Here's a story….of what NOT to do. (a bit of a rant)

MarkZ

MarkZ

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Mark
This may or may not have happened recently. I am being vague to protect the guilty. Apologies in advance if the post seems a bit...snarky.

Busy class B airport reporting IFR weather. Bad IFR weather. 700 foot ceilings, 3/4 mile visibility blowing snow, IFR weather. Nearby reporting stations report the same weather. PIREP's all morning talk about moderate icing in the climb with tops near FL250. Only the air carriers and biz jets are flying in this muck today. ATC doesn't see VFR targets or light GA aircraft on a day like today.

Our flight data coordinator has a few proposal strips (aircraft that filed an IFR flight plan but haven't gotten a clearance) for our surrounding uncontrolled airports. All day long they've been timing out. Most likely people deciding it's better to wait a day instead of trying to brave this muck. No big deal. After seeing how bad the weather is, it's a smart decision.

We observe an aircraft depart an uncontrolled airport 20 miles west of our primary airport on a VFR code. The "VFR" aircraft departed heading towards several aircraft vectored to an instrument approach. We (the entire radar room) observe the aircraft turn to the north, then to the west, and then the southwest all while flying about 500-1000 feet below our minimum vectoring altitudes.

Turns out this aircraft was one of our proposals, a Colombia going a few states west. The aircraft calls up our departure/satellite controller and asks for an immediate IFR clearance. Since the flight strip with this aircraft's information is at flight data (a 30 foot walk away), the departure/satellite controller told the aircraft to maintain VFR and stand by.

The pilot said in response, "just out of curiosity, what minimum vectoring altitude do you guys have to use out here?" The departure controller told him the MVA, and re-stated to the pilot to maintain VFR. The pilot responded with a simple roger (but magically climbed up to the MVA altitude).

After about a minute, controller gives the IFR clearance, ships aircraft to next sector, and a room full of controllers have great fodder for conversation. One guy mentioned how that could have turned into making the news easily, which led me to write up a few things we talked about:

<rant>

1) ATC don't like stupid. Stupid hurts. Stupid can kill. The time you save by departing into marginal, or (worse) into IFR conditions can create a huge distraction for you. You can hit stationary (obstructions) or non-stationary (aircraft) objects. Contrary to belief, ATC isn't sitting here with your flight plan ready, just itching for you to call so we can issue a clearance. We got stuff to do, like keep planes already in the system from hitting each other. But when you do stupid, you distract us from what we got to do. Because now we do what little we can to make sure your stupid doesn't kill.

2) When the stupid urge hits you, asking "innocent" questions tells us, "Hi! I'm stupid! I'm in the soup and I know I can't maintain VFR. But I'm gonna be crafty stupid and ask a 'curious' question so I don't kill myself!" When the weather is marginal or hard IFR and we are asked for a "vector to the airport" or "what's your MVA" we know you aren't curious. We ain't stupid.

3) Stupid not only kills, it creates anarchy. The ATC system works because it's orderly. When you call for clearance on the ground, we find a spot for you in the system. Granted, on a snow day, a small delay could allow snow to accumulate on your wings. Taking off VFR into hard IMC could take care of the snow issue, but now you're flying blind and hoping the controller isn't busy. Turns out, the controller wasn't busy - this time. 10 minutes earlier, he was up to his neck in airplanes. Lucky timing.

And last but not least...

4) When you are stupid and it works, it's blind luck. We could call it "stupid" luck. But it's nothing more. As stupid luck goes, this Columbia was 2 miles from getting into an Airbus 320's grill if he kept climbing. Keep being stupid and luck runs out. When it does, your stupid might take you out. If your stupid luck runs out the wrong way, it might take an A320 with you.

Please. Pretty please. Take the extra five minutes. Use some cell minutes. Do it the right way.

Or if weather is a factor, just don't go.

Thanks.

</rant>
 
MarkZ said:
This may or may not have happened recently. I am being vague to protect the guilty. Apologies in advance if the post seems a bit...snarky.

Busy class B airport reporting IFR weather. Bad IFR weather. 700 foot ceilings, 3/4 mile visibility blowing snow, IFR weather. Nearby reporting stations report the same weather. PIREP's all morning talk about moderate icing in the climb with tops near FL250. Only the air carriers and biz jets are flying in this muck today. ATC doesn't see VFR targets or light GA aircraft on a day like today.

Our flight data coordinator has a few proposal strips (aircraft that filed an IFR flight plan but haven't gotten a clearance) for our surrounding uncontrolled airports. All day long they've been timing out. Most likely people deciding it's better to wait a day instead of trying to brave this muck. No big deal. After seeing how bad the weather is, it's a smart decision.

We observe an aircraft depart an uncontrolled airport 20 miles west of our primary airport on a VFR code. The "VFR" aircraft departed heading towards several aircraft vectored to an instrument approach. We (the entire radar room) observe the aircraft turn to the north, then to the west, and then the southwest all while flying about 500-1000 feet below our minimum vectoring altitudes.

Turns out this aircraft was one of our proposals, a Colombia going a few states west. The aircraft calls up our departure/satellite controller and asks for an immediate IFR clearance. Since the flight strip with this aircraft's information is at flight data (a 30 foot walk away), the departure/satellite controller told the aircraft to maintain VFR and stand by.

The pilot said in response, "just out of curiosity, what minimum vectoring altitude do you guys have to use out here?" The departure controller told him the MVA, and re-stated to the pilot to maintain VFR. The pilot responded with a simple roger (but magically climbed up to the MVA altitude).

After about a minute, controller gives the IFR clearance, ships aircraft to next sector, and a room full of controllers have great fodder for conversation. One guy mentioned how that could have turned into making the news easily, which led me to write up a few things we talked about:

<rant>

1) ATC don't like stupid. Stupid hurts. Stupid can kill. The time you save by departing into marginal, or (worse) into IFR conditions can create a huge distraction for you. You can hit stationary (obstructions) or non-stationary (aircraft) objects. Contrary to belief, ATC isn't sitting here with your flight plan ready, just itching for you to call so we can issue a clearance. We got stuff to do, like keep planes already in the system from hitting each other. But when you do stupid, you distract us from what we got to do. Because now we do what little we can to make sure your stupid doesn't kill.

2) When the stupid urge hits you, asking "innocent" questions tells us, "Hi! I'm stupid! I'm in the soup and I know I can't maintain VFR. But I'm gonna be crafty stupid and ask a 'curious' question so I don't kill myself!" When the weather is marginal or hard IFR and we are asked for a "vector to the airport" or "what's your MVA" we know you aren't curious. We ain't stupid.

3) Stupid not only kills, it creates anarchy. The ATC system works because it's orderly. When you call for clearance on the ground, we find a spot for you in the system. Granted, on a snow day, a small delay could allow snow to accumulate on your wings. Taking off VFR into hard IMC could take care of the snow issue, but now you're flying blind and hoping the controller isn't busy. Turns out, the controller wasn't busy - this time. 10 minutes earlier, he was up to his neck in airplanes. Lucky timing.

And last but not least...

4) When you are stupid and it works, it's blind luck. We could call it "stupid" luck. But it's nothing more. As stupid luck goes, this Columbia was 2 miles from getting into an Airbus 320's grill if he kept climbing. Keep being stupid and luck runs out. When it does, your stupid might take you out. If your stupid luck runs out the wrong way, it might take an A320 with you.

Please. Pretty please. Take the extra five minutes. Use some cell minutes. Do it the right way.

Or if weather is a factor, just don't go.

Thanks.

</rant>
Click to expand...

This cr*p has been going on continuously for 55 years that I know of and probably longer.
 
Stupid is as stupid does,what can you say.
 
Here's my favorite from years back. I left KADS into hard rain and low ceilings headed East. I was in route to Tyler and in SOLID IFR the whole way. I never saw the ground except just above minimums on the approach.

Anyway as I'm in route I hear a guy come up on the radio and ask, "Ya'll got any towers round here?".
The controller says, "Yup, sure do".
"Well how big are they?".
"Bigger than you, are you VFR?".
"We're VFR, but were having to use our whiskers just a little".
"OK, most aircraft are reporting IMC, would you like us to get you a clearance?"
"Nope, we're just headed over to a buddies ranch to watch the ball game"
"You have no towers directly in your current flight path, maintain VFR"
"Always do"

If that guy was VFR he was about 100 AGL. I never forgot that exchange it just seemed so crazy.
 
Did you write him up for a PD?:rofl:
 
MarkZ said:
This may or may not have happened recently. I am being vague to protect the guilty. Apologies in advance if the post seems a bit...snarky.

.......
Please. Pretty please. Take the extra five minutes. Use some cell minutes. Do it the right way.

Or if weather is a factor, just don't go.

Thanks.

</rant>
Click to expand...

I like your style and comments... I know we butt heads sometimes , but.... If we ever meet,,, I am buying the first, and maybe the second round of adult beverages...:yes:

:cheers:
 
Alexb2000 said:
Here's my favorite from years back. I left KADS into hard rain and low ceilings headed East. I was in route to Tyler and in SOLID IFR the whole way. I never saw the ground except just above minimums on the approach.

Anyway as I'm in route I hear a guy come up on the radio and ask, "Ya'll got any towers round here?".
The controller says, "Yup, sure do".
"Well how big are they?".
"Bigger than you, are you VFR?".
"We're VFR, but were having to use our whiskers just a little".
"OK, most aircraft are reporting IMC, would you like us to get you a clearance?"
"Nope, we're just headed over to a buddies ranch to watch the ball game"
"You have no towers directly in your current flight path, maintain VFR"
"Always do"

If that guy was VFR he was about 100 AGL. I never forgot that exchange it just seemed so crazy.
Click to expand...

A guy I knew worked for an outfit that must have been run by a guy with a big mustache. They had a company field (grass strip, VFR only) with "Company Approaches." No plate, and not even stepdown fixes, certainly no glide path, and mins were equal to Cat IIIC. Anyway, one day I was in the Aztec having departed on an VV001 day for 100 miles around and I heard him going into the company grass field. "Field in sight, visual approach, cancel IFR." Response from ATC: "Uhh... ok..."

Drives me nuts as well.
 
Thanks for the post Mark.
Yep Stuid pilots gives us all a bid name!
 
N801BH said:
I like your style and comments... I know we butt heads sometimes , but.... If we ever meet,,, I am buying the first, and maybe the second round of adult beverages...:yes:

:cheers:
Click to expand...

Definitely!
 
Fortunately, this isn't a regular occurrence. At least in my neck of the woods. But when a pilot goes "stupid" I guarantee you the controller is wondering if he/she will end up talking to the NTSB...
 
Can you turn him in for it? Seems if you're sure it would be the thing to do.
 
Swampfox201 said:
Can you turn him in for it? Seems if you're sure it would be the thing to do.
Click to expand...

No. There is no way for me to prove whether or not someone is flying in VFR weather. No matter the automated weather reports, and PIREPs.

Common sense be dammed.

Personally, I don't like turning pilots in. Mistakes happen. But that doesn't mean I won't do it if necessary.
 
I hope the FSDO has this write up so they can talk to the damn fool.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Here's my favorite from years back. I left KADS into hard rain and low ceilings headed East. I was in route to Tyler and in SOLID IFR the whole way. I never saw the ground except just above minimums on the approach.

Anyway as I'm in route I hear a guy come up on the radio and ask, "Ya'll got any towers round here?".
The controller says, "Yup, sure do".
"Well how big are they?".
"Bigger than you, are you VFR?".
"We're VFR, but were having to use our whiskers just a little".
"OK, most aircraft are reporting IMC, would you like us to get you a clearance?"
"Nope, we're just headed over to a buddies ranch to watch the ball game"
"You have no towers directly in your current flight path, maintain VFR"
"Always do"

If that guy was VFR he was about 100 AGL. I never forgot that exchange it just seemed so crazy.
Click to expand...

Something worse happened to me sometime ago , with a bit of shame I will describe the events in case someone can benefit from this (bad) experience.
I was an 18 hour SP and departed VFR with my CFI, full fuel and 2 adult passengers my CFI brought along in a C172. Definitely out of limits but I wasn't aware of that, he said it was fine. We went to the coastline and decided to descend to the minimum altitude of 500ft. Soon after visibility decreased due to fog so he said "go down"; I asked to turn back but the answer was "no". So we went to 400 but it became worse, then 300 and I kept on requesting to turn back. finally we might have been at about 100 and we ran into complete IFR. I started to panic; however, he did not take control. I remembered from the charts that there were high mountains straight ahead as well as irregular terrain. When you are in panic the level of consciousness turns into tunnel vision, but at least I had enough tunnel vision to control 2-3 instruments and take the decision to head North, into open ocean where we would be safe. With zero training in instrument flying I decided to climb at a very slow 200 fpm and bank at no more than 7º-10º to the right. At this point my shirt was completely wet, the passengers were dead silent and the CFI seemed to be amused !!!!. After 10-15 min minutes we were above the layer and in clear skies. A huge mountain was right behind and at a higher altitude. It was the CFIs first time in cloud as well !!!!!!!!!!.
I still think the mistakes were mine despite the fact that the CFI should have lost his license for ever. Even as a low hour student I should have checked the W&B myself and, if out of limits, cancel the flight or reduce the number of passengers. On the other hand, if I am convinced that we are in danger, turn around regardless of the instructions of the CFI. Similar events are shown in MAYDAY and AIR CRASH INVESTIGATION, where the copilot was aware of the mistakes of the PIC but would not or was unable to challenge authority. It is a very difficult psychological barrier to overcome and we need more investigation in this field.
In my profession I deal with emergencies very often, this helped me to maintain a minimal level of control of the mind but the chances of surviving an event like this are 1 out of 10 as I have been told.
 
ARQUERO said:
Something worse happened to me sometime ago , with a bit of shame I will describe the events in case someone can benefit from this (bad) experience.
I was an 18 hour SP and departed VFR with my CFI, full fuel and 2 adult passengers my CFI brought along in a C172. Definitely out of limits but I wasn't aware of that, he said it was fine. We went to the coastline and decided to descend to the minimum altitude of 500ft. Soon after visibility decreased due to fog so he said "go down"; I asked to turn back but the answer was "no". So we went to 400 but it became worse, then 300 and I kept on requesting to turn back. finally we might have been at about 100 and we ran into complete IFR. I started to panic; however, he did not take control. I remembered from the charts that there were high mountains straight ahead as well as irregular terrain. When you are in panic the level of consciousness turns into tunnel vision, but at least I had enough tunnel vision to control 2-3 instruments and take the decision to head North, into open ocean where we would be safe. With zero training in instrument flying I decided to climb at a very slow 200 fpm and bank at no more than 7º-10º to the right. At this point my shirt was completely wet, the passengers were dead silent and the CFI seemed to be amused !!!!. After 10-15 min minutes we were above the layer and in clear skies. A huge mountain was right behind and at a higher altitude. It was the CFIs first time in cloud as well !!!!!!!!!!.
I still think the mistakes were mine despite the fact that the CFI should have lost his license for ever. Even as a low hour student I should have checked the W&B myself and, if out of limits, cancel the flight or reduce the number of passengers. On the other hand, if I am convinced that we are in danger, turn around regardless of the instructions of the CFI. Similar events are shown in MAYDAY and AIR CRASH INVESTIGATION, where the copilot was aware of the mistakes of the PIC but would not or was unable to challenge authority. It is a very difficult psychological barrier to overcome and we need more investigation in this field.
In my profession I deal with emergencies very often, this helped me to maintain a minimal level of control of the mind but the chances of surviving an event like this are 1 out of 10 as I have been told.
Click to expand...

First you did a hell of a job, thanks for sharing.

Having the situational awareness to know where you are and get out of that is a rare quality.

I am actually thankful for those kinds of experiences, if you have any sense then you will never repeat them. Hard lessons are well learned.

I agree that "CFI" needs his wings clipped.
 
ARQUERO said:
Something worse happened to me sometime ago , with a bit of shame I will describe the events in case someone can benefit from this (bad) experience.
I was an 18 hour SP and departed VFR with my CFI, full fuel and 2 adult passengers my CFI brought along in a C172. Definitely out of limits but I wasn't aware of that, he said it was fine. We went to the coastline and decided to descend to the minimum altitude of 500ft. Soon after visibility decreased due to fog so he said "go down"; I asked to turn back but the answer was "no". So we went to 400 but it became worse, then 300 and I kept on requesting to turn back. finally we might have been at about 100 and we ran into complete IFR. I started to panic; however, he did not take control. I remembered from the charts that there were high mountains straight ahead as well as irregular terrain. When you are in panic the level of consciousness turns into tunnel vision, but at least I had enough tunnel vision to control 2-3 instruments and take the decision to head North, into open ocean where we would be safe. With zero training in instrument flying I decided to climb at a very slow 200 fpm and bank at no more than 7º-10º to the right. At this point my shirt was completely wet, the passengers were dead silent and the CFI seemed to be amused !!!!. After 10-15 min minutes we were above the layer and in clear skies. A huge mountain was right behind and at a higher altitude. It was the CFIs first time in cloud as well !!!!!!!!!!.
I still think the mistakes were mine despite the fact that the CFI should have lost his license for ever. Even as a low hour student I should have checked the W&B myself and, if out of limits, cancel the flight or reduce the number of passengers. On the other hand, if I am convinced that we are in danger, turn around regardless of the instructions of the CFI. Similar events are shown in MAYDAY and AIR CRASH INVESTIGATION, where the copilot was aware of the mistakes of the PIC but would not or was unable to challenge authority. It is a very difficult psychological barrier to overcome and we need more investigation in this field.
In my profession I deal with emergencies very often, this helped me to maintain a minimal level of control of the mind but the chances of surviving an event like this are 1 out of 10 as I have been told.
Click to expand...
If "SP" means "student pilot" (and I assume it does, I don't think you can get a Sport Pilot with only 18 hours), then the only mistake you made was choosing that CFI. He was PIC, you were a student, all the responsibility -- and the mistakes --- were his. I hope you told someone about him -- like maybe the FSDO. I don't normally advocate turning people in to the FAA, but this guy sounds like a true bad apple who needs weeding out.

Good job, and it sounds like a good lesson learned.
 
Two kind-of similar stories:

1) About a month ago, I'm cross-country in a hilly area where radar coverage starts fairly high -- 3000-4000 AGL. Ceilings were pretty low, around 500 OVC, with rain. While on Center I hear a Cessna pop up with "N1234 looking to open our IFR." Center responds, "Airplane calling, what's your identifier, where are you?" The Cessna responds again with the N-number, location, altitude, heading. Center responds to a little bizjet like a Phenom with, "[Bizjet], execute immediate right turn, expedite climb and maintain XXXX". The Center controller proceeds to explain to the Cessna that he had a *void time*, which had long since expired, and with the void expired a jet was now performing the approach to the field, and the direction of flight was reciprocal to the heading the Cessna was now taking and reporting in -- all in an area where low radar coverage was not possible -- the controller was blind and depended on everyone following the program. The Cessna driver responds that he thought the void time meant he couldn't take off until that time??!?! The Center controller was polite (way too much so, IMO) and explained that multiple planes were vectored out of his path, one approach was cancelled, and the situation in general was extremely dangerous. To my surprise, nothing else was said -- like "call this number upon landing", etc...

2) Much further in a the past, I'm talking to a VFR-only pilot after landing in overcast conditions -- i.e. 1500 OVC. The VFR pilot had been flying too. I assume scud-running. He then says something like "I was up at 5500...". What? How did you get in and land VFR in a solid OVC layer? "Well I entered the clouds back at [town 100 miles away] and didn't want to call up approach and get in trouble." So I ask, "you just climbed back out and found a hole?" The guy says, "No, I just stayed there until conditions improved." I ask, "How long did you stay IMC?" He responds, "ABOUT THIRTY MINUTES!" I ask if he was scared to death of killing himself, or running into someone else. "No, I've safety-piloted for a bunch of instrument pilots, and was fine flying the **DG** and keeping a constant heading (!!!). I figured the controllers could see me showing 1200 and would keep other planes away from me."


As far as VFR into IMC events, those two are the worst I've personally witnessed.
 
Martymccasland said:
Two kind-of similar stories:

1) About a month ago, I'm cross-country in a hilly area where radar coverage starts fairly high -- 3000-4000 AGL. Ceilings were pretty low, around 500 OVC, with rain. While on Center I hear a Cessna pop up with "N1234 looking to open our IFR." Center responds, "Airplane calling, what's your identifier, where are you?" The Cessna responds again with the N-number, location, altitude, heading. Center responds to a little bizjet like a Phenom with, "[Bizjet], execute immediate right turn, expedite climb and maintain XXXX". The Center controller proceeds to explain to the Cessna that he had a *void time*, which had long since expired, and with the void expired a jet was now performing the approach to the field, and the direction of flight was reciprocal to the heading the Cessna was now taking and reporting in -- all in an area where low radar coverage was not possible -- the controller was blind and depended on everyone following the program. The Cessna driver responds that he thought the void time meant he couldn't take off until that time??!?! The Center controller was polite (way too much so, IMO) and explained that multiple planes were vectored out of his path, one approach was cancelled, and the situation in general was extremely dangerous. To my surprise, nothing else was said -- like "call this number upon landing", etc...
Click to expand...
My first thought was, this guy doesn't have an instrument rating. But then on second thought, there are a few (maybe many, I'm not sure) instructors who only train for the circumstances encountered in training -- and if his training was all at towered fields, he may never have had to deal with a void time clearance. This is scary, but I can't say that I'm too surprised.

2) Much further in a the past, I'm talking to a VFR-only pilot after landing in overcast conditions -- i.e. 1500 OVC. The VFR pilot had been flying too. I assume scud-running. He then says something like "I was up at 5500...". What? How did you get in and land VFR in a solid OVC layer? "Well I entered the clouds back at [town 100 miles away] and didn't want to call up approach and get in trouble." So I ask, "you just climbed back out and found a hole?" The guy says, "No, I just stayed there until conditions improved." I ask, "How long did you stay IMC?" He responds, "ABOUT THIRTY MINUTES!" I ask if he was scared to death of killing himself, or running into someone else. "No, I've safety-piloted for a bunch of instrument pilots, and was fine flying the **DG** and keeping a constant heading (!!!). I figured the controllers could see me showing 1200 and would keep other planes away from me."
Click to expand...
I would assume he wasn't really just flying the DG, but keeping up a pretty decent scan. Also doesn't surprise me, this isn't rocket science and we shouldn't pretend that you need 25 hours + 15 flight training just to be able to keep from killing yourself in the clouds.

These are the pilots that really scare me when I'm in the muck... not afraid of IMC, and don't understand ATC services and their limitations, trusting in the "Big Sky Theory". Admittedly, that usually works... until it doesn't. :(
 
MarkZ said:
This may or may not have happened recently. I am being vague to protect the guilty. Apologies in advance if the post seems a bit...snarky.

Busy class B airport reporting IFR weather. Bad IFR weather. 700 foot ceilings, 3/4 mile visibility blowing snow, IFR weather. Nearby reporting stations report the same weather. PIREP's all morning talk about moderate icing in the climb with tops near FL250. Only the air carriers and biz jets are flying in this muck today. ATC doesn't see VFR targets or light GA aircraft on a day like today.

Our flight data coordinator has a few proposal strips (aircraft that filed an IFR flight plan but haven't gotten a clearance) for our surrounding uncontrolled airports. All day long they've been timing out. Most likely people deciding it's better to wait a day instead of trying to brave this muck. No big deal. After seeing how bad the weather is, it's a smart decision.

We observe an aircraft depart an uncontrolled airport 20 miles west of our primary airport on a VFR code. The "VFR" aircraft departed heading towards several aircraft vectored to an instrument approach. We (the entire radar room) observe the aircraft turn to the north, then to the west, and then the southwest all while flying about 500-1000 feet below our minimum vectoring altitudes.

Turns out this aircraft was one of our proposals, a Colombia going a few states west. The aircraft calls up our departure/satellite controller and asks for an immediate IFR clearance. Since the flight strip with this aircraft's information is at flight data (a 30 foot walk away), the departure/satellite controller told the aircraft to maintain VFR and stand by.

The pilot said in response, "just out of curiosity, what minimum vectoring altitude do you guys have to use out here?" The departure controller told him the MVA, and re-stated to the pilot to maintain VFR. The pilot responded with a simple roger (but magically climbed up to the MVA altitude).

After about a minute, controller gives the IFR clearance, ships aircraft to next sector, and a room full of controllers have great fodder for conversation. One guy mentioned how that could have turned into making the news easily, which led me to write up a few things we talked about:

<rant>

1) ATC don't like stupid. Stupid hurts. Stupid can kill. The time you save by departing into marginal, or (worse) into IFR conditions can create a huge distraction for you. You can hit stationary (obstructions) or non-stationary (aircraft) objects. Contrary to belief, ATC isn't sitting here with your flight plan ready, just itching for you to call so we can issue a clearance. We got stuff to do, like keep planes already in the system from hitting each other. But when you do stupid, you distract us from what we got to do. Because now we do what little we can to make sure your stupid doesn't kill.

2) When the stupid urge hits you, asking "innocent" questions tells us, "Hi! I'm stupid! I'm in the soup and I know I can't maintain VFR. But I'm gonna be crafty stupid and ask a 'curious' question so I don't kill myself!" When the weather is marginal or hard IFR and we are asked for a "vector to the airport" or "what's your MVA" we know you aren't curious. We ain't stupid.

3) Stupid not only kills, it creates anarchy. The ATC system works because it's orderly. When you call for clearance on the ground, we find a spot for you in the system. Granted, on a snow day, a small delay could allow snow to accumulate on your wings. Taking off VFR into hard IMC could take care of the snow issue, but now you're flying blind and hoping the controller isn't busy. Turns out, the controller wasn't busy - this time. 10 minutes earlier, he was up to his neck in airplanes. Lucky timing.

And last but not least...

4) When you are stupid and it works, it's blind luck. We could call it "stupid" luck. But it's nothing more. As stupid luck goes, this Columbia was 2 miles from getting into an Airbus 320's grill if he kept climbing. Keep being stupid and luck runs out. When it does, your stupid might take you out. If your stupid luck runs out the wrong way, it might take an A320 with you.

Please. Pretty please. Take the extra five minutes. Use some cell minutes. Do it the right way.

Or if weather is a factor, just don't go.

Thanks.

</rant>
Click to expand...

Appreciate the post. I fly out of PWK and you know what the weather has been like recently. I was supposed to go today for an IR training session, so yesterday pulled up the ORD TAF, didn't particularly like what I saw, and then called a briefer for more info. After we got to the comment about an airmet for icing, that sealed the deal and I cancelled the aircraft and instructor right then. Turns out, had we been stupid and gone, we would have not been able to get back to PWK.

Don't ever feel bad about such a posting like yours. It validates the behaviour of those of us who want to be safe and cautious.

Be warm and safe.
 
MarkZ said:
....Please. Pretty please. Take the extra five minutes. Use some cell minutes. Do it the right way.

Or if weather is a factor, just don't go.

Thanks.

</rant>
Click to expand...

Great rant and fascinating to learn about the other side of the radio. I often wonder what ATC controllers think about some of the stuff I see/do/hear. I'd love to hear more rants from you in the future.
 
azure said:
My first thought was, this guy doesn't have an instrument rating. But then on second thought, there are a few (maybe many, I'm not sure) instructors who only train for the circumstances encountered in training -- and if his training was all at towered fields, he may never have had to deal with a void time clearance. This is scary, but I can't say that I'm too surprised.


I would assume he wasn't really just flying the DG, but keeping up a pretty decent scan. Also doesn't surprise me, this isn't rocket science and we shouldn't pretend that you need 25 hours + 15 flight training just to be able to keep from killing yourself in the clouds.

These are the pilots that really scare me when I'm in the muck... not afraid of IMC, and don't understand ATC services and their limitations, trusting in the "Big Sky Theory". Admittedly, that usually works... until it doesn't. :(
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In response to the first situation, I can remember a big gap in my IR that got exposed one day. I was on an IFR plan in CAVU conditions to a towered field. The controller said, "...cleared visual approach...". I had no idea how to execute a "visual approach". All my IR training was either on an IAP, or cancelled in the air before landing, typically not terminating at a towered field. As you know, it's hammered into the IR student's brain that you can't turn, climb, descend, anything without ATC clearance. So when I was given the visual in a very busy airspace, I got a huge dose of humble and had to ask, "so I can descend to the field?" The ATC guy said with a sarcastic voice, "yes... that's what a visual approach means". 'Just had never at all practiced terminating CAVU missions on an IFR plan at towered fields up to the point. That's hundreds of hours and several years in the past, but I can promise I still hear that controller's voice in my head like it was yesterday.

All of that is to say maybe the void time issue with the pilot I heard was a similar situation. 'Just judging from the voice on the radio, the guy sounded mid-50s. Maybe it had been so long since getting a void time that he truly didn't know what it meant -- and didn't want to sound dumb and ask. What made it worse was he kept trying to explain himself to Center as if he could convince them a "void time" in his situation applied differently. I kept thinking, "shut up, quit digging your grave, land, and fill out that NASA form right away!"


In response to the second situation, I agree it's no big deal to survive IMC. However, with no training, the stats show it's quickly fatal for many. The guy in particular that talked of "flying the DG" stuck by his guns. Fascinated, I asked, "you mean the AI -- the half brown, half blue instrument, right?" "No, the heading -- I just held [something like 180] and if the heading started to change, I'd give it a little turn to get back." So I asked, "You were looking at the AI, too, right?" The guy, who was working on his IR written says, "no, the DG is the primary instrument so that is what I stared at". ???? I kept waiting for, "I'm pulling your leg.... sure I was watching the AI"... But it never came. Maybe he was doing more than he was letting on (or realized), but it became pretty clear the AI was barely relevant to him... And I remembered way back with my Private and flying around one day thinking, "hmmm, wonder what that [the AI] is for other than unusual situations"...

To this day, whenever I hear of a plane crash locally, I quickly get to Googling hoping it's not his name on the news report....
 
Martymccasland said:
In response to the first situation, I can remember a big gap in my IR that got exposed one day. I was on an IFR plan in CAVU conditions to a towered field. The controller said, "...cleared visual approach...". I had no idea how to execute a "visual approach". All my IR training was either on an IAP, or cancelled in the air before landing, typically not terminating at a towered field. As you know, it's hammered into the IR student's brain that you can't turn, climb, descend, anything without ATC clearance. So when I was given the visual in a very busy airspace, I got a huge dose of humble and had to ask, "so I can descend to the field?" The ATC guy said with a sarcastic voice, "yes... that's what a visual approach means". 'Just had never at all practiced terminating CAVU missions on an IFR plan at towered fields up to the point. That's hundreds of hours and several years in the past, but I can promise I still hear that controller's voice in my head like it was yesterday.
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Yes, that's a really good example, and you're right! In fact, that could have been me, since the meaning of "cleared visual approach" was never covered in my training either. (And I'm not exactly sure whether I knew for sure the first time I was given the visual, or guessed by analogy with other approach clearances -- I think I looked it up before my first flight in the system when I expected it.)

So yeah, there are probably lots of details that never get covered in our training, lots of holes that we only get filled through experience. And that could have been the case with your pilot too.

In response to the second situation, I agree it's no big deal to survive IMC. However, with no training, the stats show it's quickly fatal for many. The guy in particular that talked of "flying the DG" stuck by his guns. Fascinated, I asked, "you mean the AI -- the half brown, half blue instrument, right?" "No, the heading -- I just held [something like 180] and if the heading started to change, I'd give it a little turn to get back." So I asked, "You were looking at the AI, too, right?" The guy, who was working on his IR written says, "no, the DG is the primary instrument so that is what I stared at". ???? I kept waiting for, "I'm pulling your leg.... sure I was watching the AI"... But it never came. Maybe he was doing more than he was letting on (or realized), but it became pretty clear the AI was barely relevant to him... And I remembered way back with my Private and flying around one day thinking, "hmmm, wonder what that [the AI] is for other than unusual situations"...
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Or at least the TC, and the altimeter and/or VSI... now THAT makes me think the guy was actually letting Otto fly the plane and was BSing you to make himself feel more capable than he was. Probably most of the VFR-only scofflaws flying in the clouds do it that way. The ones who could really do it safely on their own know better (at least I hope so).
 
Martymccasland said:
In response to the first situation, I can remember a big gap in my IR that got exposed one day. I was on an IFR plan in CAVU conditions to a towered field. The controller said, "...cleared visual approach...". I had no idea how to execute a "visual approach". All my IR training was either on an IAP, or cancelled in the air before landing, typically not terminating at a towered field. As you know, it's hammered into the IR student's brain that you can't turn, climb, descend, anything without ATC clearance. So when I was given the visual in a very busy airspace, I got a huge dose of humble and had to ask, "so I can descend to the field?" The ATC guy said with a sarcastic voice, "yes... that's what a visual approach means". 'Just had never at all practiced terminating CAVU missions on an IFR plan at towered fields up to the point. That's hundreds of hours and several years in the past, but I can promise I still hear that controller's voice in my head like it was yesterday.
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a lot of the time when NY approach gives me a visual approach they say Cessna 12345, maintain 2000 until advised by tower, cleared visual approach runway XX. there is nothing wrong with clarification
 
jordane93 said:
a lot of the time when NY approach gives me a visual approach they say Cessna 12345, maintain 2000 until advised by tower, cleared visual approach runway XX. there is nothing wrong with clarification
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What airport do they do that into?
 
MarkZ said:
2) When the stupid urge hits you, asking "innocent" questions tells us, "Hi! I'm stupid! I'm in the soup and I know I can't maintain VFR. But I'm gonna be crafty stupid and ask a 'curious' question so I don't kill myself!" When the weather is marginal or hard IFR and we are asked for a "vector to the airport" or "what's your MVA" we know you aren't curious. We ain't stupid.
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Appreciate the rant; however, also appreciate when ATC "OFFERS" a vector even if not needed (i.e. am not local to Fullerton, but they have offered a vector on most of my 5 trips into their field).

My last trip to Fullerton was arriving from the north after visiting Yosemite (usually arrive from the east out of Texas). Haze was HORRIBLE with very late afternoon sun making things worse to define at the surface. Visibility was probably not that close to MVFR, but that field is hard to see and with the above limitations, and arriving from a new direction I had to lift a wing to block the sun in order to locate the runway at 3 miles and enter a right downwund (previous arrivals from the east I could cheat and have the localizer tuned and was alway told straight in final). That was the first arrival that a vector wasn't offered, and I was about to request one if the "sun-blocking" trick didn't work.

In short: sometimes pilots aren't stupid ... and visibility might be better than MVFR with other factors in force (non-local, sun position etc).
 
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What a story.

I'm sure, of course, that when he took off, he had a magic hole in the sky, so was well clear of clouds and precipitation. I'm glad he was curious--it's really great to be curious when you find yourself in the clouds with blowing snow, and wonder (only now) if there is a particular MVA that might keep you safe.

I bet he got his IR at K-Mart.

MarkZ said:
This may or may not have happened recently. I am being vague to protect the guilty. Apologies in advance if the post seems a bit...snarky.

Busy class B airport reporting IFR weather. Bad IFR weather. 700 foot ceilings, 3/4 mile visibility blowing snow, IFR weather. Nearby reporting stations report the same weather. PIREP's all morning talk about moderate icing in the climb with tops near FL250. Only the air carriers and biz jets are flying in this muck today. ATC doesn't see VFR targets or light GA aircraft on a day like today.

Our flight data coordinator has a few proposal strips (aircraft that filed an IFR flight plan but haven't gotten a clearance) for our surrounding uncontrolled airports. All day long they've been timing out. Most likely people deciding it's better to wait a day instead of trying to brave this muck. No big deal. After seeing how bad the weather is, it's a smart decision.

We observe an aircraft depart an uncontrolled airport 20 miles west of our primary airport on a VFR code. The "VFR" aircraft departed heading towards several aircraft vectored to an instrument approach. We (the entire radar room) observe the aircraft turn to the north, then to the west, and then the southwest all while flying about 500-1000 feet below our minimum vectoring altitudes.

Turns out this aircraft was one of our proposals, a Colombia going a few states west. The aircraft calls up our departure/satellite controller and asks for an immediate IFR clearance. Since the flight strip with this aircraft's information is at flight data (a 30 foot walk away), the departure/satellite controller told the aircraft to maintain VFR and stand by.

The pilot said in response, "just out of curiosity, what minimum vectoring altitude do you guys have to use out here?" The departure controller told him the MVA, and re-stated to the pilot to maintain VFR. The pilot responded with a simple roger (but magically climbed up to the MVA altitude).

After about a minute, controller gives the IFR clearance, ships aircraft to next sector, and a room full of controllers have great fodder for conversation. One guy mentioned how that could have turned into making the news easily, which led me to write up a few things we talked about:

<rant>

1) ATC don't like stupid. Stupid hurts. Stupid can kill. The time you save by departing into marginal, or (worse) into IFR conditions can create a huge distraction for you. You can hit stationary (obstructions) or non-stationary (aircraft) objects. Contrary to belief, ATC isn't sitting here with your flight plan ready, just itching for you to call so we can issue a clearance. We got stuff to do, like keep planes already in the system from hitting each other. But when you do stupid, you distract us from what we got to do. Because now we do what little we can to make sure your stupid doesn't kill.

2) When the stupid urge hits you, asking "innocent" questions tells us, "Hi! I'm stupid! I'm in the soup and I know I can't maintain VFR. But I'm gonna be crafty stupid and ask a 'curious' question so I don't kill myself!" When the weather is marginal or hard IFR and we are asked for a "vector to the airport" or "what's your MVA" we know you aren't curious. We ain't stupid.

3) Stupid not only kills, it creates anarchy. The ATC system works because it's orderly. When you call for clearance on the ground, we find a spot for you in the system. Granted, on a snow day, a small delay could allow snow to accumulate on your wings. Taking off VFR into hard IMC could take care of the snow issue, but now you're flying blind and hoping the controller isn't busy. Turns out, the controller wasn't busy - this time. 10 minutes earlier, he was up to his neck in airplanes. Lucky timing.

And last but not least...

4) When you are stupid and it works, it's blind luck. We could call it "stupid" luck. But it's nothing more. As stupid luck goes, this Columbia was 2 miles from getting into an Airbus 320's grill if he kept climbing. Keep being stupid and luck runs out. When it does, your stupid might take you out. If your stupid luck runs out the wrong way, it might take an A320 with you.

Please. Pretty please. Take the extra five minutes. Use some cell minutes. Do it the right way.

Or if weather is a factor, just don't go.

Thanks.

</rant>
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