Help with New "Stabilized Approach" Question on Written

[poadeleted20]

I believe they're asking you to regurgitate 4.a. from AC-20120-108, which states:

The reference cited in the question/answer was the Instrument Procedures Handbook, not that AC, and they actually quoted that section from the IPH in the explanation. Note that the IPH discussion covers three different conditions, but the question failed to provide sufficient information to determine which of the three conditions existed.

 

[dtuuri]

Note that the IPH discussion covers three different conditions, but the question failed to provide sufficient information to determine which of the three conditions existed.

Here's the question and correct answer combined:

"For a stabilzed approach, the aircraft would be in a configuration for approach or landing and descending at about a descent rate of less than 1000 FPM below 1,080 feet MSL and bank angles of less than 15° below 500 feet AGL."​

It is a true statement; you could not say that aircraft is making an unstabilized approach.

dtuuri

 

[BigBadLou]

FWIW, this is NOT the first misleading or completely incorrect question/answer combination on the FAA knowledge test.
You cannot change it (before you go in to take the test) so memorize the "correct" answers to these few bad questions and move on. That's the only way to not answer incorrectly on the test.

You can argue all you want with the test administerer that class Charlie airspace does not have a 20-nm radius (according to the FAA question bank) and the only advice he will give you is "just select whatever seems closest to the correct answer".

Do not forget we are dealing with a government entity here, not the smartest group on Earth.

 

[Henning]

The reference cited in the question/answer was the Instrument Procedures Handbook, not that AC, and they actually quoted that section from the IPH in the explanation. Note that the IPH discussion covers three different conditions, but the question failed to provide sufficient information to determine which of the three conditions existed.

But the wording of the question tells you which of the three they are not looking for because they require an extra piece of unprovided information to determine. When they write the test, they work from the answer back. So when you face a question with no really correct answer, the answer they are looking for is typically going to be the one the fewest steps removed from the question.

 

[poadeleted20]

But the wording of the question tells you which of the three they are not looking for because they require an extra piece of unprovided information to determine.

The wording of the question tells you no such thing. It fails to provide sufficient information to select from the three different ways to determine stabilized approach parameters by the methods in the referenced handbook. Simply omitting the information does not allow one to "assume" facts not in evidence. It's simply a badly framed question and should be fixed accordingly. And as I pointed out earlier, even if one were to assume it's a straight-in under IFR weather conditions, Answer C still isn't correct by the referenced handbook.

 

[dtuuri]

Answer C still isn't correct by the referenced handbook.

Since you persist, what if they just changed one word? Would this make it all better:

Here's the question and correct answer combined:

"For During a stabilized approach, the aircraft would be in a configuration for approach or landing and descending at about a descent rate of less than 1000 FPM below 1,080 feet MSL and bank angles of less than 15° below 500 feet AGL."​

dtuuri

 

[poadeleted20]

Since you persist, what if they just changed one word? Would this make it all better:

Here's the question and correct answer combined:

"For During a stabilized approach, the aircraft would be in a configuration for approach or landing and descending at about a descent rate of less than 1000 FPM below 1,080 feet MSL and bank angles of less than 15° below 500 feet AGL."​

dtuuri

No, it would not. What would make it better is if they tell us which of he three conditions described in the IPH exist, and then give answers which match with the IPH"s recommendations. Say:

(Refer to Figure 250) For a stabilized straight-in approach with IFR conditions, the aircraft would be in a configuration for approach or landing and descending at:

A - 480 feet per minute to MDA
B - 480 feet per nautical mile below 1580 MSL
C - Less than 1000 ft/min sink rate before descending below 1268 MSL.

I'd be pretty happy with that one, or one otherwise constructed to match what it says in the IPH (the referenced source for that concept). Otherwise, it's only testing your test-taking skills, not your knowledge of the stabilized instrument approach concept.

 

[dtuuri]

I'd be pretty happy with that one, or one otherwise constructed to match what it says in the IPH (the referenced source for that concept). Otherwise, it's only testing your test-taking skills, not your knowledge of the stabilized instrument approach concept.

I think it tests your ability to parse information to cut through the fog for the true statement.

dtuuri

 

[poadeleted20]

I think it tests your ability to parse information to cut through the fog for the true statement.

I didn't think that's what we were trying to test on the pilot and flight instructor written tests, just whether you know the material or not. We'll determine your ability to apply it to actual situations on the practical test.

 

[eetrojan]

As it turns out, the VERY first question I got on the real test was strikingly similar to the one in my OP, so I thought I’d report back on it. It read something like this (I'm a little uncertain about the altitude in answer A):

(Refer to Figure 247.) For a stabilized approach, the aircraft should be in a configuration for landing in IMC:

A – with engines spooled up before descending below 1,419 feet MSL.
B – at the correct speed and on glidepath at 1,819 feet MSL.
C – with a descent rate of less than 1,000 FPM below 1,519 feet MSL, and making bank angles not exceeding 15° below 500 feet AGL.

The related figure is below.

At first, I was ready to click on “C” because it sounded so close to the supposedly correct answer above. However, I ended up changing my mind and it turned out to be the right answer.

Unlike the test-prep question I struggled with, this one actually said “in IMC” so there was enough information to actually answer the question. And, given what I learned here, the answer was obviously B.

Just FYI. And, thanks for the help!

 

[Henning]

The wording of the question tells you no such thing. It fails to provide sufficient information to select from the three different ways to determine stabilized approach parameters by the methods in the referenced handbook. Simply omitting the information does not allow one to "assume" facts not in evidence. It's simply a badly framed question and should be fixed accordingly. And as I pointed out earlier, even if one were to assume it's a straight-in under IFR weather conditions, Answer C still isn't correct by the referenced handbook.

C is correct because it is the answer on the answer key. I don't care about the information, I look at it like algebra and see what I can do with it. When I look at the terms involved, I see C as the the answer that addresses the question as it is asked.

Test taking 101.

 

[poadeleted20]

As it turns out, the VERY first question I got on the real test was strikingly similar to the one in my OP, so I thought I’d report back on it. It read something like this (I'm a little uncertain about the altitude in answer A):



The related figure is below.

At first, I was ready to click on “C” because it sounded so close to the supposedly correct answer above. However, I ended up changing my mind and it turned out to be the right answer.

Unlike the test-prep question I struggled with, this one actually said “in IMC” so there was enough information to actually answer the question. And, given what I learned here, the answer was obviously B.

Just FYI. And, thanks for the help!

Yup -- 1000 above airport or touchdown, just like the IPH says.

 

[poadeleted20]

C is correct because it is the answer on the answer key. I don't care about the information, I look at it like algebra and see what I can do with it. When I look at the terms involved, I see C as the the answer that addresses the question as it is asked.

Test taking 101.

Except that correct answer (per the IPH) cannot be determined from the question alone, only by assuming facts not given, and that makes it a bad question.

 

[Henning]

Except that correct answer (per the IPH) cannot be determined from the question alone, only by assuming facts not given, and that makes it a bad question.

What part of "that is irrelevant" aren't you understanding? When the truly correct answer is unable to be determined, then you have to switch your criteria for finding the answer. So the next thing we do is analyze the structure and terms of the question and what data they are looking for in the answer, and choose the one that meets that most closely.

Giving up is not an option since it will count as a failure. Since the actually correct answer is not available, that leaves you the options of guessing. You can analyze the question and answers for clues, or you can flip coins if you please. However you want to go about it, knowing that the right answer can't be determined does you no good, so you may as well abandon that avenue of thought and move on; it is a timed test after all.

 

[poadeleted20]

What part of "that is irrelevant" aren't you understanding?

Henning, when you actually get to be a CFI, maybe you'll be able to understand the issue. And good luck with your second attempt to pass that practical test.

 

[dtuuri]

According to the Advisory Circular I cited in post #22 answer B is correct:

s. The importance of flying a stabilized approach. A common definition of a stabilized approach is maintaining a stable speed, descent rate, vertical flightpath, and configuration throughout the final segment of the approach. Although originally designed for turbojet aircraft, a stabilized approach is also recommended for propeller-driven aircraft. The idea is to reduce pilot workload and aircraft configuration changes during the critical final approach segment of an approach. The goal is to have the aircraft in the proper landing configuration, at the proper approach speed, and on the proper flightpath before descending below the minimum stabilized approach height.​

They go on to say the "minimum stabilized approach height is 1,000' above TDZ or airport elevation". If you know the material you can answer both the OP's question and the recent FAA one.

dtuuri

 

[Henning]

Henning, when you actually get to be a CFI, maybe you'll be able to understand the issue. And good luck with your second attempt to pass that practical test.

This is about being able to answer the question even if you have no idea what it is about.

How would you suggest you prize student answer this question then? So far all you have suggested is how it can't be answered. On a test this does nothing for your student.

 

[John Collins]

Yup -- 1000 above airport or touchdown, just like the IPH says.

So what is the TDZE for the KRAL RWY 9? Would you believe 795 MSL?

The IPH says:

For all straight-in instrument approaches, to include contact approaches in IFR weather conditions, the approach must be stabilized before descending below 1,000 feet above the airport or TDZE.

It doesn't state "whichever is higher". In logic, "or" means either choice may be made, but there is no specific guidance as to which choice applies to a given situation.

 

[bflynn]

Isn't the MDA measured MSL? So at 1080 MDA, you're below 1000' AGL?

 

[Henning]

The topic is not about finding the correct value, the topic is about choosing from one of three incorrect answers and choosing the one they want.

 

[dtuuri]

So what is the TDZE for the KRAL RWY 9? Would you believe 795 MSL?

The IPH says:



It doesn't state "whichever is higher". In logic, "or" means either choice may be made, but there is no specific guidance as to which choice applies to a given situation.

Interesting that this chart has THRE which is 35 feet lower than TDZE. Since TDZE is not shown (you must have inside info), the "minimum stabilized approach height" can only be based off airport elevation because THRE is an ICAO concept and not FAA's. You can read about it here :wink2:: http://www.askacfi.com/25045/tdze-and-runway-elevation-on-iap-plates-why-the-difference.htm

If TDZE were shown, the "B" answer would be wrong, so I'd pick "C".

dtuuri

 

[bflynn]

As noted in other threads here, the FAA is switching from touchdown to threshold altitudes to match with iCAO.

Regardless, the question is still about the definition of the stabilized approach below 1000. AGL, which the MDA is.

 

[John Collins]

As noted in other threads here, the FAA is switching from touchdown to threshold altitudes to match with iCAO.

Regardless, the question is still about the definition of the stabilized approach below 1000. AGL, which the MDA is.

I called them on THRE as not being in compliance with 91.175.They had switched some 4000+ procedures to THRE for the reason you stated. All of these procedures are being switched back to TDZE. The FAA also published a NOTAM that lists all of the TDZE for affected airports, including the one I referenced.

 

[John Collins]

Interesting that this chart has THRE which is 35 feet lower than TDZE. Since TDZE is not shown (you must have inside info), the "minimum stabilized approach height" can only be based off airport elevation because THRE is an ICAO concept and not FAA's. You can read about it here :wink2:: http://www.askacfi.com/25045/tdze-and-runway-elevation-on-iap-plates-why-the-difference.htm

If TDZE were shown, the "B" answer would be wrong, so I'd pick "C".

dtuuri

I don't have inside info. I just looked it up. Go to http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/dtpp/search/ and download the file at the link in the Additional Resources at the bottom of the page. The link is listed as "Touchdown Zone Elevation (TDZE) Values (PDF). The current link is http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1501/TDZE_rounded.pdf , but this only applies to the most current cycle.

Any good pilot will look up the appropriate value for the runway if it shows a THRE and not a TDZE on the chart. There was a safety alert issued on Dec 9, 2013 on this topic. ForeFlight includes it as one of the updated files on each cycle.

 

[aterpster]

As noted in other threads here, the FAA is switching from touchdown to threshold altitudes to match with iCAO.

They gave up on that and are switching back to TDZE.

Note that the reference procedure was switched back to TDZE last August:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1501/00769il9.pdf

 

[dtuuri]

Any good pilot will look up the appropriate value for the runway if it shows a THRE and not a TDZE on the chart.

It isn't clear to me the information was available to the test-taker, so that leaves answer "B" the most correct. I doubt the test-authors are educated in the nuances of THRE vs. TDZE, much less testing that others are. Being on the cutting edge can get ya into trouble sometimes!

dtuuri

 

[coloradobluesky]

I don't agree with this memorizing the answers strategy. You need to understand the material. I missed one on my CFI exam. Sometimes there will be a bad question. Not many though. The FAA is pretty good about that.

 

[eetrojan]

I don't agree with this memorizing the answers strategy. You need to understand the material. I missed one on my CFI exam. Sometimes there will be a bad question. Not many though. The FAA is pretty good about that.

Out of curiosity, who is advocating memorizing the answers?