heart attack

loch1957

loch1957

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jun 29, 2013
Messages
62
Location
Texas
Display Name
Display name:
James
Is there a time limit on how long ago you had one? My older brother wants to fly but he doesn't want to get light sport I'm getting. He has kids so a two place isn't practical. He had a heart attack 13 or 14 years ago. Hes very healthy and incidents since then.
 
Special Issuance is always an option. After three years with satisfactory annual blood tests and stress tests it gets even easier with an AME Assisted Special Issuance, which means that your AME can issue your 3rd class Special Issuance medical on the spot, almost like a normal person with the exception that it's only good for a year.
 
The AME assisted CAD SI, 3rd class:


That is true for some situations, but not nearly enough of them. Only if the ST segments on the run are unequivocally negative, and there were essentially no extra anything (rhythms, beats, etc) will they do this.

I have a few of those....
 
DrMack said:
Special Issuance is always an option. After three years with satisfactory annual blood tests and stress tests it gets even easier with an AME Assisted Special Issuance, which means that your AME can issue your 3rd class Special Issuance medical on the spot, almost like a normal person with the exception that it's only good for a year.
Click to expand...

And it's an expensive hassle every year. Visited with a friend about that just yesterday who was on that plan with his AME. He finally got tired of the hassle and is only flying gliders now.
 
I see that AOPA is having a session at the summit about some changes coming from FAA. I am confident that Dr. B will have an insight what it may be.
I know what I had to through with thyroid and a gall bladder surgery. One can only imagine what coronary people have to go through.
 
LDJones said:
And it's an expensive hassle every year. Visited with a friend about that just yesterday who was on that plan with his AME. He finally got tired of the hassle and is only flying gliders now.
Click to expand...

You can also fly self-launch gliders without a medical, if you're looking for something that doesn't need a tow. I saw some at Wurstboro a few weeks ago. They're pretty impressive flying machines.

-Rich
 
Just odd that after so many healthy years he cant fly, I understand the need for rules but some seem a tad odd.
 
loch1957 said:
Just odd that after so many healthy years he cant fly, I understand the need for rules but some seem a tad odd.
Click to expand...

Its not odd at all. Its reflective of cold, hard, factual reality.

People with a history of heart attack have a significantly higher risk of sudden death. Median survival after initial myocardial infarction was 7.85 years in one retrospective study. When my father had his fatal event in 1992, I remember hearing that the 5 year survival rate was not all that great, better than 50/50... but thats about it.. (but this was before stenting got as good as it is now).

Of course, those who do poorly tend to have other risk factors and findings, which the physical and special issuance process are intended to pick up.

Having a bypass or stent after a heart attack doesn't necessarily improve survival but rather improves quality of life by salvaging injured portions of the heart that lie adjacent to the infarcted area. Stenting may improve survival if it occurs soon enough to abort/avoid permanent damage, like within minutes to a few hours after the onset of symptoms but I will defer on the facts related to that to one of the cardiologists who frequent this forum.
 
Doggtyred said:
Its not odd at all. Its reflective of cold, hard, factual reality.

People with a history of heart attack have a significantly higher risk of sudden death. Median survival after initial myocardial infarction was 7.85 years in one retrospective study. When my father had his fatal event in 1992, I remember hearing that the 5 year survival rate was not all that great, better than 50/50... but thats about it.. (but this was before stenting got as good as it is now).

Of course, those who do poorly tend to have other risk factors and findings, which the physical and special issuance process are intended to pick up.

Having a bypass or stent after a heart attack doesn't necessarily improve survival but rather improves quality of life by salvaging injured portions of the heart that lie adjacent to the infarcted area. Stenting may improve survival if it occurs soon enough to abort/avoid permanent damage, like within minutes to a few hours after the onset of symptoms but I will defer on the facts related to that to one of the cardiologists who frequent this forum.
Click to expand...

My first question to the cardiologist who put my stents in was to ask how much damage had been done to my heart....his answer was none,zero. Every test and examination since then has confirmed that. I dont use or carry nitro, I've not had even one instance of discomfort,heaviness or tightness in my chest since my heart-attack. My cholesterol is checked 3 times a year, i get an ecg 2 times a year, I eat well,dont smoke, exercise, my bp is perfect.........I see no reason that I wont live another 20 years into my late 70's or early 80's.

All that being said and considering how well/often I'm monitered by the docs, am I really that much more of a risk than somebody who, not having had a heart attack and who only gets checked-out every 2 or 3 years and might have some unknown issue?
 
Dave you miss understand. Its not that a heart attack "rules you out so to speak" part that I find odd. It is he can fly an ercoupe all he wants but not a C 150. I'm sure this has been debated to death already but I still don't see the logic. Is there a greater risk of a second episode in a different plane? Thanks for the responses, I did pass along the information.
 
bbchien said:
Yes.
"But I feel fine!"
Click to expand...

Dr. Bruce...i was being a bit tongue-in-cheek....I know that my risk is higher than average....and that my odds of are reduced. I'm also aware of the "But I feel fine" syndrome. I and maybe most other of cardiac patients, but certainly I, tend to constantly moniter myself dureing the day , every day. Far more consiously than I suspect the average person does.

By that I mean that I'm constantly,dureing the day, consiously checking how I feel....i suppose its a kind of paranoia, so if I feel a sudden ache or discomfert somewhere I become instantly aware of it and moniter it and deal with it if need be.I'm regularly during the day consiously checking myself and actually mentally asking myself how im feeling....that might sound weird and I'm probably not explaining it very well. And agreed that I could feel 100% one minute and suddenly keel over stone-cold dead the next with no warning....
 
genetk44 said:
...And agreed that I could feel 100% one minute and suddenly keel over stone-cold dead the next with no warning....
Click to expand...

That is true for anyone.

Like the good book says, "Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes."

ETA: Still pretty unlikely it is going to happen in a plane.
 
Last edited:
genetk44 said:
All that being said and considering how well/often I'm monitered by the docs, am I really that much more of a risk than somebody who, not having had a heart attack and who only gets checked-out every 2 or 3 years and might have some unknown issue?
Click to expand...
I would say you're a better risk, with a caveat: If you're on a no-oil, non-dairy vegan diet. Anybody who thinks they're healthy, but who eats a Western diet is in denial--and that includes, especially, those medical examiners and FAA-employed pilot types who sit in holier-than-thou judgment of the rest of us.

There's an Air Force PowerPoint presentation out there on the internet somewhere that's made for USAF medical officers. On one slide it says something to the effect of "If you want to see somebody with heart disease, turn your head 90° to the side, either way, and look at the person next to you. It's only a matter of time until they have a heart attack." It's a fact the the most unstable coronary stenoses are the ones the FAA certifies every day--35 to 50 percent. Just about everybody reading these words has them.

Here's yesterday's article by Jeff Nowick on the American, i.e., "Western", diet:
And today's news about Bill Clinton's version of the Vegan diet (he cheats on that too):
I recommend Dr. Esselstyn's book, Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease, and watching his videos, especially the one given to the city of Medina, Ohio, on his website www.heartattackproof.com .

Personal note to Dr. Bruce: I really DO feel fine! I'm sure I am too. I'm gonna prove it to you fairly soon too.

dtuuri
 
Last edited:
Bump..

I looked, but couldn't find the slide show online, so I uploaded the USAF slides I must have been thinking about to my own website:
I hope Major Davenport doesn't mind.

Notice the concesion that diet plays an "important role in altering the balance of etiologic factors". The reason I'm cherry-picking the slides instead of publishing the entire 144 slide presentation is because diet isn't even considered in establishing USAF standards. I guess Air Force chow isn't healthy enough to make a difference. I get the feeling the FAA gets their medical lead from the military, but MY chow hall serves nothing except the healthiest of food. It's not fair, not American, I say.

dtuuri
 
bbchien said:
Nope. Coronary disease is forever.
Click to expand...

Total nonsense.

I had an MI 5 years ago, and I didn't have a problem. I had to jump through some additional hoops, but that's it.

Take care of yourself, and you'll be good.

I absolutely guarantee that everyone over 30 reading this has some amount of CAD. It is part-and -parcel of Western life.

Word of advice - don't let anyone tell you what you can't do. That goes double for some anonymous douche on a website. I don't care how much of an expert he claims to be - he doesn't decide what anyone gets out of life.
 
Joffrey said:
Total nonsense.

I had an MI 5 years ago, and I didn't have a problem. I had to jump through some additional hoops, but that's it.

Take care of yourself, and you'll be good.

I absolutely guarantee that everyone over 30 reading this has some amount of CAD. It is part-and -parcel of Western life.

Word of advice - don't let anyone tell you what you can't do. That goes double for some anonymous douche on a website. I don't care how much of an expert he claims to be - he doesn't decide what anyone gets out of life.
Click to expand...
There are three americans who reversed moderate coronary disease. They are the original patient of Dr. Dean Ornish, and there are cath lab films to prove it.

But if you listen to Buffet at all, know that "Cheesbeurger in Paradise" is about his effort to become patient #4. "Eating nuts, eating seeds, eating bulgur wheat...."

Yes you can mostly hold it at bay, but the disease is still there. That is why FAA never lets the SI go.

You can say whatever you wish, but the science doesn't agree. Yes, I know, "you feel fine!".
 
bbchien said:
There are three americans who reversed moderate coronary disease. They are the original patient of Dr. Dean Ornish, and there are cath lab films to prove it.
Click to expand...

I find proper dietary information some of the hardest things to research (and I do research for a living). I'm looking to eat better but I'll be damned where to turn. Everything seems to conflict with everything else, then add in the multibillion dollar fad diet industry and it's hard to know what to believe.

Is Orish really that reputable? Everyone who writes a diet book seems to have a Dr. in front of their name.
 
spamcanstudent said:
I'm looking to eat better but I'll be damned where to turn. Everything seems to conflict with everything else, then add in the multibillion dollar fad diet industry and it's hard to know what to believe.

Is Orish really that reputable? Everyone who writes a diet book seems to have a Dr. in front of their name.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't listen much to anyone who hasn't had chest pains, for starters, unless they have published research backing them up. Ornish and Esselstyn have the research and their patients had the chest pains. My dad worked with one of them, so I know it isn't faked. Dr. Crowe, interviewed in the link below, also exists because I heard him being interviewed on the radio as I drove through Cleveland--not about diet, but about breast cancer surgery. He's the head of the Cleveland Clinic's breast cancer department, so I know he's for real. I have met a retired cardiologist who himself needed a stent, like me, and changed his eating habits to Dr. Esselstyn's no-oil, non-dairy, vegan lifestyle. He now gives monthly nutrition courses in Akron, Ohio. Chest pains made him a believer.

On the other hand, you have highly respected Dr. Nissen, of the cardiology department at the Cleveland Clinic, who apparently has yet to experience his own chest pains. He calls Esselstyn's diet a "fad diet", yet he provides no counter research to disprove it. I think he likes to eat meat too much for everyone's own good.

Not saying I agree with all in this video, only that Dr. Crowe is real and ate away his heart disease.

dtuuri
 
Last edited:
spamcanstudent said:
I find proper dietary information some of the hardest things to research (and I do research for a living). I'm looking to eat better but I'll be damned where to turn. Everything seems to conflict with everything else, then add in the multibillion dollar fad diet industry and it's hard to know what to believe.

Is Orish really that reputable? Everyone who writes a diet book seems to have a Dr. in front of their name.
Click to expand...
Everybody's a doctor. Everybody's opinion is the same as any other.55 hour Private or 12,000 hr ATP.

Nurse or lay or subspecialist.

Nobody understands the meaning of the phrase "peer reviewed scientific journal publication" anymore.

You'll never find anything under the name "orish".

I can tell you quite a lot about Herpes genetics. I've personally created for study, a number of mutants in the alpha-4 promotor region of the genome. There are only about fifteen people on the planet who can understand what was really done (Baylor, Chicago, and Glasgow). But never mind, anyone's opinion is as good as any other.
 
bbchien said:
Everybody's a doctor. Everybody's opinion is the same as any other.55 hour Private or 12,000 hr ATP.

Nurse or lay or subspecialist.

Nobody understands the meaning of the phrase "peer reviewed scientific journal publication" anymore.

You'll never find anything under the name "orish".

I can tell you quite a lot about Herpes genetics. I've personally created for study, a number of mutants in the alpha-4 promotor region of the genome. There are only about fifteen people on the planet who can understand what was really done (Baylor, Chicago, and Glasgow). But never mind, anyone's opinion is as good as any other.
Click to expand...
Find a doctor you trust and ask him. It's as good as it gets.
.
Not my doctor, but thanks Dr B. You do the best you can and MOST of us appreciate your advice.
 
Joffrey said:
Total nonsense.

I had an MI 5 years ago, and I didn't have a problem. I had to jump through some additional hoops, but that's it.

Take care of yourself, and you'll be good.

I absolutely guarantee that everyone over 30 reading this has some amount of CAD. It is part-and -parcel of Western life.

Word of advice - don't let anyone tell you what you can't do. That goes double for some anonymous douche on a website. I don't care how much of an expert he claims to be - he doesn't decide what anyone gets out of life.
Click to expand...
Your first post on PoA and you call Dr. Bruce an "anonymous douche"? I suggest you stow the attitude, shut up and pay attention, and get the lay of the land.

Dr. Bruce is an unselfish font of knowledge that he willingly shares with the pilot community for free. He is also a premier AME, and many of us are flying, and within a very short amount of time, because of his efforts on our behalf, and due in no small part because of status with the folks in Oklahoma.

I got my medical back within weeks due to Dr. Bruce, while a client of mine had the same thing, and didn't get his medical back within the year.
 
Last edited:
loch1957 said:
Dave you miss understand. Its not that a heart attack "rules you out so to speak" part that I find odd. It is he can fly an ercoupe all he wants but not a C 150. I'm sure this has been debated to death already but I still don't see the logic. Is there a greater risk of a second episode in a different plane? Thanks for the responses, I did pass along the information.
Click to expand...

Dont bang this drum too loudly, or the ercoupe privilege might eventually be lost too.. Sport Pilot and its medical requirements (or lack of) was a compromise. They had to draw the line somewhere, and remember they could have drawn it at "not no but hell no"
 
Dave I do love that Ercoupe, but at 6'5 i need another inch of headroom.
 
bbchien said:
Nope. Coronary disease is forever.
Click to expand...
True.
Joffrey said:
Total nonsense.
Click to expand...
I disagree.
Joffrey said:
I had an MI 5 years ago, and I didn't have a problem. I had to jump through some additional hoops, but that's it.

Take care of yourself, and you'll be good.

I absolutely guarantee that everyone over 30 reading this has some amount of CAD. It is part-and -parcel of Western life.
Click to expand...
Probably true but that does not imply that everybody has similar risk for cardiac events.
Joffrey said:
Word of advice - don't let anyone tell you what you can't do. That goes double for some anonymous douche on a website. I don't care how much of an expert he claims to be - he doesn't decide what anyone gets out of life.
Click to expand...
You forfeit all credibility with that inane comment.
bbchien said:
There are three americans who reversed moderate coronary disease. They are the original patient of Dr. Dean Ornish, and there are cath lab films to prove it.

But if you listen to Buffet at all, know that "Cheesbeurger in Paradise" is about his effort to become patient #4. "Eating nuts, eating seeds, eating bulgur wheat...."

Yes you can mostly hold it at bay, but the disease is still there. That is why FAA never lets the SI go.

You can say whatever you wish, but the science doesn't agree. Yes, I know, "you feel fine!".
Click to expand...
I agree with Dr. Bruce except I'm not convinced that those 3 guys actually "reversed moderate coronary artery disease". There may have been a significant improvement in the coronary angiogram but if their coronary arteries had been removed and examined microscopically I doubt that the coronaries would have been free of disease.
 
Last edited:
Gary F said:
I agree with Dr. Bruce except I'm not convinced that those 3 guys actually "reversed moderate coronary artery disease". There may have been a significant improvement in the coronary angiogram but if their coronary arteries had been removed and examined microscopically I doubt that the coronaries would have been free of disease.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone's claiming coronaries become free of disease, are they? Only that even a small diameter reversal causes exponentially improved blood flow due to Poiseuille's Law. I know Dr. Esselstyn only says that, "If it can be reversed, it can be prevented." Not all of his patients had measurable reversal, but all did arrest the progression as determined by a triple, blinded reading of the angiograms where the analysts weren't told which views were before or after the study.

What says the most for me is that 18 out of 24 patients stayed compliant on his strict vegan diet for 20 years after the Cleveland Clinic's cardiologists gave them up as beyond repair--and with no more "events" the entire time! The six who dropped out had 12 among them, not including a death from arrhythmia.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
I don't think anyone's claiming coronaries become free of disease, are they? Only that even a small diameter reversal causes exponentially improved blood flow due to Poiseuille's Law. I know Dr. Esselstyn only says that, "If it can be reversed, it can be prevented." Not all of his patients had measurable reversal, but all did arrest the progression as determined by a triple, blinded reading of the angiograms where the analysts weren't told which views were before or after the study.

What says the most for me is that 18 out of 24 patients stayed compliant on his strict vegan diet for 20 years after the Cleveland Clinic's cardiologists gave them up as beyond repair--and with no more "events" the entire time! The six who dropped out had 12 among them, not including a death from arrhythmia.

dtuuri
Click to expand...
I understand hemodynamics and the importance of risk factor modification including non-pharmacologic issues including diet. Those with better coronary flow in general have better prognosis but don't forget that half of the severe heart attacks (ST elevation MIs) occur in arteries that do not have flow limiting (over 50% to 70% stenosis depending on who you ask) disease. I can believe that patients who adhere to a very strict diet may be able to greatly reduce risk for adverse events but most people can't stick to such a diet for an extended period of time.
 
Gary F said:
I understand hemodynamics and the importance of risk factor modification including non-pharmacologic issues including diet. Those with better coronary flow in general have better prognosis but don't forget that half of the severe heart attacks (ST elevation MIs) occur in arteries that do not have flow limiting (over 50% to 70% stenosis depending on who you ask) disease. I can believe that patients who adhere to a very strict diet may be able to greatly reduce risk for adverse events but most people can't stick to such a diet for an extended period of time.
Click to expand...
"Tried to refrain my carnivorous habits, made it nearly 70 days. Eating nuts, eating seeds, eating bulgur wheat...."

...."cheeseburger in paradise, heaven on earth with an onion slice...."
 
bbchien said:
"Tried to refrain my carnivorous habits, made it nearly 70 days. Eating nuts, eating seeds, eating bulgur wheat...."

...."cheeseburger in paradise, heaven on earth with an onion slice...."
Click to expand...
I went vegetarian for a couple of years. I put up with soy meat substitutes in an attempt to manage my cholesterol levels without meds. My numbers actually got worse, probably as the result of excess carb intake. I ate a lot of bagels. My numbers look much better on a low carb diet.
 
Last edited:
Gary F said:
I. My numbers look much better on a low carb diet.
Click to expand...

It his summer I too switched to reduced carb diet (lots of salads, veg, very little bread and no processed foods (used to be a frozen meal junkie)) and my blood sugar numbers are away better and not yo-yoing as much.

And I'm not hungry. 15 almonds and a dill pickle spear kills a afternoon or evening hunger pang. Eclipse SF gum satisfies sweet craving.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top