He was just a jock

To be certain, I do not care how the sport's world looks at the accomplishments of Ali, Rose or others. It doesn't matter to me whether someone gambled on their sport, used steroids, cheated or whatever since their sports accomplishments mean little to nothing to me and in the grand scheme of things it should mean very little to anyone. But if someone wants to admire an athlete because of his athletic accomplishments that is fine, no big deal. I imagine that we all admire at least a few people due to their skills, talents, accomplishments or whatever. I have no issue with that at all. However when it becomes hero worship and there is a great gnashing of teeth like there was this past week over a celebrity athlete dying, it just makes me wonder "WTF?"
 
Not much opinion on Ali... But I'm disgusted at the following and respect for Michael Jackson. The dude raped little boys, since when is it okay to glorify people that do that in today's society? How much music do you have to produce for dozens of counts of rape of a minor no longer matter?

Same with David Bowie (but it was little girls IIRC).

Those people above long painful prison sentences... not fame or riches.
 
SmashTime said:
Do you know the difference between a Sunni and Shiite Muslim? Probably not,but let me briefly tell you... they're two groups of Muslims that live next to one another and have been fighting each other for hundreds of years.

So yea, an American Muslim, saved Americans from their heads being cut off. No biggy, how many airplanes did you say you've fixed?..... lol
Click to expand...

kudos for you . If it was me I wouldn't have been able to reply to such ignorant racist remark like you did
 
Heroes don't exist in our society anymore because we Americans love tearing down our heroes. Plus, they're exposed like never before. Back in the day, private lives were not touchable. It was public persona that was the only thing the media and public cared about. Now, all bets are off. An affair? That's PNG status nowadays. 50 years ago, that was the NORM and nobody cared.

Going to Ali specifically, he absolutely stood for what he believed in, despite being threatened with jail time. He missed out on what probably would have been the most productive/profitable years of his career because of his stance on wanting conscientious objector status. He seemed to have a meaningful positive impact on those around him, and lent his name and celebrity to several notable and benevolent charities and organizations.

His passing deserves mourning.

If you don't want to get all broken up about it, don't. But that doesn't diminish the value that other people saw in him.
 
SkyDog58 said:
To be certain, I do not care how the sport's world looks at the accomplishments of Ali, Rose or others. It doesn't matter to me whether someone gambled on their sport, used steroids, cheated or whatever since their sports accomplishments mean little to nothing to me and in the grand scheme of things it should mean very little to anyone. But if someone wants to admire an athlete because of his athletic accomplishments that is fine, no big deal. I imagine that we all admire at least a few people due to their skills, talents, accomplishments or whatever. I have no issue with that at all. However when it becomes hero worship and there is a great gnashing of teeth like there was this past week over a celebrity athlete dying, it just makes me wonder "WTF?"
Click to expand...


Dear Brickwall,

So after all this discussion, you are still on the "he's just a jock" band wagon?

Unbelievable.
 
SmashTime said:
Dear Brickwall,

So after all this discussion, you are still on the "he's just a jock" band wagon?

Unbelievable.
Click to expand...

Bandwagon? Hardly. The one who starts the conversation can not be accused of jumping on the bandwagon or do you not know the meaning of the term? But to be honest, I never really thought he was "just a jock". My thread title was inaccurate and does not do him justice. I also consider him to be a draft dodging P.O.S.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Bandwagon? Hardly. The one who starts the conversation can not be accused of jumping on the bandwagon or do you not know the meaning of the term? But to be honest, I never really thought he was "just a jock". My thread title was inaccurate and does not do him justice. I also consider him to be a draft dodging P.O.S.
Click to expand...

Some stood on principle. Some fled to Canada. Some got education exemptions. Some signed up for duty in units where they could hide without ever being deployed.

I'd throw my lot in with someone who stands on principle over the other categories of draft dodgers.
 
azure said:
I've never believed in heroes, for many of the reasons Let'sGoFlying says. They're all human, they all have feet of flesh and bone and none of them lives up to his or her reputation.

I had that lesson driven home in the last couple of years because even I had a hero of sorts, or semi-hero, in the form of an astronomer who remade his career in middle age to become one of the foremost discoverers of exoplanets (MAKG and a couple of other folks on here probably know of whom I speak). I thought, if he could do it, so could I. I suggested him as a potential colloquium speaker at my former place of employment. I followed his professional career for a few years. Then came the news: he had lost his tenured position because he was an admitted sexual harrasser. Not just in one case, which would be bad enough, but he had a pattern of pursuing women astronomers and students in a less powerful position than he. In short, he was a scumbag with either poor impulse control or an arrogant disregard for the standards of professional behavior.

Everyone is human, everyone has feet of flesh and bone and no one lives up to an inflated reputation.
Click to expand...

It's a good lesson. I've often contemplated whether or not it's inevitable, considering the number of complete asses who've done great things.

One starts to wonder if it's a brain pattern trait amongst the people who get these amazing things done, because maybe they truly believe they're better than others so they not only accomplish great things, but also tend toward no regard whatsoever for societal norms and standards of morality.

But then I go looking harder and find much more humble people who've done equally amazing things. Bob Andover comes to mind.

I'm sure somebody somewhere thinks he's an utter prick for something he's done, but in general, he's dome most of it with humbleness and kindness toward others.

I hunt around once in a while for the backstory of folks doing really nifty stuff and see if they fall into that narcissistic type personality category or the type that behaves more like Bob. Nobody's perfect.

But I really don't believe my own idea anymore that some of these folks can't help but be pricks. The evidence seems to indicate that they choose pickhood willfully.

Some even utilize their prickishness to useful effect. Patton comes to mind.

Ali didn't really tend toward much prickishness. Many completely leave out that he and Cosell virtually made each other with their banter. Ali messing with Cosell and Howard playing the straight guy perfectly, helped both of their careers, really. Endeared both of them to a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't have paid any attention to a boxer and a sportscaster.

There's also a bit of this problem in many "successful" people. I have a couple of friends who everyone who doesn't know them well would outwardly describe as "successful", but once you've known both of them for a while, you learn that the many favors and things they do that appear charitable, are really coldly calculated to bring that success.

They search out people that have talent they don't possess and use them hard by doing some small favor for them first, and then when the target is sufficiently in awe of their "wonderfulness", they ask the target person for a much harder favor in return. Nothing they do is ever without strings attached but they can thinly disguise it from the non-observant or willfully ignorant as just exchanging favors. Those "favors" always go more their way than the original recipients. They've both built small empires off of this behavior.

I often wonder if they know they do it, and whether or not they realize other people know they do it, too. Or if they even care. I've been one of their used talent sources over the years, and I've noticed they rarely call anymore and have a new gaggle of starry eyed youngsters doing their hard work for them nowadays.

I just kinda chuckle when they do call, and one of their youngsters blew something up and they all can't figure it out, and I usually help out anyway. But these days, I do it on my schedule when I feel like doing it, and they can wait a day or two for their empire to be put back on Humpty Dumpty's wall. I think I'm mostly doing it out of fascination now to see how big they'll grow their little empires. It's quite entertaining, watching all their political machinations to keep an army of worker bees happy.

Not really my gig, at all. I probably won't make the millions they have, ever. I'm okay with that. I wouldn't be very happy manipulating that many people toward my personal goals... And like I said, I can't even tell if they know they're doing it purposefully, or it's just their personalities.

At least they also don't fall a majority of time on the prickishness side.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Not much opinion on Ali... But I'm disgusted at the following and respect for Michael Jackson. The dude ALLEGEDLY raped little boys, since when is it okay to glorify people that do that in today's society? How much music do you have to produce for dozens of counts of rape of a minor no longer matter?.
Click to expand...

He was tried and they failed to convict him of any wrong doing. Now years later there still aren't any of the "victims" coming forward with any factual evidence that he did any wrong doing. We supposedly live in a Nation where we are presumed innocent until proven guilty and we should live by that. The media is the first to jump on the "oh he did it, more at eleven" wagon and when they have twenty four hours to fill the try their best to fill it. Yet when the accused is found not guilty the media never has one word to say about their role in trying to convict them.

Remember the Malaysian Boeing 777 that disappeared and the CNN coverage? They go bonkers trying to fill all that air time!

Michael Jackson may have done some inappropriate things around young boys but there is no evidence that he "raped" any of them.
Read up on the west Memphis Three for a good "witch Trial"

Not meant to be anything personal, have a great day!
 
Acrodustertoo said:
He was tried and they failed to convict him of any wrong doing. Now years later there still aren't any of the "victims" coming forward with any factual evidence that he did any wrong doing. We supposedly live in a Nation where we are presumed innocent until proven guilty and we should live by that. The media is the first to jump on the "oh he did it, more at eleven" wagon and when they have twenty four hours to fill the try their best to fill it. Yet when the accused is found not guilty the media never has one word to say about their role in trying to convict them.

Remember the Malaysian Boeing 777 that disappeared and the CNN coverage? They go bonkers trying to fill all that air time!

Michael Jackson may have done some inappropriate things around young boys but there is no evidence that he "raped" any of them.
Read up on the west Memphis Three for a good "witch Trial"

Not meant to be anything personal, have a great day!
Click to expand...
Do you believe OJ was innocent too because he was acquitted? :rolleyes:
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Do you believe OJ was innocent too because he was acquitted? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
That is not the point.

O.J couldn't have been more guilty yet was able to distract the jury enough that they forgot that he was on trial for murder. On the other hand, M.J was tried under the assumption of guilt with no hard evidence other than he had sleepovers with children.

I am not taking sides on M.J, rather trying to point out that we as a society should respect the findings of "OUR PEERS" that served on that jury. Speculation is what leads down that dark path that we seem to follow too much these days.
 
Acrodustertoo said:
rather trying to point out that we as a society should respect the findings of "OUR PEERS" that served on that jury. Speculation is what leads down that dark path that we seem to follow too much these days
Click to expand...
Did you accept the jury's decision in the WM3 case? You seem to be arguing from both sides.
 
I agree that we should not "worship" celebrities/athletes simply for being what they are. It's those that use their fame/power/money to help others that should be admired, praised, and remembered/celebrated when they die. And with that said, Ali did a lot for people. A lot more than most of today's athletes.

As for draft dogging... he was right, why should he be forced to fight for a country who won't even let him use bathroom or water fountain, and where he can't eat at some restaurants? He was willing to go to jail for his principles, how many of you would be willing to do that? I'd guess exactly 0.
 
Cooter143 said:
Did you accept the jury's decision in the WM3 case? You seem to be arguing from both sides.
Click to expand...
Yes I accepted it.

We tend to forget that years later we have more information and opinion on these cases that were not there when the trials took place. Looking back, our vision is always 20/20.
 
Acrodustertoo said:
Yes I accepted it.

We tend to forget that years later we have more information and opinion on these cases that were not there when the trials took place. Looking back, our vision is always 20/20.
Click to expand...

So speculation can be good and does not always lead down a dark path?

BTW I agree with you about the media.
 
Last edited:
orange said:
I agree that we should not "worship" celebrities/athletes simply for being what they are. It's those that use their fame/power/money to help others that should be admired, praised, and remembered/celebrated when they die. And with that said, Ali did a lot for people. A lot more than most of today's athletes.

As for draft dogging... he was right, why should he be forced to fight for a country who won't even let him use bathroom or water fountain, and where he can't eat at some restaurants? He was willing to go to jail for his principles, how many of you would be willing to do that? I'd guess exactly 0.
Click to expand...



For that last guess anyways...you would be mistaken. But thats the beauty of cyber space we all got enough space to type
 
Although I don't espouse his religious beliefs or his political commentaries, he wasn't a hypocrite, and I respect him as a fighter and for his dedication to the sport.
 
orange said:
I agree that we should not "worship" celebrities/athletes simply for being what they are. It's those that use their fame/power/money to help others that should be admired, praised, and remembered/celebrated when they die. And with that said, Ali did a lot for people. A lot more than most of today's athletes.

As for draft dogging... he was right, why should he be forced to fight for a country who won't even let him use bathroom or water fountain, and where he can't eat at some restaurants? He was willing to go to jail for his principles, how many of you would be willing to do that? I'd guess exactly 0.
Click to expand...
An estimated net worth of $80 million, he had it bad.
 
I remember Cassius clay when he fought. Important to remember he was only 23 when he refused to go to veeeetnam! While most of the American public, including me, disagreed with him at the time, as this phoney war progressed, killing thousands of young Americans , wounding thousands of others, most americans finally agreed with clay, and Johnson gave up and quit. Then Nixon dragged it out far more than necessary. It was a pointless stupid endeavor and we have learned nothing since. Clay was and is probably the most talented boxer in history bar none and did a lot of good in his later years. As for anyone like Tyson beating Ali , it's obvious, if you watched both fight, Ali would have made short work of that nut case.
 
Last edited:
Ali was a Jock?

What part of Scotland was he from?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top