Here's how you do it

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Jaybird180, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    There's a difference between understanding principles and following technique by rote. Sometimes they intersect and I like when that happens, but I spend my focus more on the underlying why.

    In this case, I got back into a Skylane. Been many years since I've been in one and all I had to go on was my experience and the couple hours I spent with the POH the night before.

    During the flight I figured out a few things that will help me the next time and at the end of this post will come a question for more experienced Skylane pilots who know the numbers and settings.

    - 45 degree steep turns: I found that by starting near Va, I could roll into a 45degree coordinated bank, roll in 2 turns of trim and +2" MP and she held there, pretty much hands-off. I don't really consider 45 degrees as steep, but hey that's the PTS, it doesn't get fun until you get to 60 degrees
    - Cruise to Slow flight transition 1-1/2 roll of trim. I don't recall the power changes

    Landing- I flew final at 75kts. The guy in the right seat didn't like the sight picture as I began to transition to idle power and though there was a risk of hitting the nose gear. I didn't think so, but I understand his concern.

    What speed would you recommend for short final, full flaps?
     
  2. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC En-Route

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    75 knots is fast IMO. I fly final at 70 mph and carry a touch of power all the way down. Flaps 30 is my SOP, 20 if it's windy, 40 only if I really need it.
     
  3. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route

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    In our 182 I like 20 deg flaps most days. 40 if really have to stop on a dime. 20 deg flaps will allow you to have that better sight picture so you can really flare gently and bleed those last few mph. Got to keep that nose gear safe. 182 likes nose heavy. Our plane prior to me joining had a firewall incident due to slamming on the nose gear.
     
  4. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    You're right. Faulty memory is to blame. I flew final at 70kts, which is still darn faster than 1.3VSo. In retrospect I should have done a few more stalls to get a sense of the stall speed and characteristics. I recall seeing the airspeed tape whiz past 55 and we still didn't have a buffet yet.
     
  5. Unkljohn

    Unkljohn Pre-Flight

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    I use full flaps and 65 knots
     
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  6. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    I fly final at 30 degrees flaps and 75mph indicated, which works out to about 65kias. Slow to about 70 over the fence (or in the case of VKX, over the creek on 24 or over the berm on 6). A little weight in the baggage will shift the CoG aft and help with getting the appropriate attitude for flair and touchdown.
     
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  7. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Pattern Altitude

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    Nothing personal, but I'd guess he is right. Its far easier to judge such things when you aren't the one flying. I've been the "guy in the right seat", giving a 182 owner a FR after some time away. His first landing I could clearly feel the airplane wheelbarrowing on landing and mentioned he may want to flare more and get the nose up. He wanted to argue the point, but I made him do it again, this time with more pitch up in the flare. His directional control issue from the first landing suddenly disappeared.

    In planes like the 182, Cherokee 6 or Comanche, the site picture can be quite deceiving and you need far more nose up than you realize. The best way to tell is does the airplane pitch down after touching down, or did the pitch attitude stay the same? If it stayed the same, you three pointed the landing.
     
  8. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    I've got no argument about it. My technique might be non-standard. The technique that I was taught that I've been using for a long time (I'm open to change) is to go from a nose-down attitude, power to idle, round-out to level attitude a few feet above the runway (correct for any crosswind drift) and FLARE when the airplane begins to look for it's feet. I've generally had nice landings using this method in every type I've landed. The Skylane is the only one that requires more nose up trim that I've flown.
     
  9. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    I configure and trim for Va but I don't add trim once I start the turn.
    When it's not too gusty I do 65-70kts, flaps 30 and am mindful not to cut power too early. If the yoke isn't all the way back to the stops and the plane isn't teetering on the mains when the nosewheel touches down then I go back and reconsider how I can do better.
     
  10. smv

    smv Cleared for Takeoff

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    During ME training I had a CFI tell me "I cannot fly steep turns worth a damn, but the airplane sure can!" He would fly steep turns hands-free by trimming immediately upon reaching target bank.

    I am a huge advocate of using trim when appropriate. It does, however, drive me crazy when flying with a pilot who is always fiddling with the elevator trim.
     
  11. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    A common problem I have seen is the improper use of rudder in a steep turn, especially on a right turn. In a left turn, you can get away with not using much rudder. On a right turn, typically the pilot will establish the bank, pitch and power, and halfway through the turn notice that the ball is off center. So he might step on the right rudder to make this corrrection. This will pitch the nose down, requiring more elevator and more power, and he will be fighting the controls all the way to the end.
     
  12. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    What speed is 1.3 Vso in a typical Skylane?
     
  13. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    52kts in mine. I fly final at 60kts and bleed off as I get closer to touchdown
     
  14. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    In the 182S, Vso is 49KCAS or 35KIAS so 1.3x would be 64KCAS or 60KIAS.
     
  15. allPrimes

    allPrimes Filing Flight Plan

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    Very low-time student here, but is the correction for this to simply apply more right rudder at the start of the turn? Or are you implying that some pilots aren't using right rudder at all in these situations?
     
  16. smv

    smv Cleared for Takeoff

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    KEEP it coordinated from the beginning. Do coordination rolls (often mistakenly called "Dutch Rolls" by the misinformed) in any airplane you fly until you are completely familiar with exactly how much rudder is required to stay coordinated. Even when moving between different tail numbers of the same exact model. Each airplane will fly a little bit differently and require different amounts of rudder.

    Edit to add: Properly executed, coordination rolls are a 100% visual maneuver and none of the instruments are required to be successful. You will know immediately through visual cues whether or not you are doing them correctly.
     
  17. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    Thanks @asicer and @ktup-flyer .

    My 182P w/front mounted elevator canards is not much different actually. Final is 60 kts indicated for a normal approach. (55 kts for short field work.). Even though Vso is 45 kts for me, lol.

    I think some of the flatness in the 182 landings, in addition to “heavy nose”, are also caused by the dang ridiculously high instrument panel...to do it properly at flare means I lose sight of the runway end over the glareshield momentarily (I’m short).

    Coming in too fast also causes flat or bounced landings for me, unless I plan and accept a long float and let the plane land when it runs out of lift.

    Practice getting the stall horn to talk to ya before wheels touch.
     
  18. smv

    smv Cleared for Takeoff

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    This is a valid point. I use two different seat positions when piloting a high wing Cessna. High position for VFR and low position for IFR.
     
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  19. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    I hadn't considered that. I noticed that the glare shield on the glass cockpit bird I was flying was lower than I remember from flying the analog gauged models. I didn't have to fiddle with the seat height and had very good forward visibility.
     
  20. smv

    smv Cleared for Takeoff

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    Have not been in a high-wing Cessna with a glass panel. A few Diamonds and Pipers, however... With the DA42 there was no adjusting the seat and you got what you got. I think in a high-wing Cessna I would likely have the seat in "VFR" position beause there is no paralex on the glass like there is on the steam gauges and needing to see it dead-on is less critical.
     
  21. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    Rudder should be used momentarily as you roll in to the turn to counteract the adverse yaw, and then again in a sustained manner as you increase pitch and power. It has to be done in anticipation rather than after the fact.