Hi all, looking for a pilot in Northern California

[longwaytofall]

Hi everybody,
I am a skydiver and am looking for a pilot that either doesn't need an STC for door off flight, or already has one. (List of planes to follow).
The airport would be Rogers Field, near Chester, CA.
http://www.airnav.com/airport/O05/

If you are commercially rated we would compensate you for your time, fuel, etc. This would be a one day job, flying 2-4 loads to 5k agl (9500msl) or higher, (preferably 10k or more agl (14500msl)).
If you are not commercially rated, we will compensate you as much is allowed by law, and find a way to make it worth your while.

Basically it has been my life's dream to jump at this location, and would be willing to go to quite some lengths to make it happen.

A jumping friend of mine knows someone with an R-44, but we would have to ferry it from the bay area, (I was very surprised to see that helicopters get very reasonable gph at quite a fast cruise). The main downside to this however is we would just about have to take the helicopter to it's max altitude, (not sure if it is the carburated or injected model) to get to any reasonable jump altitude. It would be much easier to find someone who is local and doesn't mind making a few bucks for an afternoon of flying.

Thanks all, and blue skies.
Micah

Aeronca 05B
Aeronca 15AC STC SA4-1593
Beech 18 Series STC SA69CE
Beech 65-90 x
Beech 65-A90 x
Beech 65-B90 x
Beech 65-C90 x
Beech 65-E90 x
Beech AT-11 STC SA4WE
Beech C-45 and TC-45 Series STC SA 69CE
Beech D17S STC SA603SO
Beech Model 100 (all) x
Beech Model 200 x
Beech Model 200C (all) x
Beech Model 200CT x
Beech Model 200T (all) x
Beech Model 58/58A *
Beech Model 99 x
Beech Model 99A x
Beech Model A100 (all) x
Beech Model A36 x
Beech Model A36TC *
Beech Model A65 x
Beech Model A65-70 x
Beech Model A65-80 x
Beech Model A65-8200 x
Beech Model A65-B80 x
Beech Model A99A x
Beech Model B100 (all)
Beech Model B200 x
Beech Model B200C x
Beech Model B200CT x
Beech Model B200T x
Beech Model B36TC x
Beech Model B99 x
Beech Model C99 x
Centaur 101
Cessna 120 Series
Cessna 140 Series
Cessna 150 Series
Cessna 170 Series
Cessna 172 Series
Cessna 175 Series STC SA49CE
Cessna 177 STC SA466SO
Cessna 180 Series STC SA168SW Cessna 182 Series STC SA40CE
Cessna 185 Series STC SA33SO
Cessna 190 Series STC SA220WE
Cessna 195 Series STC SA1966SW
Cessna 206 Series STC SA1255WE (with Cessna accessory kit AK 206-1 installed)
Cessna 207 Series
Cessna 208 Series
Cessna 210 STC SA199WE
Cessna 337A STC SA190SO
Cessna 402C STC SA1525NM
Cessna (Ector) 305A STC SA353SW
Champion (Aeronca) 7 Series STC SA33CE
Curtis Wright (Travel Air) STC SA209WE S-6000B
De Havilland DHC-6-300 STC SA132RM
Douglas DC-3 (max. airspeed cabin passenger door removed 170 knots)
Fairchild 24 series (R/H door)
Helio 250
Helio 295
Helio 391
Helio 395
Howard DGA-15 Series
Larson (Luscombe) 8 Series (R/H door-maximum airspeed 100 MPH)
Lockheed 18-56 STC SA892SO
Lockheed 402-2 (R/H rear door)
Lockheed Model 12A
Macchi AL 60 (R/H rear door)
Maule M4, M-4-210 STC SA258CE
Noorduyn UC-64 Series (rear door)
Piper PA-12 Series *
Piper PA-18 Series *
Piper PA-20 Series *
Piper PA-22 Series *
Piper PA-28 140-160-180-235 *
Piper PA-32 Series *
Piper PA-32R Series *
Piper PA-34 Series *
Stinson SR-7B (R/H door)
Stinson V-77
Taylorcraft BC 12-D
Temco (Luscombe) 11A (R/H door)
Universal (Stinson) 108 Series
x = Procedures contained in aircraft flight manual supplement
* = Procedures contained in aircraft pilot operating handbook

 

[longwaytofall]

No takers?? Any advice about the best way to make this happen, and problems I'll need to take care of?
Chartering a turbine from a dz would cost a fortune...

 

[Traket92X]

Anyone,
Is their any California flying board to ask on?

 

[DouglasBader]

Seems a strange request.

As a jumper, one is always looking for an opportunity to get a lift to altitude. However, you provided a long list of aircraft, many of which are completely unrealistic for your request (A DC-3, really?), and you suggest that a turbine aircraft from a DZ is the only other alternative. You do realize that you listed a number of turbine aircraft in your request, right?

Many drop zones use Cessna 182's or 206's. I get the impression that you don't want to get a DZ involved. What kind of jump operation are you conducting, and are you a licensed skydiver?

 

[steingar]

Many drop zones use Cessna 182's or 206's. I get the impression that you don't want to get a DZ involved. What kind of jump operation are you conducting, and are you a licensed skydiver?

I wasn't aware meat bombs were regulated by the FAA. A pilot website is probably not the best place to ask about jumping out of aircraft, since we all tend to remain inside.

 

[Traket92X]

Seems a strange request.

As a jumper, one is always looking for an opportunity to get a lift to altitude. However, you provided a long list of aircraft, many of which are completely unrealistic for your request (A DC-3, really?), and you suggest that a turbine aircraft from a DZ is the only other alternative. You do realize that you listed a number of turbine aircraft in your request, right?

Many drop zones use Cessna 182's or 206's. I get the impression that you don't want to get a DZ involved. What kind of jump operation are you conducting, and are you a licensed skydiver?

It appears the list he provided was just copied from somewhere and the purpose is to list all planes that may remove a door to allow jumpers without major modifications.

 

[bcso48]

I fly part time for a 135 carrier that have two Cessna 208B's (Caravans). There based out of Redding so not to far away. Send me a PM if your interested

 

[longwaytofall]

Yes, I am a licensed jumper as would be anyone else that might come with me. We would be jumping with reserves that are in date, and follow all FAA rules regarding parachute jumps. In this day and age, piston aircraft at drop zones are fairly rare. Skydive Norcal in Cloverdale and Skydive Lodi are the only two places that might be able to do it. The problem is that 1. Norcal wouldn't want to let their planes go, those are their primary aircraft. 2. Lodi might, but they would only let one of their own pilots fly the aircraft, which means I would have to compensate the pilot and DZ a very large amount of money to acquire their plane, which makes it unreasonable for only a few jumps. This is NOT a bandit jump (ie, illegal in airspace, landing area, protocol, etc.) About turbines, if you think a Cessna is bad, NO dz would give up a turbine. The average twin otter or king air does maybe 10-20 loads a day, with 18-23 jumpers. Minimum slot cost being around 20, that is $3600-9200 a day. Not feasible...
No rental company would knowingly allow their aircraft to do this, so the plane must be owned, or a pilot that doesn't care (not my business). The list of aircraft is an all inclusive list of planes that can fly without a door, and it is noted if they need an stc to do this.
If a dc3 was on the ground at Chester you can bet your behind I would ask about jumping it... last year I jumped out of the bomb bay doors of a B17, and it was incredible. Nothing like radials....

Micah
P.S. Even if I could borrow a DZ Cessna for free I probably wouldn't take it, you should see some of these planes haha. I'm not going over the mountains with that thing! (Ok, I probably would with my rig on... lol)
Thanks for the tip on a local plane!

 

[denverpilot]

If you get out of the big cities, piston jump aircraft are still quite common. Call a rural jump school.

 

[John221us]

The jump operation at Lincoln has a 182 and a KA.

 

[DouglasBader]

I wasn't aware meat bombs were regulated by the FAA.

14 CFR 105.

If your'e referring to licensing of skydivers, however, that's done by the United States Parachute Association, as the parachuting arm of FAI in the United States (International Aeronautical Federation).

I'm a licensed skydiver.

About turbines, if you think a Cessna is bad, NO dz would give up a turbine.

I don't think Cessnas are bad, and you brought up turbines. Why is a Cessna bad?

I've flown a lot of jumpers in them, and jumped a lot of them.

The list of aircraft is an all inclusive list of planes that can fly without a door, and it is noted if they need an stc to do this.

You don't want a turbine airplane, but you listed a lot of aircraft that are turbine powered.

Interesting that you think arranging a 182 or 206 from a DZ might be too much, but you're willing to go for a DC-3. Rented one of those lately?

In this day and age, piston aircraft at drop zones are fairly rare.

They're really not. In fact, the majority of drop zones use piston aircraft; only larger and busier DZ's use turbine equipment. Many DZ's that have piston aircraft do most of their business on the weekends, and the airplanes are often available during the week.

 

[weilke]

14 CFR 105.

If your'e referring to licensing of skydivers, however, that's done by the United States Parachute Association, as the parachuting arm of FAI in the United States (International Aeronautical Federation).

Is a USPA license required to skydive ?

I don't think Cessnas are bad, and you brought up turbines. Why is a Cessna bad?

They are great, but the common ones tend to need a STC or factory mod to be flown with the door off. Few private owners will have that STC. An A36 otoh. can be flown with the door off with only an approved copy of the AFMS (same applies to using them as a photo ship).

The reason an owner with a commercial rating would not want to do this proposed operation is not the FAA or the USPA but rather his insurance company.

 

[jesse]

You're really going to need to find an airplane setup for jump operations and a commercial pilot familiar with flying jumpers. There are lots of regulatory and safety gotchas with what you are wanting to do.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Cessna 120?????? Really??

 

[DouglasBader]

Is a USPA license required to skydive ?

At USPA drop zones, yes.

Per the FAA, no.

Jumpers who aren't licensed, however, raise a red flag and merit further investigation. The licensing process exists for a reason, as does USPA.

Licensed or not, in-date reserves, TSO'd equipment, and other requirements exist for the jump, and you won't find many experienced jumpers who aren't licensed. If they're inexperienced or operating "outlaw" (which the original poster said is not the case), then it wouldn't be in anyone's best interest to take them aloft. That's the reason for asking. Establish who's asking first, and why, before going any further.

As for the jump operation itself, those not involved with jump operations probably aren't aware of the extreme danger posed by exposed nylon (parachute) in the airplane, or an open container or escaped reserve or pilot chute, especially with door-off operations, or the requirement for the pilot to be wearing a parachute as well.

The pilot wearing the parachute had better have a plan for getting out of the aircraft in flight and using the parachute; if a ripcord gets pulled or a parachute or pilot chute gets out in the airplane, there's very little time between "oops" and total destruction of the aircraft once that material finds the slipstream, and it can strain the jumper through the side of the airplane and open it like a spam can.

Siimple things like the way seat belts are arranged in the aircraft, any exposed surfaces or catch points, can become critical in a jump aircraft. Jumpers who don't know how to exit a particular aircraft can do damage on the way out; I've seen significant damage done to aircraft by jumpers striking the horizontal stab, and other such things, to say nothing of stepping on flaps and so forth. If it's a Cessna, the pilot who doesn't know to hold the brakes on exit can hurt the jumper or set up a chain of events with an inadvertent deployment, possibly damaging the aircraft or killing someone.

Jump run is often done with all jumpers outside the aircraft prior to release, which is power-off descending flight with full rudder and often opposite aileron to keep the wings level, as one counters the drag of several jumpers outside the aircraft. If one stalls in that condition, it can easily result in a spin, and it sometimes happens with everyone outside. That can result in aircraft damage, as well as injury.

Rules and procedures of releasing jumpers over a drop zone, especially an uncharted one, should be familiar. One shouldn't simply go kicking people out the door where ever one likes. It's a good idea to establish a NOTAM.

There's more to putting out jumpers than simply taking off the door. With the door off, instrumentation may not read correctly, and the aircraft may have additional limits insofar as slipping, airspeed, and so on.

Dropping jumpers also incurs liability, and when the jumpers are on your aircraft, you're responsible for ensuring that their equipment is in spec and in date, as well as the safety of the operation, from seat belt use to the exit. I'd caution anyone not familiar with dropping jumpers to give it a second thought, and I'd encourage the jumpers to seek qualified pilots, and aircraft.

 

[jesse]

At USPA drop zones, yes.

Per the FAA, no.

Jumpers who aren't licensed, however, raise a red flag and merit further investigation. The licensing process exists for a reason, as does USPA.

Licensed or not, in-date reserves, TSO'd equipment, and other requirements exist for the jump, and you won't find many experienced jumpers who aren't licensed. If they're inexperienced or operating "outlaw" (which the original poster said is not the case), then it wouldn't be in anyone's best interest to take them aloft. That's the reason for asking. Establish who's asking first, and why, before going any further.

As for the jump operation itself, those not involved with jump operations probably aren't aware of the extreme danger posed by exposed nylon (parachute) in the airplane, or an open container or escaped reserve or pilot chute, especially with door-off operations, or the requirement for the pilot to be wearing a parachute as well.

The pilot wearing the parachute had better have a plan for getting out of the aircraft in flight and using the parachute; if a ripcord gets pulled or a parachute or pilot chute gets out in the airplane, there's very little time between "oops" and total destruction of the aircraft once that material finds the slipstream, and it can strain the jumper through the side of the airplane and open it like a spam can.

Siimple things like the way seat belts are arranged in the aircraft, any exposed surfaces or catch points, can become critical in a jump aircraft. Jumpers who don't know how to exit a particular aircraft can do damage on the way out; I've seen significant damage done to aircraft by jumpers striking the horizontal stab, and other such things, to say nothing of stepping on flaps and so forth. If it's a Cessna, the pilot who doesn't know to hold the brakes on exit can hurt the jumper or set up a chain of events with an inadvertent deployment, possibly damaging the aircraft or killing someone.

Jump run is often done with all jumpers outside the aircraft prior to release, which is power-off descending flight with full rudder and often opposite aileron to keep the wings level, as one counters the drag of several jumpers outside the aircraft. If one stalls in that condition, it can easily result in a spin, and it sometimes happens with everyone outside. That can result in aircraft damage, as well as injury.

Rules and procedures of releasing jumpers over a drop zone, especially an uncharted one, should be familiar. One shouldn't simply go kicking people out the door where ever one likes. It's a good idea to establish a NOTAM.

There's more to putting out jumpers than simply taking off the door. With the door off, instrumentation may not read correctly, and the aircraft may have additional limits insofar as slipping, airspeed, and so on.

Dropping jumpers also incurs liability, and when the jumpers are on your aircraft, you're responsible for ensuring that their equipment is in spec and in date, as well as the safety of the operation, from seat belt use to the exit. I'd caution anyone not familiar with dropping jumpers to give it a second thought, and I'd encourage the jumpers to seek qualified pilots, and aircraft.

As someone that is no expert but does fly jumpers from time to time I agree with the above. There are little details that matter big time when you're dropping jumpers. Things can go from peachy to your airplane coming apart in a split second. I really wouldn't be wanting to drop a jumper without an airplane configured for it.

When you fly in IMC --- there is an entire system (IFR) that ensures you can do it safely. If you do not have that entire system working on your side then it becomes extremely dangerous in a hurry. Dropping jumpers works the same way.

 

[longwaytofall]

I don't think Cessnas are bad, and you brought up turbines. Why is a Cessna bad?

You don't want a turbine airplane, but you listed a lot of aircraft that are turbine powered.

Interesting that you think arranging a 182 or 206 from a DZ might be too much, but you're willing to go for a DC-3. Rented one of those lately?

I was referring to the cost, when talking about cessna's being bad. Flying a jump cessna from the bay area (the closest drop zones) all the way up there would be a significant amount of money. Flying a turbine up there would be a fortune. We will only have 2-3 jumpers, so a jump ticket cost of $1000 each is out of the question.

For the last time, the list is all inclusive and was copy pasted. Do you think I looked up each one of those aircraft along with the STCs required??
Also, if any of the larger aircraft happened to be at roger's field, then YES I would talk to the pilot about jumping it.

 

[steingar]

At USPA drop zones, yes.

Per the FAA, no.

From the sounds of it meat bombs are indeed unregulated. Voluntary"regulation" just isn't the same as having the FAA breathing down my neck.

Speaking of which, when one of the skydivers I know asks me again to take him up so he can jump out of my aircraft, what are the salient issues?

 

[longwaytofall]

At USPA drop zones, yes.

Per the FAA, no.

Jumpers who aren't licensed, however, raise a red flag and merit further investigation. The licensing process exists for a reason, as does USPA.

Licensed or not, in-date reserves, TSO'd equipment, and other requirements exist for the jump, and you won't find many experienced jumpers who aren't licensed. If they're inexperienced or operating "outlaw" (which the original poster said is not the case), then it wouldn't be in anyone's best interest to take them aloft. That's the reason for asking. Establish who's asking first, and why, before going any further.

As for the jump operation itself, those not involved with jump operations probably aren't aware of the extreme danger posed by exposed nylon (parachute) in the airplane, or an open container or escaped reserve or pilot chute, especially with door-off operations, or the requirement for the pilot to be wearing a parachute as well.

The pilot wearing the parachute had better have a plan for getting out of the aircraft in flight and using the parachute; if a ripcord gets pulled or a parachute or pilot chute gets out in the airplane, there's very little time between "oops" and total destruction of the aircraft once that material finds the slipstream, and it can strain the jumper through the side of the airplane and open it like a spam can.

Siimple things like the way seat belts are arranged in the aircraft, any exposed surfaces or catch points, can become critical in a jump aircraft. Jumpers who don't know how to exit a particular aircraft can do damage on the way out; I've seen significant damage done to aircraft by jumpers striking the horizontal stab, and other such things, to say nothing of stepping on flaps and so forth. If it's a Cessna, the pilot who doesn't know to hold the brakes on exit can hurt the jumper or set up a chain of events with an inadvertent deployment, possibly damaging the aircraft or killing someone.

Jump run is often done with all jumpers outside the aircraft prior to release, which is power-off descending flight with full rudder and often opposite aileron to keep the wings level, as one counters the drag of several jumpers outside the aircraft. If one stalls in that condition, it can easily result in a spin, and it sometimes happens with everyone outside. That can result in aircraft damage, as well as injury.

Rules and procedures of releasing jumpers over a drop zone, especially an uncharted one, should be familiar. One shouldn't simply go kicking people out the door where ever one likes. It's a good idea to establish a NOTAM.

There's more to putting out jumpers than simply taking off the door. With the door off, instrumentation may not read correctly, and the aircraft may have additional limits insofar as slipping, airspeed, and so on.

Dropping jumpers also incurs liability, and when the jumpers are on your aircraft, you're responsible for ensuring that their equipment is in spec and in date, as well as the safety of the operation, from seat belt use to the exit. I'd caution anyone not familiar with dropping jumpers to give it a second thought, and I'd encourage the jumpers to seek qualified pilots, and aircraft.

Yes, dangers do exit that are specific to skydiving operations. The way you expressed the info makes it sound like these things are common. On a jump, I am more concerned about how the pilot has prepared and how they will react to an aircraft emergency than he is of me putting my pilot chute over the tail...
There are about 3 million jumps made in the United States each year. The last time inadvertent deployment inside the aircraft or in the door brought down an aircraft was many years ago. The last time a pilot killed a jumper was a few weeks ago.

Skydivers have emergency procedures drilled into their head continuously, and covering/checking handles and being aware of snag points is something that is done many times on a jump. We have procedures for handling premature openings in/on the aircraft, and the number of incidents that result in injury or aircraft damage are extremely low.

Holding the brakes isn't required, and any exit considered would be fully rehearsed with the pilot on the ground. Also, hanging outside the aircraft before exit is called "floating" and is usually only done when a large group of jumpers wishes to exit all at once. (Not ALL jumpers on the load, EVER) This wouldn't be the case in my situation. (And no, it does not require full rudder to compensate, if it did the pilot wouldn't know what they were doing, or the aircraft would not be suitable for jump ops. The main issue with floating is 1. Reduced elevator authority, requiring the pilot to maintain sufficient airspeed. 2. The large group of jumpers moving to the rear of the aircraft at one time, which on some aircraft like the pac750, king air, beech 99, etc can cause a significant cg shift to be an issue. Jumpers are familiar with each aircraft they jump and know how many people can be behind a certain point of the aircraft in order to keep the cg at a safe limit)

As far as the landing area, yes you need permission, and yes we would have it.

As far as the aircraft, if it is approved for door off flight or has an stc to do so, then all procedures would be listed in the appropriate manual.

I am perfectly fine inviting an FAA inspector to review any jump op that I would be doing, I know the laws and would never put the pilot in a compromised position.


The only reason I took the time to type all of this is because I don't appreciate the attitude with which you conveyed the info you had (You are obviously not a jump pilot or a skydiver, so your info is second hand at best). Someone on these boards suggested an aircraft company in the nearby area, and following some leads has provided me with several pilots/aircraft that are willing to take us. (Thank you!!!) So no, taking jumpers is not a suicide mission, and anyone with real experience taking jumpers isn't going to think of it as such.

 

[longwaytofall]

From the sounds of it meat bombs are indeed unregulated. Voluntary"regulation" just isn't the same as having the FAA breathing down my neck.

Speaking of which, when one of the skydivers I know asks me again to take him up so he can jump out of my aircraft, what are the salient issues?

YOU are the one with a ticket that can be taken away by the FAA, not the skydiver, so it is up to you to make sure you are following the laws.
Laws you need to be sure of:
1. Make sure the jumper shows you his reserve pack card, and you verify that his reserve has been repacked in the last 6 months (recently they have extended the interval from 4 months to 6 months, nice!)
2. Make sure that the rig contains 2 parachutes (If you physically saw the data card, you are ok) jumping with the intention of using the reserve system is illegal.
3. Legally, you are required to have a seatbelt for each jumper. Many drop zone operations do not enforce this, although belts are usually present in the plane. Belts for jumpers are only a few inches long, and loop through their leg strap. Belts are required to 1000ft (the minimum emergency exit altitude)
4. You need to have permission from the land owner of the land the jumper intends to land on. This is more of an issue between the jumper and land owner, however. I am not sure if you have any liability.
5. You need to announce your intention to drop jumpers no earlier than 24 hours before, and no later than 1 hour before, and again when you are about to release the jumpers. (as I understand it, you aren't asking permission, simply informing)
6. If there are any clouds, make sure the landing area is visible before allowing jumpers to exit. If a jumper "cloud busts" you can be liable. This includes wingsuiters who can fly several miles away from the exit, and go through a cloud. You are still liable.

Suggestions for a safer jump:
1. Ask the jumper to ensure his main closing loop is tight, and bridle is properly stowed.
2. Remind jumper to protect all handles and check main handle frequently.
3. "Dirt dive" the exit procedure, and discuss things such as cg requirements, and where the jumper can hang on or not. Discuss the airspeed you will be flying the jump run at, 120+ mph can be hard to deal with, 100 or less is much preferred.
4. Discuss the jump run direction (usually into the wind). Discuss winds, and how far you need to overshoot the landing area to compensate.
5. Talk about alternate landing areas the jumper can land in, and take a look on the climb to altitude.
6. While not required, (at least on certain aircraft) it would be much preferred to wear a pilot's bail out rig. Discuss with the jumper the proper way to use the rig, and ask him to try to locate one for you to use (glider schools, parachute riggers, places that rent aerobatic aircraft are all good places to try).
7. Ask the jumper to rehearse with you the emergency procedures involving a pilot chute loose in the aircraft, and a pilot chute out the door. You need to rehearse the jumper with any emergency procedures you have involving him (If you have an engine failure, are you ok with him exiting the aircraft? Where should he be seated for best cg, etc?)
8. Remember, YOU are the one that will get in trouble with the FAA if an inspector shows up and checks out the operation. Don't let your skydiving buddy make requests you are uncomfortable with (hanging upside down from his feet on your leading edge (lots of fun though haha)), you are the PIC, what you say goes.

Anyways, I hope this was helpful to those considering taking jumpers.

 

[longwaytofall]

Oh, I also wanted to add: Find out how many jumps the skydiver has. 100 jumps seems like a ton to whuffos, but in reality is not many. Any less than 100 and it should be an automatic no go... Also, ask the jumper how many jumps he has in the last few months. If zero, no go. If they have at least a few, ok. Currency is big in our sport, you don't want a student jumper who hasn't jumped in a year exiting your plane, for a lot of reasons...

 

[jesse]

From the sounds of it meat bombs are indeed unregulated. Voluntary"regulation" just isn't the same as having the FAA breathing down my neck.

The USPA is very strict. If a skydiver upsets them the USPA will pull their license. If that happens their jumping days are done. No drop zone is going to let them near an airplane and no insurance will cover them. The FAA will indeed be breathing down your neck if something goes wrong.

Speaking of which, when one of the skydivers I know asks me again to take him up so he can jump out of my aircraft, what are the salient issues?

As a pilot that often drops skydivers out of a 182 modified for the operation there is absolutely no way in hell I would even consider taking them up in a PA28 to jump out. There isn't going to be a safe way to do it -- it's not like the door is just going to open up nicely with the wind force being applied.

Even if the airplane IS set up to do it -- I wouldn't even for a moment consider doing it unless I was wearing a parachute. There are very real risks.

As to the regulations that you would have to abide by, there are a lot of them. If something goes wrong or something isn't done correctly -- you -- the PIC is whom the FAA is going to hold responsible.

Be sure you're familiar with all of these regulations and remember that just because you know the regulations doesn't mean you should be doing it:

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing parachute operations conducted in the United States.

(b) This part does not apply to a parachute operation conducted—

(1) In response to an in-flight emergency, or

(2) To meet an emergency on the surface when it is conducted at the direction or with the approval of an agency of the United States, or of a State, Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, or a possession of the United States, or an agency or political subdivision thereof.

(c) Sections 105.5, 105.9, 105.13, 105.15, 105.17, 105.19 through 105.23, 105.25(a)(1) and 105.27 of this part do not apply to a parachute operation conducted by a member of an Armed Force—

(1) Over or within a restricted area when that area is under the control of an Armed Force.

(2) During military operations in uncontrolled airspace.

For the purposes of this part—

Approved parachute means a parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a Technical Standard Order (C–23 series), or a personnel-carrying U.S. military parachute (other than a high altitude, high speed, or ejection type) identified by a Navy Air Facility, an Army Air Field, and Air Force-Navy drawing number, an Army Air Field order number, or any other military designation or specification number.

Automatic Activation Device means a self-contained mechanical or electro-mechanical device that is attached to the interior of the reserve parachute container, which automatically initiates parachute deployment of the reserve parachute at a pre-set altitude, time, percentage of terminal velocity, or combination thereof.

Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing.

Drop Zone means any pre-determined area upon which parachutists or objects land after making an intentional parachute jump or drop. The center-point target of a drop zone is expressed in nautical miles from the nearest VOR facility when 30 nautical miles or less; or from the nearest airport, town, or city depicted on the appropriate Coast and Geodetic Survey World Aeronautical Chart or Sectional Aeronautical Chart, when the nearest VOR facility is more than 30 nautical miles from the drop zone.

Foreign parachutist means a parachutist who is neither a U.S. citizen or a resident alien and is participating in parachute operations within the United States using parachute equipment not manufctured in the United States.

Freefall means the portion of a parachute jump or drop between aircraft exit and parachute deployment in which the parachute is activated manually by the parachutist at the parachutist's discretion or automatically, or, in the case of an object, is activated automatically.

Main parachute means a parachute worn as the primary parachute used or intended to be used in conjunction with a reserve parachute.

Object means any item other than a person that descends to the surface from an aircraft in flight when a parachute is used or is intended to be used during all or part of the descent.

Parachute drop means the descent of an object to the surface from an aircraft in flight when a parachute is used or intended to be used during all or part of that descent.

Parachute jump means a parachute operation that involves the descent of one or more persons to the surface from an aircraft in flight when an aircraft is used or intended to be used during all or part of that descent.

Parachute operation means the performance of all activity for the purpose of, or in support of, a parachute jump or a parachute drop. This parachute operation can involve, but is not limited to, the following persons: parachutist, parachutist in command and passenger in tandem parachute operations, drop zone or owner or operator, jump master, certificated parachute rigger, or pilot.

Parachutist means a person who intends to exit an aircraft while in flight using a single-harness, dual parachute system to descend to the surface.

Parachutist in command means the person responsible fro the operation and safety of a tandem parachute operation.

Passenger parachutist means a person who boards an aircraft, acting as other than the parachutist in command of a tandem parachute operation, with the intent of exiting the aircraft while in-flight using the forward harness of a dual harness tandem parachute system to descend to the surface.

Pilot chute means a small parachute used to initiate and/or accelerate deployment of a main or reserve parachute.

Ram-air parachute means a parachute with a canopy consisting of an upper and lower surface that is inflated by ram air entering through specially designed openings in the front of the canopy to form a gliding airfoil.

Reserve parachute means an approved parachute worn for emergency use to be activated only upon failure of the main parachute or in any other emergency where use of the main parachute is impractical or use of the main parachute would increase risk.

Single-harness, dual parachute system: means the combination of a main parachute, approved reserve parachute, and approved single person harness and dual-parachute container. This parachute system may have an operational automatic activation device installed.

Tandem parachute operation: means a parachute operation in which more than one person simultaneously uses the same tandem parachute system while descending to the surface from an aircraft in flight.

Tandem parachute system: means the combination of a main parachute, approved reserve parachute, and approved harness and dual parachute container, and a separate approved forward harness for a passenger parachutist. This parachute system must have an operational automatic activation device installed.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from an aircraft, if that operation creates a hazard to air traffic or to persons or property on the surface.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of—

(a) Alcohol, or

(b) Any drug that affects that person's faculties in any way contrary to safety.

The Administrator may inspect any parachute operation to which this part applies (including inspections at the site where the parachute operation is being conducted) to determine compliance with the regulations of this part.

(a) Except when otherwise authorized by air traffic control—

(1) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, in or into controlled airspace unless, during that flight—

(i) The aircraft is equipped with a functioning two-way radio communication system appropriate to the air traffic control facilities being used; and

(ii) Radio communications have been established between the aircraft and the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the affected airspace of the first intended exit altitude at least 5 minutes before the parachute operation begins. The pilot in command must establish radio communications to receive information regarding air traffic activity in the vicinity of the parachute operation.

(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft used for any parachute operation in or into controlled airspace must, during each flight—

(i) Continuously monitor the appropriate frequency of the aircraft's radio communications system from the time radio communications are first established between the aircraft and air traffic control, until the pilot advises air traffic control that the parachute operation has ended for that flight.

(ii) Advise air traffic control when the last parachutist or object leaves the aircraft.

(b) Parachute operations must be aborted if, prior to receipt of a required air traffic control authorization, or during any parachute operation in or into controlled airspace, the required radio communications system is or becomes inoperative.

(a) Each person requesting an authorization under §§105.21(b) and 105.25(a)(2) of this part and each person submitting a notification under §105.25(a)(3) of this part must provide the following information (on an individual or group basis):

(1) The date and time the parachute operation will begin.

(2) The radius of the drop zone around the target expressed in nautical miles.

(3) The location of the center of the drop zone in relation to—

(i) The nearest VOR facility in terms of the VOR radial on which it is located and its distance in nautical miles from the VOR facility when that facility is 30 nautical miles or less from the drop zone target; or

(ii) the nearest airport, town, or city depicted on the appropriate Coast and Geodetic Survey World Aeronautical Chart or Sectional Aeronautical Chart, when the nearest VOR facility is more than 30 nautical miles from the drop zone target.

(4) Each altitude above mean sea level at which the aircraft will be operated when parachutists or objects exist the aircraft.

(5) The duration of the intended parachute operation.

(6) The name, address, and telephone number of the person who requests the authorization or gives notice of the parachute operation.

(7) The registration number of the aircraft to be used.

(8) The name of the air traffic control facility with jurisdiction of the airspace at the first intended exit altitude to be used for the parachute operation.

(b) Each holder of a certificate of authorization issued under §§105.21(b) and 105.25(b) of this part must present that certificate for inspection upon the request of the Administrator or any Federal, State, or local official.

(c) Each person requesting an authorization under §§105.21(b) and 105.25(a)(2) of this part and each person submitting a notice under §105.25(a)(3) of this part must promptly notify the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the affected airspace if the proposed or scheduled parachute operation is canceled or postponed.

§ 105.17 Flight visibility and clearance from cloud requirements.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft—

(a) Into or through a cloud, or

(b) When the flight visibility or the distance from any cloud is less than that prescribed in the following table:

Altitude Flight visibility
(statute miles) Distance from clouds
1,200 feet or less above the surface regardless of the MSL altitude 3 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 2,000 feet horizontal.
More than 1,200 feet above the surface but less than 10,000 feet MSL 3 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 2,000 feet horizontal.
More than 1,200 feet above the surface and at or above 10,000 feet MSL 5 1,000 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 1 mile horizontal.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from an aircraft between sunset and sunrise, unless the person or object descending from the aircraft displays a light that is visible for at least 3 statute miles.

(b) The light required by paragraph (a) of this section must be displayed from the time that the person or object is under a properly functioning open parachute until that person or object reaches the surface.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or into a congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or an open-air assembly of persons unless a certificate of authorization for that parachute operation has been issued under this section. However, a parachutist may drift over a congested area or an open-air assembly of persons with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if that parachutist is at a sufficient altitude to avoid creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) An application for a certificate of authorization issued under this section must—

(1) Be made in the form and manner prescribed by the Administrator, and

(2) Contain the information required in §105.15(a) of this part.

(c) Each holder of, and each person named as a participant in a certificate of authorization issued under this section must comply with all requirements contained in the certificate of authorization.

(d) Each holder of a certificate of authorization issued under this section must present that certificate for inspection upon the request of the Administrator, or any Federal, State, or local official.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or onto any airport unless—

(a) For airports with an operating control tower:

(1) Prior approval has been obtained from the management of the airport to conduct parachute operations over or on that airport.

(2) Approval has been obtained from the control tower to conduct parachute operations over or onto that airport.

(3) Two-way radio communications are maintained between the pilot of the aircraft involved in the parachute operation and the control tower of the airport over or onto which the parachute operation is being conducted.

(b) For airports without an operating control tower, prior approval has been obtained from the management of the airport to conduct parachute operations over or on that airport.

(c) A parachutist may drift over that airport with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if the parachutist is at least 2,000 feet above that airport's traffic pattern, and avoids creating a hazard to air traffic or to persons and property on the ground.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft—

(1) Over or within a restricted area or prohibited area unless the controlling agency of the area concerned has authorized that parachute operation;

(2) Within or into a Class A, B, C, D airspace area without, or in violation of the requirements of, an air traffic control authorization issued under this section;

(3) Except as provided in paragraph (c) and (d) of this section, within or into Class E or G airspace area unless the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace at the first intended exit altitude is notified of the parachute operation no earlier than 24 hours before or no later than 1 hour before the parachute operation begins.

(b) Each request for a parachute operation authorization or notification required under this section must be submitted to the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace at the first intended exit altitude and must include the information prescribed by §105.15(a) of this part.

(c) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, air traffic control facilities may accept a written notification from an organization that conducts parachute operations and lists the scheduled series of parachute operations to be conducted over a stated period of time not longer than 12 calendar months. The notification must contain the information prescribed by §105.15(a) of this part, identify the responsible persons associated with that parachute operation, and be submitted at least 15 days, but not more than 30 days, before the parachute operation begins. The FAA may revoke the acceptance of the notification for any failure of the organization conducting the parachute operations to comply with its requirements.

(d) Paragraph (a)(3) of this section does not apply to a parachute operation conducted by a member of an Armed Force within a restricted area that extends upward from the surface when that area is under the control of an Armed Force.

No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows:

(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 180 days before the date of its use by a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger.

(b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger—

(1) Within 180 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or similar synthetic fiber or material that is substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, and other fungi, and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or

(2) Within 60 days before the date of its use, if it is composed of any amount of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber, or material not specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section.

(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless—

(1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements:

(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist—

(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

(2) The person acting as parachutist in command:

(i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.

(ii) Uses the harness position prescribed by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute equipment.

(b) No person may make a parachute jump with a tandem parachute system unless—

(1) The main parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger, the parachutist in command making the next jump with that parachute, or a person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger.

(2) The reserve parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger in accordance with §105.43(b) of this part.

(3) The tandem parachute system contains an operational automatic activation device for the reserve parachute, approved by the manufacturer of that tandem parachute system. The device must—

(i) Have been maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions, and

(ii) Be armed during each tandem parachute operation.

(4) The passenger parachutist is provided with a manual main parachute activation device and instructed on the use of that device, if required by the owner/operator.

(5) The main parachute is equipped with a single-point release system.

(6) The reserve parachute meets Technical Standard Order C23 specifications.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may conduct a parachute operation using a static line attached to the aircraft and the main parachute unless an assist device, described and attached as follows, is used to aid the pilot chute in performing its function, or, if no pilot chute is used, to aid in the direct deployment of the main parachute canopy. The assist device must—

(1) Be long enough to allow the main parachute container to open before a load is placed on the device.

(2) Have a static load strength of—

(i) At least 28 pounds but not more than 160 pounds if it is used to aid the pilot chute in performing its function; or

(ii) At least 56 pounds but not more than 320 pounds if it is used to aid in the direct deployment of the main parachute canopy; and

(3) Be attached as follows:

(i) At one end, to the static line above the static-line pins or, if static-line pins are not used, above the static-line ties to the parachute cone.

(ii) At the other end, to the pilot chute apex, bridle cord, or bridle loop, or, if no pilot chute is used, to the main parachute canopy.

(b) No person may attach an assist device required by paragraph (a) of this section to any main parachute unless that person is a certificated parachute rigger or that person makes the next parachute jump with that parachute.

(c) An assist device is not required for parachute operations using direct-deployed, ram-air parachutes.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft with an unapproved foreign parachute system unless—

(1) The parachute system is worn by a foreign parachutist who is the owner of that system.

(2) The parachute system is of a single-harness dual parachute type.

(3) The parachute system meets the civil aviation authority requirements of the foreign parachutist's country.

(4) All foreign non-approved parachutes deployed by a foreign parachutist during a parachute operation conducted under this section shall be packed as follows—

(i) The main parachute must be packed by the foreign parachutist making the next parachute jump with that parachute, a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator.

(ii) The reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator.

 

[longwaytofall]

If you see a jumper's reserve card it will take care of all skydiver's equipment requirements.... like I mentioned before. Lots of the above laws don't apply, ie Tandem and static line, to someone wanting to take up jumpers for fun.

AND FOR THE LAST TIME, if you don't know what you are talking about, please just don't post. YES you can skydive without a USPA license. Yes their are drop zones out there that do not require a USPA license. Compliance with the USPA is completely voluntary, they simply give suggestions to drop zones and skydivers. Most drop zones require membership, for a variety of reasons. But not all.

 

[longwaytofall]

Also, the USPA is not "very strict". If you are a fun jumper, there is just about no way you can loose your license, unless you do a very high profile, very FAA illegal jump (Pastrana jumping without rig). Instructors who demonstrate gross negligence might get their rating pulled, but out of the thousands of skydivers I have met, I have never heard about someone getting their rating pulled unless they didn't care and knew they would have it pulled.

 

[weilke]

The USPA is very strict. If a skydiver upsets them the USPA will pull their license. If that happens their jumping days are done. No drop zone is going to let them near an airplane and no insurance will cover them. The FAA will indeed be breathing down your neck if something goes wrong.

What insurance are you talking about and in what situation would an individual skydiver ever be faced with the FAA ? The FAA doesn't regulate the individual skydiver, they only regulate the jump pilot and the rigger who packed the reserve.

As a pilot that often drops skydivers out of a 182 modified for the operation there is absolutely no way in hell I would even consider taking them up in a PA28 to jump out. There isn't going to be a safe way to do it -- it's not like the door is just going to open up nicely with the wind force being applied.

That's why you take the door off. It's an approved operation in the POH for the PA32 (which is the only piper plane I would want to drop anyone out of).

This is what the POH says about it:

REAR CABIN DOOR OR REAR CABIN DOOR AND CARCO DOOR REMOVED
The following limitations must be observedin the operationo f this airplanew ith the rear
cabin door or rear cabin door and cargo door removed:
l. The airplane may be flown with the rear cabin door or rear cabin door and cargo door removed Flight with the front door removedis not approved.
2. Maximums peed- 165m ph.
3. No smoking.
4. All loose articles must be tied down and stowed.
5. Jumper's static lines must be kept free of pilot's controls and control surfaces.​

6. Operationa pproved VFR flight conditions only


Yeah, don't smoke, but otherwise you are fine to drop jumpers from a unmodified PA32.

 

[DouglasBader]

Also, if any of the larger aircraft happened to be at roger's field, then YES I would talk to the pilot about jumping it.

And you'd be paying a lot of money to do it. Far more than you'd be paying to bring a Cessna from a drop zone.

AND FOR THE LAST TIME, if you don't know what you are talking about, please just don't post.

Everyone posting here does know what they're talking about. Some of us are experienced jumpers, and jump pilots. YOU started the thread, asking for help. When you ask, you're the beggar; beggars aren't choosers, and you really don't get to choose who responds, or choose what they say by putting words in their mouth.

If you see a jumper's reserve card it will take care of all skydiver's equipment requirements.... like I mentioned before.

No, it really won't, and anybody reading this thread needs to know that there's a lot more to flying jumpers than simply seeing a reserve card and hearing the jumper indicate he's good to go.

Anyone considering helping this guy should be aware of that, too. He seems to be someone who is more interested in getting someone to do something for him, without giving a lot of thought to what's involved, and who isn't a pilot himself. What he's reading are pilots talking to other pilots, and perhaps it's over his head.

Yes, dangers do exit that are specific to skydiving operations. The way you expressed the info makes it sound like these things are common. On a jump, I am more concerned about how the pilot has prepared and how they will react to an aircraft emergency than he is of me putting my pilot chute over the tail...

What you're concerned about is really irrelevant: you're making a request from pilots, and what the pilot is concerned about is what's important. You have no idea what the pilot's concerned about. You might be very concerned that the pilot spots you correctly on the drop, but the fact is any jump pilot is ALWAYS concerned about you protecting your reserve, your exit, the shifting CG, and other aspects of the jump. From your perspective on a skydive, the airplane is just a ride to altitude; it's all about you. From the pilot's perspective, you're disposable, self-loading cargo.

There are about 3 million jumps made in the United States each year. The last time inadvertent deployment inside the aircraft or in the door brought down an aircraft was many years ago. The last time a pilot killed a jumper was a few weeks ago.

Doesn't matter when the last fatality was: that it's a distinct possibility is wha'ts important. Doesn't matter that a pilot hasn't had an engine failure in the last 3,000 hours; he should always plan for it anyway. Same when flying jumpers; there are hazards that attend flying jumpers that need to be considered.

Airlines fly millions of hours without incident too, but major fatalities still occur. As pilots, we take these things seriously.

As jumpers, we take them seriously, too.

I don't know how many reserve rides you've had; I've had several. More jumpers are killed today under good canopies, underscoring a certain level of complacency among jumpers as they push themselves farther and farther.

A good day flying? When nothing exciting happens. Personally, free fall to me is about freedom. To many jumpers, it's about a thrill. In flying we try hard to avoid the thrill by planning ahead and acting safely. Before you get what you want as a jumper, we as the pilot always have the first and last say, and we always get what we want. You may or may not get out the door; we may descend with you on board, but at no point during that flight, before, during, or after, are you in charge. It's very much the pilot's domain, regardless of what any DZ skygod might think.

Jump pilots try hard to accommodate the jumpers; it goes hand in hand with being a jump pilot. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking, however, that yours is the critical decision making when it comes to that flight, or that yours is the authority governing that flight. You're not the one holding federal certification as having ultimate authority over the safe outcome of that flight, nor do you have the ultimate responsibility. Only the pilot in command has that, and that extends to you and your equipment, as well as the conduct of the flight, and the results of what he drops from that aircraft. That includes YOU.

Instructors who demonstrate gross negligence might get their rating pulled, but out of the thousands of skydivers I have met, I have never heard about someone getting their rating pulled unless they didn't care and knew they would have it pulled.

I know a lot of S&TA's who might beg to differ with you on that. USPA takes safety very seriously (and fun very seriously, too).

From the sounds of it meat bombs are indeed unregulated. Voluntary"regulation" just isn't the same as having the FAA breathing down my neck.

I've never liked that term; it's one of ignorance. We're fun jumpers, skydivers, parachutists, even wing and body pilots...but we are not "meat bombs."

I've spent time in intensive care following a malfunction; I've been hurt, and I've had some great times jumping. I'm not a "meat bomb." I'm a human being, and every person on that flight is someone who has a life, too. At the DZ, nobody cares if you're a doctor, lawyer, or ditch digger; everyone is the same at the DZ. Skydiving is every bit as much a part of aviation as any other aspect of the industry.

Skydiving is regulated. Read 14 CFR 105.

Skydivers aren't issued licenses by the FAA. That doesn't mean that jump operations aren't regulated.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

As a pilot that often drops skydivers out of a 182 modified for the operation there is absolutely no way in hell I would even consider taking them up in a PA28 to jump out. There isn't going to be a safe way to do it -- it's not like the door is just going to open up nicely with the wind force being applied.

Even if the airplane IS set up to do it -- I wouldn't even for a moment consider doing it unless I was wearing a parachute. There are very real risks.

Out of curiosity, do you wear a parachute when dropping jumpers out of the 182? Did you get any training in the use of a parachute prior to this? I'm asking because there is a local drop zone looking pilots for their 182 and I meet the requirements (minus training in parachute ops, which they can provide).

 

[jesse]

Out of curiosity, do you wear a parachute when dropping jumpers out of the 182? Did you get any training in the use of a parachute prior to this? I'm asking because there is a local drop zone looking pilots for their 182 and I meet the requirements (minus training in parachute ops, which they can provide).

Yes - they provide the parachute and provided some training as to how to use it.

 

[longwaytofall]

And you'd be paying a lot of money to do it. Far more than you'd be paying to bring a Cessna from a drop zone.



Everyone posting here does know what they're talking about. Some of us are experienced jumpers, and jump pilots. YOU started the thread, asking for help. When you ask, you're the beggar; beggars aren't choosers, and you really don't get to choose who responds, or choose what they say by putting words in their mouth.



No, it really won't, and anybody reading this thread needs to know that there's a lot more to flying jumpers than simply seeing a reserve card and hearing the jumper indicate he's good to go.

Anyone considering helping this guy should be aware of that, too. He seems to be someone who is more interested in getting someone to do something for him, without giving a lot of thought to what's involved, and who isn't a pilot himself. What he's reading are pilots talking to other pilots, and perhaps it's over his head.

Yes, dangers do exit that are specific to skydiving operations. The way you expressed the info makes it sound like these things are common. On a jump, I am more concerned about how the pilot has prepared and how they will react to an aircraft emergency than he is of me putting my pilot chute over the tail...

What you're concerned about is really irrelevant: you're making a request from pilots, and what the pilot is concerned about is what's important. You have no idea what the pilot's concerned about. You might be very concerned that the pilot spots you correctly on the drop, but the fact is any jump pilot is ALWAYS concerned about you protecting your reserve, your exit, the shifting CG, and other aspects of the jump. From your perspective on a skydive, the airplane is just a ride to altitude; it's all about you. From the pilot's perspective, you're disposable, self-loading cargo.




Doesn't matter when the last fatality was: that it's a distinct possibility is wha'ts important. Doesn't matter that a pilot hasn't had an engine failure in the last 3,000 hours; he should always plan for it anyway. Same when flying jumpers; there are hazards that attend flying jumpers that need to be considered.

Airlines fly millions of hours without incident too, but major fatalities still occur. As pilots, we take these things seriously.

As jumpers, we take them seriously, too.

I don't know how many reserve rides you've had; I've had several. More jumpers are killed today under good canopies, underscoring a certain level of complacency among jumpers as they push themselves farther and farther.

A good day flying? When nothing exciting happens. Personally, free fall to me is about freedom. To many jumpers, it's about a thrill. In flying we try hard to avoid the thrill by planning ahead and acting safely. Before you get what you want as a jumper, we as the pilot always have the first and last say, and we always get what we want. You may or may not get out the door; we may descend with you on board, but at no point during that flight, before, during, or after, are you in charge. It's very much the pilot's domain, regardless of what any DZ skygod might think.

Jump pilots try hard to accommodate the jumpers; it goes hand in hand with being a jump pilot. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking, however, that yours is the critical decision making when it comes to that flight, or that yours is the authority governing that flight. You're not the one holding federal certification as having ultimate authority over the safe outcome of that flight, nor do you have the ultimate responsibility. Only the pilot in command has that, and that extends to you and your equipment, as well as the conduct of the flight, and the results of what he drops from that aircraft. That includes YOU.



I know a lot of S&TA's who might beg to differ with you on that. USPA takes safety very seriously (and fun very seriously, too).



I've never liked that term; it's one of ignorance. We're fun jumpers, skydivers, parachutists, even wing and body pilots...but we are not "meat bombs."

I've spent time in intensive care following a malfunction; I've been hurt, and I've had some great times jumping. I'm not a "meat bomb." I'm a human being, and every person on that flight is someone who has a life, too. At the DZ, nobody cares if you're a doctor, lawyer, or ditch digger; everyone is the same at the DZ. Skydiving is every bit as much a part of aviation as any other aspect of the industry.

Skydiving is regulated. Read 14 CFR 105.

Skydivers aren't issued licenses by the FAA. That doesn't mean that jump operations aren't regulated.

Actually NO, some people do not know. I was referencing the mod who said that a USPA license is mandatory for any jumping, and all DZs require this. This is NOT true.

Yes, a reserve data card will cover the skydiver's equipment concerns, like I said before. It assures that it is TSO'd equipment, is a dual parachute system, and the reserve is in date. If the pilot sees the card he can cross off a ton of stuff on the part 105 list.

Did you read anything I said? About the part where I 100% have a ride to altitude already, and I am simply talking in this thread to support skydivers, and the idea that it is ok to take jumpers. So no, I am not trying to scam anyone, beg for a ride, get something for myself, or whatever other things you can come up with.
Why would you say that I am not a pilot? I do have a few hours, but once I started skydiving I didn't look back. Maybe some day.

PIC- You obviously didn't read my post where I told the pilot considering taking a jumper that HE is the PIC, and to not do anything he was uncomfortable with.

Did you not notice how I have stated several times that the pilot is the only one who has a certificate that can be pulled? I made it very clear that I understand this.

I am sure you are enjoying pretending to school me on all of these things, the part I like the most though is the fact that you haven't read anything I said, and then pretend to know everything about me, and my motives.

The PIC is responsible for those he takes up. The skydiver who kills themselves doesn't affect anyone else, but the pilot who doesn't preflight his plane and takes off with bad fuel or no fuel, then proceeds to try to turn back to the airport and stalls killing everyone, isn't just taking himself. It seems like 90% of jump aircraft crashes involve major pilot mistakes, and the NTSB's special investigation agrees with this, as they have recommended increased pilot training and aircraft maintenance.
This is why I mentioned that I am more concerned about the ride to altitude than the skydive.

Anyways, I doubt I will be coming back to this thread. If all of your posts are like the one above, I am sure you have a great following around here.... Maybe it is time to get off the computer and make a jump.

 

[DouglasBader]

I am sure you are enjoying pretending to school me on all of these things, the part I like the most though is the fact that you haven't read anything I said, and then pretend to know everything about me, and my motives.

I don't care about your motives: I read and quoted what you wrote. That was good enough.

I'm a jumper too. I'm also a pilot and instructor. Your'e asking pilots to fly for you. Therefore, the issue isn't your motive or what you want, but what's appropriate for the pilot and what the pilot needs to know.

You became defensive early on, were impatient, and still have an attitude. You're not one I'd let in my aircraft, nor would I recommend anyone here do so either.

 

[jesse]

Actually NO, some people do not know. I was referencing the mod who said that a USPA license is mandatory for any jumping, and all DZs require this. This is NOT true.

Could you please show me were I said that? I think you're reading what was never written.

That said any respectable drop zone is going to require jumpers to have USPA licenses and I highly doubt any drop zone would get insured in the United States without treating USPA rules as gospel.

 

[longwaytofall]

Doug- you quotes several things out of context, and I responded to reinforce what I said. Example: Seeing a reserve data card covers any equipment concern. You took this and pretended I was stating that all a jump pilot needed to do was check a reserve card, and he was ready to take up jumpers. It is not worth my time to deal with someone who cannot read or understand what someone says, and instead would rather make their own agenda.

 

[longwaytofall]

Jesse- post 22 paragraph one. Everything you said is incorrect except the last sentence, which is still a bit iffy. The FAA doesn't care too much usually when a jumper goes in.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The FAA doesn't care too much usually when a jumper goes in.

The FAA may not care about the jumper who buys the farm..... But you can bet cash money they are going to be all up in the bidness of the airplane (and pilot flying it) that the jumper came from.

 

[jesse]

Jesse- post 22 paragraph one. Everything you said is incorrect except the last sentence, which is still a bit iffy. The FAA doesn't care too much usually when a jumper goes in.

My post was in reference to Steingars post that I quoted. I was referring to the FAA breathing down his neck as the pilot in command of the aircraft which they will indeed do if any of the fault was his by any imagination of the FAA. As to the rest that you claim is wrong we're going to have to agree to disagree.

It seems you're reading statements in this thread without taking in the context of whom the person was addressing and quoting.

 

[DouglasBader]

The FAA doesn't care too much usually when a jumper goes in.

Entirely untrue. Ever been involved with a bounce or skydiving fatality? I have.

You seem to be quite the authority on what the FAA will or won't do, given that you started flying, and quit.

Doug- you quotes several things out of context, and I responded to reinforce what I said. Example: Seeing a reserve data card covers any equipment concern. You took this and pretended I was stating that all a jump pilot needed to do was check a reserve card, and he was ready to take up jumpers. It is not worth my time to deal with someone who cannot read or understand what someone says, and instead would rather make their own agenda.

I quoted you, and didn't at all do so out of context. That you were given far more discussion than you deserved exemplifies that. Youv'e been given more than context. You've been offensive, defensive, and wrong, and have stated clearly that you're interested in your own agenda, and whatever you can get a pilot to do for you.

You're either ignorant of the facts or have lied about them. Either you're inexperienced enough not to know the difference, or you're happy to pull the wool over a pilot/owner's eyes long enough to get your jollies, and move on. Your information has been inconsistent and wrong. You posted one day, then posted again wanting to know why you had no takers...only a day later. You're impatient, unsafe, and unwilling to face your own inconsistencies. Even your announcement that you're done with the thread wasn't accurate, was it?

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Join the Army...go Airborne. You'll never have this problem.

 

[DouglasBader]

Ironically, I was involved with an operation that flew aircraft with hot seats; a training device was available to qualify for the seats, but we were also informed that we'd need to qualify under canopy. As the operation was based at a location involving special operations, I hoped we would simply be put on a training load, but it wasn't to be.

They used a simulator for the canopy training...virtual suspension. How ridiculous is that?

 

[denverpilot]

From AvWeb this morning:

Pilot Ensures Skydivers Jump Before Crash


A young Illinois skydive-plane pilot who died Saturday in a crash in Taylorville, Ill., is being hailed as a hero after he ensured his load of 12 jumpers got out safely before he tried unsuccessfully to save himself. Brandon Sparrow, 30, of Augusta, Ill., has been identified as the pilot. Circumstances of the crash are still sketchy but there have been unconfirmed reports that there was no post-crash fire or explosion after the Beech 18 crashed in the back yard of a home.

Authorities said debris from the crash was spread over two to three blocks of a residential neighborhood. They don't know whether it was luck or the pilot's final efforts that kept the big twin from hitting any houses. No one on the ground was hurt. Sparrow was married with no children.

 

[longwaytofall]

The pilot of the beech 18 had no clue what he was doing... Took off fully loaded downwind in 15mph, barely cleared trees. That was just the beginning. At the very least, the pilot didn't have a clue what he was doing...