Helicopter school moves in, local pilots get cranky

If I were the airport manager I think I would host a end of season get together, toast some hamburgers and brats, BYOB maybe even get some hayseed group to perform for a barn dance.

Then I would ask a few RW and FW CFI guys to discuss the obligations of each as how to get along well and what to expect from the other. FW guys might not even know the routes, taxi ways and standards the RW guys use.

Our field the RW guys always use great radio skills announcing their intentions and even asking a FW guy if they can pass when he is doing a run up or stopped for some reason. I do not recall them ever getting within 200-300' of me.

I think our guys are a great asset to the airport but I can see how easily that could turn around if the CFI's and airport manager did not properly instruct the everyone how to behave (on both sides).
 
rbridges said:
They still need access to fuel and maintenance. Probably other reasons, too, but I'm just guessing.
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They have fixed plane as well (the truth of the matter is you can go from nothing to helicopter commercial for the same $$$ as going nothing->commercial fixed->commercial helicopter). Helicopters aren't elevators either. They do need some forward clear area even if they don't have much of a ground run.
 
Dr. O said:
The fixed wing pilots who have more than half a brain need to show up at that meeting and demand that the helo school be allowed to continue operations.
They need to point out ot the commissioners that taxiing so close to a hovering chopper that the airplane is affected is 'per se' a violation of the careless and reckless section of the FAR and THAT pilot might need to be banned form the airport, not the chopper that was operating within the regulations.

Just remember the old adage of, ". . . and when they came for me there was no one left to protest . . . ." Chopper operations might be in the end all there is between having an airport and having strip mall.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
If I were the airport manager I think I would host a end of season get together, toast some hamburgers and brats, BYOB maybe even get some hayseed group to perform for a barn dance.

Then I would ask a few RW and FW CFI guys to discuss the obligations of each as how to get along well and what to expect from the other. FW guys might not even know the routes, taxi ways and standards the RW guys use.

Our field the RW guys always use great radio skills announcing their intentions and even asking a FW guy if they can pass when he is doing a run up or stopped for some reason. I do not recall them ever getting within 200-300' of me.

I think our guys are a great asset to the airport but I can see how easily that could turn around if the CFI's and airport manager did not properly instruct the everyone how to behave (on both sides).
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...and I thought all pilots; RW, Fixed and silent, appreciated aircraft noise and ops. There might be conflicts but for chrissakes, who better to work out any issues than a bunch of pilots... well maybe that's the problem after all.

I've been surprised at our little private semi-residential air park that the decision to install a JetA fueling station to service the local news 'copter didn't cause some up roar. Instead it seems that everyone just accepts it as something interesting to watch and another way to $$$$ support the airport. Of course, it's only 2 or 3 ops a day and far from a flight school operation.

Can't we just get a long? Burgers, popcorn, rap sessions followed by the liberal application of some beer might help a lot.... did I say 'rap session'? :yesnod:
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, that's the AIM's view of the world.
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No, it's the 14 CFR Part 91 view of the world:

91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.


MAKG1 said:
In the real world, helicopters DO sometimes use the runway. Yes, the pattern is different, as even an R-22 can execute an extremely steep approach. Because they use the same final, their pattern always intersects ours when using the runway.
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Who said they don't use the runway on occasion? :dunno:

MAKG1 said:
When they aren't using the runway, they are by definition in a weird place outside the pattern.
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See 14 CFR 91.126 above. :rolleyes:
 
We've got helo training at KOLM. LIfe-flight helicopter operation as well. Never have any trouble with them. Good to have the activity. Maybe having a tower open 0800-2000 local time helps? That guy needs to chill.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
If I were the airport manager...I would ask a few RW and FW CFI guys to discuss the obligations of each as how to get along well and what to expect from the other. FW guys might not even know the routes, taxi ways and standards the RW guys use.
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Print out a few copies of FAA Advisory Circular AC 90-66A for the party, too. It does a pretty good job of explaining to fixed-wing guys what to expect from rotorcraft, and should also be read once in a while by the rotorheads.

In short, helicopters are to avoid the flow of fixed-wing traffic at all times, and gyroplanes should avoid the flow of fixed-wing traffic until turning final. Both flavors of rotorcraft may execute very steep descents (by fixed-wing standards) as part of normal approaches, so be careful to avoid making a shallow approach which comes in underneath a landing rotorcraft.

Elderly, NORDO hamburger-hunters have been a bigger hassle for me around airports than any flight schools. Hopefully management will tell them it is they who need to get with the program.
 
Ghery said:
We've got helo training at KOLM. LIfe-flight helicopter operation as well. Never have any trouble with them. Good to have the activity. Maybe having a tower open 0800-2000 local time helps? That guy needs to chill.
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The thought of the tower reopening would get these guys shut up right quickly. That would be even more of a pain in their sides.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 4
 
cheap weenie said:
The thought of the tower reopening would get these guys shut up right quickly. That would be even more of a pain in their sides.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 4
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Good point. Maybe circulate an email calling for that. :)

I think once the construction is finished folks will calm down a bit. Open house with U/L is a great idea.
 
Some rotor-head on this board wrote a good paper to help fixed wingers understand rotor wing ops. Where is it? It was some kind of permanent post.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
If I were the airport manager I think I would host a end of season get together, toast some hamburgers and brats, BYOB maybe even get some hayseed group to perform for a barn dance.

Then I would ask a few RW and FW CFI guys to discuss the obligations of each as how to get along well and what to expect from the other. FW guys might not even know the routes, taxi ways and standards the RW guys use.

Our field the RW guys always use great radio skills announcing their intentions and even asking a FW guy if they can pass when he is doing a run up or stopped for some reason. I do not recall them ever getting within 200-300' of me.

I think our guys are a great asset to the airport but I can see how easily that could turn around if the CFI's and airport manager did not properly instruct the everyone how to behave (on both sides).
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A helicopter school set up on our field. They hosted a meeting and social for the FW pilots which really got things off to a good start.
 
Hmmmmm this is very interesting. I sense a rivalry between the fixed wing and rotor segments of aviation.
 
Graueradler said:
Some rotor-head on this board wrote a good paper to help fixed wingers understand rotor wing ops. Where is it? It was some kind of permanent post.
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That was the late Rotorwingbob that wrote it and it is a sticky under "Flight Following".
 
This thread is super interesting to me because I notice the same behavior at my local airport. Between me and the CHP we are the only rotorcraft operators on the field. Yes we get the occasional school helicopters on the field but they are infrequent. Mostly it's just large turbine helicopters picking up VIPs for transport. Being a member of my local pilot club I hear the indirect complaints about helicopters all the time. All I can ask is that you guys voice your concerns in a reasonable way to us and I promise we are happy to try our best to make your life easier. If I pick up a PAX at the main terminal I always land as far from any fixed wing aircraft as possible. Despite my obvious efforts to be friendly to my fellow fixed wing brethren, I still don't understand this hostility from some of you fixed-wingers. I will say that the vast majority find the helicopter interesting and fascinating...but there are always loud minority who have to hate.
 
HeliNomad said:
This thread is super interesting to me because I notice the same behavior at my local airport. Between me and the CHP we are the only rotorcraft operators on the field. Yes we get the occasional school helicopters on the field but they are infrequent. Mostly it's just large turbine helicopters picking up VIPs for transport. Being a member of my local pilot club I hear the indirect complaints about helicopters all the time. All I can ask is that you guys voice your concerns in a reasonable way to us and I promise we are happy to try our best to make your life easier. If I pick up a PAX at the main terminal I always land as far from any fixed wing aircraft as possible. Despite my obvious efforts to be friendly to my fellow fixed wing brethren, I still don't understand this hostility from some of you fixed-wingers. I will say that the vast majority find the helicopter interesting and fascinating...but there are always loud minority who have to hate.
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Many reasons. Most airports have a "clique" that feel for whatever reason it's "their airport" and you weren't invited.

Then there is the wealth envy crowd. You have something they can't even possibly dream of owning.

Same thing happens at marina's where there are lots of smaller boats and you show up in a large yacht. No matter what they will complain about something you are doing wrong. :nonod:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Same thing happens at marina's where there are lots of smaller boats and you show up in a large yacht. No matter what they will complain about something you are doing wrong. :nonod:
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The opposite is true as well. Go to a marina where there are a lot of yachts and then show up with a small sailboat and they'll be looking down their noses at you and complain about how the marina is going to crap.
 
Anymouse said:
The opposite is true as well. Go to a marina where there are a lot of yachts and then show up with a small sailboat and they'll be looking down their noses at you and complain about how the marina is going to crap.
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Yep, that too. Fiefdoms everywhere. :rolleyes:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Many reasons. Most airports have a "clique" that feel for whatever reason it's "their airport" and you weren't invited.

Then there is the wealth envy crowd. You have something they can't even possibly dream of owning.

Same thing happens at marina's where there are lots of smaller boats and you show up in a large yacht. No matter what they will complain about something you are doing wrong. :nonod:
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If I cared about being in a clique then I wouldn't have purchased a helicopter. : D
 
We have a Helicopter flight school at my home airport. There was some issue with a few pilots that didn't like how close the County put the helo start up area, the school said they would pay for the tie downs, the County moved the complainers to the other end of the field. With the group I talk to out here I have never heard anyone with a conflict with the helicopters. I actually like the school, being a ex ARMY OH-58 crew chief I like to watch them. They fly a R-22, several R-44's and at least 1 R-66.
 
weilke said:
If a school was shown to operate in a reckless manner, caused damage to based aircraft and facilities, doesn't adhere to airport regulations, I imagine an airport would be within their rights to kick them off the field if they fail to correct those deficiencies.

Am I imagining this or is there significant growth in helicopter schools recently ? A lot of places seem to be filling up with those bugs lately.
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Most of these schools are 85 % military veterans. Prior to the post 9/11 GI Bill and it's 2010 changes, the old GI Bill only paid 60 % and you had to have your private first. Well no one could afford their PPL on military pay (except me) so hardly anyone used the old GI Bill for flight training.

The new CH33 post 9/11 pays for 10 grand per year at a part 141 and 100 % at an accredited university with no PPL required. Most guys getting out don't have a degree so they take the associates route and have everything paid for. Flight schools are making a killing right now. They even link a Jet Ranger qual as a "lab" and it's paid for. It's spreading like wildfire in the enlisted ranks right now. Kinda like the GI Bill was after WWII. They can get 80 grand worth of ratings paid for without having to put up with all the crap a military aviator does.

I've had a couple prior enlisted ask about doing it and becoming a commercial pilot. I say go for it but be prepared for plan B if it doesn't work out. Worse case, they have some cool ratings in their pocket if they ever want to fly as a hobby.
 
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For some reason, the phrase "This is why we can't have nice things" pops into my head. I fly at a peppy little reliever in the twin cities (Minneapolis, St. Paul). We have a number of rotorcraft based here, and some training as well. From Pitts to Falcons, we have it all, and from 16-86 in pilot age range. We all get along fairly harmoniously. However, I will say that some of the, ehem, more experienced pilots, are starting to cause issues. For example, we held an air tour, the tenth annual in fact. One is a particularly complain-y guy. He flys older, slower aircraft, and is apparently always in a state of selling one plane or another. During the air tour, we had a real nice patter working (30 planes into a grass field) I was #2 on a longer final to make room for the slow guy in front of me, everyone making position reports, and this guy cuts me off. (Full 182, slow, departed gross - 6lbs, you get the picture). I was pretty ****ed and had to go around. Then, I hear him complaining about business GA at the field, and how busy it is. If it weren't for those business GA fliers, and people like me flying, his old wrinkly butt would be couch flying, instead of actual. Sometimes people need to be reminded of this. May I ask the average age of the whiners?
 
Velocity173 said:
Most of these schools are 85 % military veterans. Prior to the post 9/11 GI Bill and it's 2010 changes, the old GI Bill only paid 60 % and you had to have your private first. Well no one could afford their PPL on military pay (except me) so hardly anyone used the old GI Bill for flight training.

The new CH33 post 9/11 pays for 10 grand per year at a part 141 and 100 % at an accredited university with no PPL required. Most guys getting out don't have a degree so they take the associates route and have everything paid for. Flight schools are making a killing right now. They even link a Jet Ranger qual as a "lab" and it's paid for. It's spreading like wildfire in the enlisted ranks right now. Kinda like the GI Bill was after WWII. They can get 80 grand worth of ratings paid for without having to put up with all the crap a military aviator does.

I've had a couple prior enlisted ask about doing it and becoming a commercial pilot. I say go for it but be prepared for plan B if it doesn't work out. Worse case, they have some cool ratings in their pocket if they ever want to fly as a hobby.
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I figured there was a 'free money' aspect that explained the sudden activity.

Unfortunately, with the helos, without a way to accumulate 1000hrs or so after the ratings, the paper is not worth a lot when it comes to finding gainful employment. Flight schools are a bit of a pyramid scheme where the new entrants serve as the fodder to get the folks already in the system their 'dual given' time.
 
weilke said:
I figured there was a 'free money' aspect that explained the sudden activity.

Unfortunately, with the helos, without a way to accumulate 1000hrs or so after the ratings, the paper is not worth a lot when it comes to finding gainful employment. Flight schools are a bit of a pyramid scheme where the new entrants serve as the fodder to get the folks already in the system their 'dual given' time.
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Yep, that's exactly what I tell my friends who sign up for it. While its great that all their ratings are paid for, unfortunately the only thing they'll be qualified to do is CFI work. Plenty of competition for those spots and we all know they don't get paid crap. Like fixedwing, it's a long road to get to the "good life."
 
cheap weenie said:
My home airport became host to Upper Limit Aviation earlier this year. They brought in R22s, 44s, and a 206. I think right now they have 8 flying. The airport used to be fairly quiet. There were usually a few guys in the pattern on nice days, an occasional training flight from a nearby airport coming over to fly approaches, and a few business jet in-and-outs throughout the day. So the helicopters added quite a bit of traffic. Apparently this did not sit well with the local pattern flyers.

My experience with the helicopters has been excellent, as has that of a few other guys who are more seasoned pilots. Yes, there is more traffic, but the helicopters are far more courteous than they have to be, going out of their way to make way for fixed wing traffic.

The complaint became known when one of the locals sent a email to the manager and all the hangar tenants with his concerns and complaints. Some of them were a little ridiculous. He complained that he had a wing lifted and was nearly blown over when he taxied by a hovering helicopter (imagine that....). Another complaint was that with so many active aircraft, ctaf is very busy and "it's hard enough to fly a practice approach without all those people jabbering in my ear". Yes, that's a quote.

After he sent that group email, several people replied with their experiences. The comments were mixed, it seemed like the ones that flew for business and travel had no complaints, and the $100 hamburger guys had similar problems as the original pilot. A shocking revelation from one of the emails is that they are pressuring the airport commission to not renew the hangar lease for the school at the end of the year. That seems absurd to me. Those helicopters bring more money in a day to the airport than the complainers do in a month, I guarantee it. I'm confident the commission will kill that idea.

All that long story to ask this, any suggestions on dealing with the differing viewpoints here, and staying safe in a busy, mixed traffic area? I know these guys have a completely different viewpoint on aviation than I do, and I think it's important for both types to work together both for safety and to maintain good relationships within the flying community. But it's also ridiculous to try to shut down a school that's bringing much needed money to the airport because you have poor radio skills and have not read the pertinent parts of the AIM. I guess this is more of a vent than an actual question.
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I have not read through the entire thread but these pilots are out of control. I've flown at an airport with an intense helicopter school that is constantly flying. For 3 years I've contended with the helicopters and never had any issue. They fly lower than me, different patterns and never interfere. The only time helicopters are annoying is when they are hovering near by and I am trying to pre-flight. It's loud and so forth but, we all need to share the ramp.

I admire helicopter pilots, you'd never get me to fly one but props to those that do.( pun maybe intended!) ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
Yep, that's exactly what I tell my friends who sign up for it. While its great that all their ratings are paid for, unfortunately the only thing they'll be qualified to do is CFI work. Plenty of competition for those spots and we all know they don't get paid crap. Like fixedwing, it's a long road to get to the "good life."
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If you can call a jet-ranger a 'lab', you may be able to call '800hrs of droning around in a R22' a 'class' ;) .
 
Geico266 said:
I am damn close, and the difference isn't gonna matter. :no:
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Au contrare. Contrary to popular belief, repaying grants doesn't relieve the airport of abiding by the grant assurances they agree to when signing the grant agreement. If what you wrote were correct, there would be at least a few dozen airports closed that are otherwise open today if all it took for an airport sponsor to be freed from federal obligations was to simply repay AIP grants.
 
weilke said:
I figured there was a 'free money' aspect that explained the sudden activity.

Unfortunately, with the helos, without a way to accumulate 1000hrs or so after the ratings, the paper is not worth a lot when it comes to finding gainful employment. Flight schools are a bit of a pyramid scheme where the new entrants serve as the fodder to get the folks already in the system their 'dual given' time.
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The attrition rate is high enough at our local schools that if you actually make it to CFII, you'll likely have a job in house.

A lot of people (GI Bill included) stop flying after PPL or IFR ratings because they realize how long they'll be poor and chasing work...leaving plenty of students for the instructors.
 
I used to fly a twin Beech full of mail part 135. I never took issue with helos until jet ranger would regularly blow my mail bags down the ramp while hover-taxiing by....wanted to throw rocks at the SOB. Always wanted to try my hand at flying one, though.
 
I see this from both sides. I am a rotor pilot (inactive) and I think they are wonderful.
At any "green" airport (grass between pavement) it is just a matter of common courtesy and communication. If you are in "dry country" (read dusty) between the pavements, then there are some serious irritations with helicopters blowing dust and weeds of all sorts all over the place, including into hangars, and into the inside of tied down aircraft. Also, there is the "sandblast effect" on any outdoor nearby aircraft-whether tied down or moving.

I would strongly encourage any RW school to situate on a GRASS covered airport-if nothing else, all that dust/dirt is hard on the heli's, too.

Transient RW in dusty areas need to be VERY aware and considerate when flying near aircraft AND hangers....

From dry country,
Fb
 
Freebird said:
I see this from both sides. I am a rotor pilot (inactive) and I think they are wonderful.
At any "green" airport (grass between pavement) it is just a matter of common courtesy and communication. If you are in "dry country" (read dusty) between the pavements, then there are some serious irritations with helicopters blowing dust and weeds of all sorts all over the place, including into hangars, and into the inside of tied down aircraft. Also, there is the "sandblast effect" on any outdoor nearby aircraft-whether tied down or moving.

I would strongly encourage any RW school to situate on a GRASS covered airport-if nothing else, all that dust/dirt is hard on the heli's, too.

Transient RW in dusty areas need to be VERY aware and considerate when flying near aircraft AND hangers....

From dry country,
Fb
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Thankfully this is farmland, so everything is very grassy between paved areas.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 4
 
wickedsprint said:
The attrition rate is high enough at our local schools that if you actually make it to CFII, you'll likely have a job in house.

A lot of people (GI Bill included) stop flying after PPL or IFR ratings because they realize how long they'll be poor and chasing work...leaving plenty of students for the instructors.
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You gotta love multilevel marketing schemes! LOL!

If you get six people in your "downline" maybe you too can live in a Great Lakes hub with six other pilots in a crash pad!

;)
 
denverpilot said:
You gotta love multilevel marketing schemes! LOL!

If you get six people in your "downline" maybe you too can live in a Great Lakes hub with six other pilots in a crash pad!

;)
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I'm good thanks :). Flying is going to remain a hobby.
 
As an update to this issue (all has been quiet with the complainers, thank goodness), this came out this afternoon:

FAA Safety Team | Safer Skies Through Education
You have asked us to notify you when a seminar is scheduled that meets your criteria. The following seminar may be of interest to you:

"Helicopter Operations with Fixed Wing Traffic"
Topic: Helicopter Operations with Fixed Wing Traffic
On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 6:30 PM
Location:
West Memphis Airport - FBO Meeting Room
737 South Airport Road

West Memphis, AR 72301
Select Number:
CE2152781

Description:
Helicopter training is increasing in the Memphis area and a significant number of complaints and safety issues have been reported. This meeting is to discuss rules, regulations and safety procedures regarding helicopter operations at airports with fixed wing traffic. Fixed wing pilots are encouraged to attend and share their thoughts and experiences.

To view further details and registration information for this seminar, click here.

The sponsor for this seminar is: Memphis FSDO - Little Rock FSDO

The FAA Safety Team (FAASTeam) is committed to providing equal access to this meeting/event for all participants. If you need alternative formats or services because of a disability, please communicate your request as soon as possible with the person in the 'Contact Information' area of the meeting/event notice. Note that two weeks is usually required to arrange services.

The following credit(s) are available for the WINGS/AMT Programs:

Basic Knowledge 3 - 1 Credit
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Brad Z said:
How much you want to bet the whiners and complainers will be absent from this session?
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Quite likely, and unless the airport manager sends it out in an email to all of us, they likely won't even know about it. I don't see them as the types to subscribe to FAA training class notifications.
 
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