Help-Med Denied

Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by Greg Weber, Sep 3, 2020.

  1. MalibuJim

    MalibuJim Pre-Flight

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    I know little of VA benefits, but a guy I once hired many years ago went to a meeting to determine his disabilities while in service. I distinctly remember him telling me he got a percentage, 20% I believe, just for getting a vasectomy while in service. He was very able-bodied and got "coached" to 100% but he and you would both agree there was nothing wrong with him.
     
  2. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    100% for a vasectomy?
     
  3. Jonathan Stein

    Jonathan Stein Pre-Flight

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  4. Drew S

    Drew S Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Not to pick nits, but as of this posting, Flynn hasn't been convicted of anything. The court has not formally accepted his guilty plea, nor has it acquitted all charges as requested by the DoJ.

    As far as PTSD is concerned, I simply don't understand how such an ill defined and disparate set of symptoms can be turned into a mental disorder that keeps one from flying as a private pilot. Especially if all you want to do is to bomb around in a Cessna 150 or a Cub or something.

    That's why I refuse to have anything to do with the VA.
     
  5. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    You are correct; he was charged with violating Title 18 United States Code, Section 1001 and pled guilty to the charge. Sentencing has been delayed. Ahh, politics.

    The Wikipedia entry stating he has been convicted is in error.
     
  6. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    More nits. He withdrew his guilty plea. Innocent until proven guilty. And they withdrew the charge. He’s awaiting another appeal against the judge’s order that the gov not drop the case.
     
  7. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    Anyway ...... Back to the topic. What is the true cruise speed of a cardinal rg? Would love to get a 182 rg but they are all $125 and up and need another $60k in avionics.
     
  8. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Laden or unladen? African or European?
     
  9. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    With a coconut
     
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  10. Cruzinchris

    Cruzinchris Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Do not lie or omit facts to the FAA. Hang in there, talk to the good AME guys and work the program. I was considered hopeless to get my license back. It took 5 years and $25,000 but I now have a honest medical.
     
  11. Drew S

    Drew S Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Government: We are making great efforts in removing the stigma from PTSD and other functional mental disorders.

    Also Government: Report even asymptomatic or mild symptoms of PTSD and we will literally take the sky from you, forever.
     
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  12. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Pattern Altitude

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    So, then where is the line to be drawn? Flying, in fact, does take above average skills and abilities.

    These discussions always seem to distill down to, “This is unfair and ridiculous” Or “I agree that not everyone is physically or mentally capable of flying but the line should be drawn somewhere that it does not affect my condition.”

    The experienced pilots seem to accept these limitations better than the inexperienced wannabes.

    And I am going to say what has been on my mind this whole discussion.

    Everyone is Very happy to cash the disability check for the rest of their life, but scream that life is unfair when any sort of limitation is placed upon them. I see this stuff all of the time at work and I am tired of it. Everyone thinks that their government check is legit but all others is a scam.
    Flame suit always on.
     
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  13. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    Yes and no- sort of. In the OP’s case I think a well intentioned VA guy sold him on this as “you deserve this”. Kind of like getting every credit and deduction on your taxes whether they make sense or not.

    If the guy lies then that’s fraud. But he didn’t. He just got what was offered. Is it his fault it was offered?

    Should there be a line where a person shouldn’t fly? Yes. Is it in the right place now? No.

    So. If the OP has some degree of PTSD should he be allowed to fly? If he hadn’t applied for the 3rd class he could be flying an LSA as a sport pilot.

    And I wager he and others like him wouldn’t be doing crazy things in an LSA.

    But now he can’t and nothing has changed with his capabilities. It was just a bureaucratic process which made the determination - not logic and facts.
     
  14. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route

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    While some may be in part on the docs- I’m willing to guess a large part of the abuse of theVA system with regard to benefits is patient driven. Not saying that the OP is the case here. But your generalization the “va docs” set this ball in motion is think is off IMO and experience.
     
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  15. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I agree, there has to be some sort of distinction on what is truly disabling and what is not. The VA also needs to have a more strict criteria in what is a direct result of military service. There are a crapload of things that you can’t realistically link to service but yet is awarded simply because the ailment happened during military service.

    I have several friends that are awarded anywhere from 60-90 % disability and have class 1-2 medicals. They shouldn’t be getting paid thousands in tax free money for mental / physical disabilities but yet do a job that should have a stringent cutoff in what’s acceptable to pass a flight physical.
     
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  16. Drew S

    Drew S Ejection Handle Pulled

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    If you think so.... IME, pilots are no better or worse than the bulk of humanity.

    Really? Probably because they have theirs already. People who haven't been sanctioned by stupid rules don't see those rules as dumb as those who have. That's horrible logic on your part.

    PTSD is not a single diagnosis. Neither is it permanent for most, and the great majority of those who experience could fly just fine.

    THIS I agree with wholeheartedly. I spent over 30 years in the military, worked for the VA and still do maintenance on military aircraft, and the sheer number of service members milking the VA blows my mind.
     
  17. jstone

    jstone Pre-Flight

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    I’ll give you an example of why the medical certification is a major joke. Atlas 3591 the Boeing 767 that crashed outside of Houston was being flown by the FO Conrad Aska. Aska had a long history of being an awful pilot including failing checkboxes yet he thought he was a great pilot. Basically he was someone that NEVER should’ve gone near a plane yet the faa gave him a first class medical certificate. The reason behind the crash was the he was such an idiot and would tend to panic at the slightest change in something that he crashed. He became incapacitated thru his sheer stupidity and probably equally low iq. So yea, if someone has something like adhd or depression There is no reason that they should automatically get denied by the faa and have to go thru a useless certification process. Or maybe the faa should just start requiring everyone that wants a medical certificate to go thru the entire nuero battery? That would’ve prevented atlas 3591 from crashing and also would cause plenty of pilots that the faa deems as fit for duty to lose their medical when realistically they have no problem flying a plane.
     
  18. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Pattern Altitude

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    Answer me this, if there was not a monetary reward would the OP accepted the diagnosis?
     
  19. Lindberg

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    This is a red herring. In the OP's case, it's allegedly disabling PTSD. Maybe only 20% disabling, but that is not insignificant. And maybe I missed it among all the posts about the VA, but I don't see where the OP has said whether or not he has PTSD and what his symptoms might be. Everyone seems to be projecting their opinions of the VA onto him and assuming he doesn't actually have it.
     
  20. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    So it comes down to nobody being willing to sort the wheat from the chaff?
     
  21. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    So much I could say about this. For brevity, I'll just second @Velocity173 position and anecdotes. I shed no tears for those who took a VA "tragedy of the commons" payment of any percentage and then got tripped up by it during a civilian pursuit down the line, vocational or avocational alike. It's a dishonor what's going on with VA ratings and able-bodied, gainfully employed grifting vets.
     
  22. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    The good in us is wants us to tell everyone they can be a pilot. The reality is that just isn’t true. Some people just don’t have the skill set or mind set that makes a safe pilot. I don’t know what PTSD symptoms award you a certain amount of government assistance. I’m sure there is room for some level of acceptance but then it opens to government up for litigation because they made a determination on someone’s level of PTSD and it’s risk on a pilot. If the OP says he no longer exhibits PTSD symptoms, forfeits his benefits, and goes through the motions he most likely could get a medical.
     
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  23. Drew S

    Drew S Ejection Handle Pulled

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    If it's a real condition, the 0% disability rating ensures if sometime in the future something happens to where the veteran needs help, it makes it much more easy to increase the rating percentage. I know this isn't what you are getting at, but lots of folks take the 0% disability for something that has happened to them in service just in case it gets worse with age. Most physical problems do.

    20% is significant, but is it significant to learning and being able to fly as a private pilot? I'd think for the great majority of PTSD sufferers, their diagnosis wouldn't affect their ability to be a private pilot.

    Pretty much. That and the fact that bureaucrats, as well as most people, are driven by myths and irrational fear. PTSD is a wide range of reactions humans have as a natural response to instance(s) of extreme stress or sustained exposure to stressful situations. I know excellent pilots that have experienced PTSD. But they either secretly get treatment, self-medicate or ignore the issue because they fear the permanent consequences of the pitch fork mob coming after them once they are labeled as broken. And yeah, despite having this challenge, they all can fly the frack out of an airplane, whether some government employee says they can or not.

    I agree with this, somewhat. Most vets I know game the system in a shameful manner.

    But if someone's body and mind is damaged through service to "We the People", I'm not going to begrudge the veteran who chooses to work for a living despite valid disability. No reason someone can't receive a check for damages done while finding a way to make a living that doesn't involve using the affected body part(s). One of the guys who runs Black Rifle Coffee is missing a leg. Are you going to be the one that forces the VA to quit cutting him a check every month?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  24. Drew S

    Drew S Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Have you ever received treatment at a military medical facility?

    I paid for a civilian doc to do my vasectomy because the military medical system is where the retarded docs work.
     
  25. Adam R

    Adam R Filing Flight Plan

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    Below is how the VA evaluates PTSD and other mental disorders. Yes, one can "milk" their evaluation to make it seem worse than it is. In my opinion, honesty is the best policy. If you've ever been diagnosed, then you click "yes" and you go down the path handed to you by the FAA. It is what it is. But there seems to be a lot of angst against some veterans for the disability benefits they receive. I get it...it's "free money". But maybe some of these veterans deserve every penny they get. Are there those that abuse the system? Of course. In the same way the pilot lies on his 8500 about not having been treated for a medical condition because he knows it will trigger all the FAA drama. Abuse is everywhere and we shouldn't be so judgmental. Instead, as the OP has come forward for help in the process, let's lend him a hand and guide him along the way in the hopes he can get to the promised land.


    VA Ratings for PTSD and other Mental Health Disorders:

    100% Disabled: Total occupational and social impairment, due to such symptoms as: gross impairment in thought processes or communication; persistent delusions or hallucinations; grossly inappropriate behavior; persistent danger of hurting self or others; intermittent inability to perform activities of daily living (including maintenance of minimal personal hygiene); disorientation to time or place; memory loss for names of close relatives, own occupation, or own name.

    70% Disabled: Occupational and social impairment, with deficiencies in most areas, such as work, school, family relations, judgment, thinking, or mood, due to such symptoms as: suicidal ideation, obsessional rituals which interfere with routine activities; speech intermittently illogical, obscure, or irrelevant; near-continuous panic or depression affecting the ability to function independently, appropriately and effectively; impaired impulse control (such as unprovoked irritability with periods of violence); spatial disorientation; neglect of personal appearance and hygiene; difficulty in adapting to stressful circumstances (including work or a work-like setting); inability to establish and maintain effective relationships.

    50% Disabled: Occupational and social impairment with reduced reliability and productivity due to such symptoms as: flattened affect; circumstantial, circumlocutory, or stereotyped speech; panic attacks more than once a week; difficulty in understanding complex commands; impairment of short – and long-term memory (e.g., retention of only highly learned material, forgetting to complete tasks); impaired judgment; impaired abstract thinking; disturbances of motivation and mood; difficulty in establishing and maintaining effective work and social relationships.

    30% Disabled: Occupational and social impairment with occasional decrease in work efficiency and intermittent periods of inability to perform occupational tasks (although generally functioning satisfactorily, with routine behavior, self-care, and conversation normal), due to such symptoms as: depressed mood, anxiety, suspiciousness, panic attacks (weekly or less often), chronic sleep impairment, mild memory loss (such as forgetting names, directions, recent events).

    10% Disabled: Occupational and social impairment due to mild or transient symptoms which decrease work efficiency and ability to perform occupational tasks only during periods of significant stress, or symptoms controlled by continuous medication.

    0% Disabled: A mental condition has been formally diagnosed, but symptoms are not severe enough either to interfere with occupational and social functioning or to require continuous medication. 0
     
  26. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    A physical injury that obviously occurred during service is a no brainer. Sure, cut them a check every month. Now, I’m not gonna comment of the OP’s situation but the problem I’ve always had with PTSD is that it’s almost impossible to prove. Once the VA stopped investigating PTSD claims because of lack of time / resources, the system became ripe for abuse.

    Ive told this story before but it’s important to hammer this point about how our current VA scam works. One year I was getting my annual flight physical at Ft Rucker. The female doc asked if I had any back problems. I stated no. She replied with “Well you will. Helicopter pilots are prone to back issues and you need to get it documented so you can claim it with the VA.” So I thought myself, how many of my coworkers that are Army DOD civilians are claiming back issues. Over the course of a few days I asked approx 6 coworkers and only one didn’t claim anything. Just so happens he was one of the IPs that I respected the most. Anyway, the rest of the guys had everything from back pain, joint pain, tinnitus, arthritis, etc, etc. So you have a group of pilots who are getting paid (greater than 50 % rating) for disabilities that supposedly were a result of flying helicopters in the Army, getting retirement from the Army, and getting paid as a DOD civ to continue to do the job that gave them those disabilities. That’s absolutely ridiculous.

    I think that’s the problem that myself and guys like @hindsight2020 have with our current system. We’re paying a fortune to guys with a bunch of BS disabilities that they may or may not have. Then you have seriously injured vets that aren’t getting the treatments they need because the VA healthcare side is completely inept. We’re paying money because of a condition vs providing free, quality treatment.

    Don’t even get me started on sleep apnea. I remember a coworker who came into my office bragging about how he got the coveted 50 % rating. $1.2 billion annually. Unbelievable.

    https://www.stripes.com/news/vetera...ress-to-end-sleep-apnea-claims-abuse-1.223588
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  27. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    It comes down to a decision by the taxpayers' representatives that the burden of sorting the wheat from the chaff should be born by the [prospective] airman.
     
  28. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Oh yeah, 15 years after my “back” flight physical and an additional 3,000 hrs in helos, I still don’t have any back problems. Must be good genes I guess. :rolleyes:
     
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  29. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    The answer to your rhetorical device is: of course not.. because that guy isn't maligning missing a leg. And that's the point. The mil grifters use that predictable 'samurai class protectorate' talking point you highlight in your rhetorical question. The hostage-taking of a visible amputee's payments, to notch any and all criticism of their tragedy of the commons behavior. Furthermore, they appeal to that samurai authority to garner moral points with the civilian collective to not be critical of them, and essentially distinguish them from the civilian welfare abuser.

    The issue with these fungible categories like PTSD and heck, even sleep apnea, is that they give the potential for high rating/payments vis a vis limb loss and other clear cut cases (and def no pun intended on that one) with a lot of plausible deniability. As such, [the former] are demonstrably one of the primary vectors for grift in the system, as @Velocity173 highlights. And to add insult to injury, it's a system that encourages said abuse on both sides of the patient/provider spectrum, as your own initial post stipulates.

    Shack. My points exactly, I could have typed that word for word.
     
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  30. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    They can, will, and have crosschecked. And it was a mess for those involved.
     
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  31. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    It would be difficult. Suicidal ideation can be a part of true PTSD. I don't want that person flying.
     
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  32. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well the word has spread in recent years so more and more vets are aware that the FAA is on the prowl. Guy at work was out with AFIB recently and he telling me that Ok City is nailing vets left and right with fraudulent statements on Medexpress. Doc Chien has posted about vets scrambling to unscrew their VA claims as well.

    Again, not saying this is the OP’s case, but their are those that want to claim as much as possible to get $$$ but they also don’t want it to affect their chances of getting a flying gig. In some cases, you can’t have it both ways.
     
  33. Drew S

    Drew S Ejection Handle Pulled

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    A well thought out piece, which I agree with, in principle. But is an entirely separate issue from whether a VA payment should be a disqualification for flying an airplane.

    Coupling the two is illogical, imo.

    How, precisely, does suicidal ideation in a private pilot hurt you? Greater society? What if that person is smart enough to never talk about it? What if the great majority of human beings are guilty of suicidal ideation?

    I sense just a bit of passive-aggressive superiority complex in that statement.
     
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  34. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Pattern Altitude

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    Really? You have got to be kidding. So let’s just give them a license for only single seat planes? Or make him promise to only kill himself. Or just not worry about the passengers that he would take with him.
    In your quest to win the argument at all costs, you have lost. I have similar conversations with my 20 yr. old college edumacated daughter. I have installed a 4x4 post in the front yard with her name on it. Guess I need another one and name it ‘Drew’.
     
  35. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The 'fix' to many of the cases of service acquired sleep apnea would be a requirement that you can only get that rating if you also pass the (age adjusted) PT and body fat requirement for entry into that respective service. Yes, there are guys skinny as a rail who have sleep apnea, but not many.

    As it has been pointed out a few times, the tragedy with the VA rating system is that genuinely disabled veterans have to chase the VA with lawyers and advocates to obtain the services they are owed while the grifters get a free ride due to the inability of the organization to properly test and evaluate for a few conditions.
     
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  36. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    Never thought a discussion group on airplanes/pilots would see the words “protectorate” and “collective”.

    “Proletariate” anyone?
     
  37. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Does language scare you? Don't answer that, I'm being rhetorical.

    At any rate, you caught me. Writings on socioeconomics and Class is my main avocational focus outside of flying, affair which I wish to pursue more actively in the near future, but which I keep very much closeted until mil retirement for reasons that are not germane to this thread. In any event, it's sometimes difficult to switch back to the "monosyllabic pilot" speak that's preferred here, while writing a scathing short essay on Neoliberalism and the systemic suppression of class struggle language in America, on the adjacent tile :D.

    Btw, there's no 'e' at the end of proletariat. ;)
     
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  38. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    Scare? No. I find it amusing when I hear/read people use the words "class struggle", "collective", and "protectorate". It is especially amusing that a thread about a medical on a board dedicated to pilot discussions could veer this far off course.

    But I'm just a simple guy, a pilot. Altitude good, plane shiny, fire bad.......
     
  39. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I wish I had the mastery of the English language like H2020 has. With a C- in English 101 and a CLEP for 102, my skills are limited. :)
     
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  40. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Pattern Altitude

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    You use a lot of fancy words. ‍