Regretfully the cops were engrained with following the Chain of Command and their top guy had NO clue on how to "command" his cops. But when a different group (I forget, was it DEA) came in that were not completely under his comand, they said screw it and went in as they should have.

As for the Pax on a plane... most of them could give a rats a** about the Chain of Command, so I'm still a believer as in the AUS issue that they will get involved. (But you never know until you're actually in a real situation.)
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Ehh, I wish that were true.
But then I remember back just a couple years ago watching on live TV as an entire police department …..
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That wasn’t an entire police department. It was nearly 400 local, county, state, and federal LEOs.

Don’t get me started on this one, it hits incredibly close to home.
 
kmacht said:
One of the only good things to come out og 9/11 is that hijackings are nearly impossible to pull off now. Passengers will no longer passively sit by.
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Collective security on airliners is assured by the passengers. They draw their motivation from the heroes of Flight 93, which is an enduring legacy of their actions.
 
Nay Sayers can not get past the FACT that 3 passengers, from just the first 2 rows of seats did in fact respond in their best interest, and subdued the hijacker, within less than a minute after he boarded.

Indeed, they may have been the only ones that were brave, but statistically, that is ridiculous.. Other flights since 911 have had troubled passengers who were subdued by combinations of Flight Attendants and Passengers, with many of the first responses by the Passengers.

I can assure al here, I have repeatedly been one who ran to the problem, and attached the source, when the possibility of death was clearly present. Twice, I haver gone in were trained professionals would not. I have training, but am in a different profession. I evaluate the risk, and make my own decision.
 
geezer said:
. . . . Twice, I have gone in were trained professionals would not . . .
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Sadly, it seems that as a society we have accepted the NCAA definition of "professional"; anyone who accepts money or other items of value for holding a position on a team.

Not doing a job. Not knowing what to do. Holding a position.
 
geezer said:
I can assure al here, I have repeatedly been one who ran to the problem, and attached the source, when the possibility of death was clearly present. Twice, I haver gone in were trained professionals would not. I have training, but am in a different profession. I evaluate the risk, and make my own decision.
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I have inserted myself into difficult or hazardous situations several times over the years without a second thought. It just happens, a reaction that some people have, some don't, I guess.
 
Some people run into burning buildings, some run away. Some run towards gunfire, some run away.

I'm not making any value judgement.

But I am glad that there are people that will risk their lives to help others.
 
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