Have you EVER had Lycoming cam/lifter spalling with roller tappets that required engine teardown?

Have you EVER had Lycoming cam/lifter spalling with roller tappets that required engine teardown?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • No (I have roller tappets)

    Votes: 5 45.5%
  • No roller tappets

    Votes: 4 36.4%

  • Total voters
    11

Eric Pauley

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Eric Pauley
Lycoming has been putting roller tappets in engines for almost 20 years now. Cam and lifter spalling is the bane of the owner-flown Lycoming's existence (along with stuck valves), so you would expect that either (a) these new lifters would fail and people would complain about how "they don't make them like they used to," or (b) they would work flawlessly and everyone would rejoice. I have seen no evidence of either of these outcomes.

The most recent thread on this is 4 years old (https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/lycoming-roller-tappets.117300/). Aside from complaints about overhaul cost there is little here to settle the debate.

I want to know: has anyone actually had a cam/lifter issue with this new design? What did a failure look like? Alternately, how long has your roller tappet engine gone without issue?

I'll start. IO-360 with 3000h/9y since rebuilt. No issues (fingers crossed).
 
I haven’t personally heard of a roller lifter failing but the majority of the engines I service still have flat tappets.

As far as failures go, I’d point you to the automotive market. Roller lifter failure is not uncommon and it will trash a cam as fast as a spalled lifter will. I expect that the ingredients to cause a roller to fail would be similar to what is commonly accepted as the contributors to a spalled lifter - disuse and/or short runs that may cause rust and corrosion.

Time will tell. So far things seem to be better than the flat tappet engines but I wouldn’t categorize it as a win just yet.
 
Alternately, how long has your roller tappet engine gone without issue?
If your intent is to compare failure rates to the flat solid tappets it would not be a good comparison. In addition to the rollers tappets using a different base material, if the flat tappets had the same replacement requirements as the rollers I seriously doubt the failure rates of the flat type would be anywhere near their past levels. But as above I have not heard or read of any roller failures to date.
 
I voted yes, but I was just guessing.

Please correctly answer the poll question "Have you EVER had Lycoming cam/lifter spalling with roller tappets that required engine teardown?"
 
Please correctly answer the poll question

Lots of forum users just read thread titles and respond to them, without reading much more. And Tapatalk users cannot read the poll or even detect that there is a poll - that’s a limitation of the app. So when your thread title and poll pose different questions, well, what you got is what will happen.
 
Lots of forum users just read thread titles and respond to them, without reading much more. And Tapatalk users cannot read the poll or even detect that there is a poll - that’s a limitation of the app. So when your thread title and poll pose different questions, well, what you got is what will happen.

Thanks for the info, title updated.
 
Please correctly answer the poll question "Have you EVER had Lycoming cam/lifter spalling with roller tappets that required engine teardown?"

Is this like Q18 on the medical? Have you ever in your life….?
 
I suppose if you are dissatisfied with the poll results as offered, you can seek a refund.
 
Roller lifter and roller cam failures aren’t usually a spalling mechanism of failure, to my understanding. Spall and roller are almost like a non-sequitur. That might be why you don’t hear about em?

I would believe that a roller failure would be a fairly catastrophic, maybe localized, failure, whereas a flat tappet spall is something that causes a performance degradation and/or excessive metal make over some longer hours.

The above is a lot of opinion and conjecture based on 40 years of amateur messing with engines (not an A&P).
 
Um most people don't seem to have any idea what's going on.

Roller lifter fail at the roller bearings. That is the most common mode. The spalling is a specific type of wear that only the high surface pressure of flat tappets can cause.

So you are comparing apples to dragon fruit.

Also ALL parts have a life limit. Nothing goes on forever without maintenance.
 
Um most people don't seem to have any idea what's going on.

Roller lifter fail at the roller bearings. That is the most common mode. The spalling is a specific type of wear that only the high surface pressure of flat tappets can cause.

So you are comparing apples to dragon fruit.

Also ALL parts have a life limit. Nothing goes on forever without maintenance.

Okay… let’s say the bearings fail. What happens next? Perhaps the tappet seizes intermittently and causes friction against the cam, causing…?

Example:

http://ocmhz.com/33_ford_coupe/valvetrain/33_coupe_valvetrain-3.htm

Sure, there are other failure modes, but do they happen in practice? I have yet to see a single confirmed instance of a roller tappet causing an engine teardown. I’m tempted to put a bounty out for anyone who can ship me a failed roller tappet with camshaft pic, just to know.
 
The bearings initially don’t seize, they simply don’t roll as smoothly. They feel ‘crunchy’ if you roll them by hand. By the time the bearings seize you’ve most likely wiped the lobe due to friction.

Most cams fail due to corrosion. Lycomings put the cams as far away from the oil as humanly possible. That means the protective oil coating will eventually dry up and allow corrosion. It’s the small initial pits that flake off and you find in your filter.

Letting any engine sit is simply bad for it. There is no way to coat internals other than by pressurizing the system and putting a fresh coat of oil on everything. On a car, the oil coating is gone after about 3 days. If there is a pre-oiler system I don’t know of one.

What you really want is some sort of electric pump to turn on once every day and mist the engine intervals and rotate the engine. I don’t think a certificated version of that exists.
 
The bearings initially don’t seize, they simply don’t roll as smoothly. They feel ‘crunchy’ if you roll them by hand. By the time the bearings seize you’ve most likely wiped the lobe due to friction.

Most cams fail due to corrosion. Lycomings put the cams as far away from the oil as humanly possible. That means the protective oil coating will eventually dry up and allow corrosion. It’s the small initial pits that flake off and you find in your filter.

Letting any engine sit is simply bad for it. There is no way to coat internals other than by pressurizing the system and putting a fresh coat of oil on everything. On a car, the oil coating is gone after about 3 days. If there is a pre-oiler system I don’t know of one.

What you really want is some sort of electric pump to turn on once every day and mist the engine intervals and rotate the engine. I don’t think a certificated version of that exists.

Whatever you want to call it ("siezes intermittently" vs. "don’t roll as smoothly" is a distinction without a difference), "wiped out the lobe" is a spalled cam.
 
Seems as if you already have all the answers, know pretty much the whole bit, before posting the poll.

Just looking for data to support an opinion? Trying to win a bet at the pub?
 
Neither. I am looking for evidence one way or another. Obviously it’s difficult to prove they have no issues but as of now I have not received any evidence of actual issues from anyone. Unfortunately requests for evidence are often met with speculation or misinterpretation.

Given how embarrassingly often the old tappets fail, if the new ones were anywhere near as bad it shouldn’t be this hard to rustle up an example.
 
Neither. I am looking for evidence one way or another. Obviously it’s difficult to prove they have no issues but as of now I have not received any evidence of actual issues from anyone. Unfortunately requests for evidence are often met with speculation or misinterpretation.

Given how embarrassingly often the old tappets fail, if the new ones were anywhere near as bad it shouldn’t be this hard to rustle up an example.

The problem is that the flat tappets most often fail in older, disused engines. I think we’re only beginning to see the roller tappet engines get old and crusty enough to start seeing how well they’re going to fare under similar conditions.

Personally, I suspect the roller engines will do better with regards to cam/lifter failure but I expect there will still be failures.
 
The problem is that the flat tappets most often fail in older, disused engines. I think we’re only beginning to see the roller tappet engines get old and crusty enough to start seeing how well they’re going to fare under similar conditions.

Personally, I suspect the roller engines will do better with regards to cam/lifter failure but I expect there will still be failures.

It seems like that's still about the best guess we can make with available data.

Fwiw I recently reached out to someone who handles maintenance on a statistically useful sample of Lycoming engines. They said they've had no issues with roller tappets yet.
 
The bearings initially don’t seize, they simply don’t roll as smoothly. They feel ‘crunchy’ if you roll them by hand. By the time the bearings seize you’ve most likely wiped the lobe due to friction.

There are no bearings in the roller. It's a round wheel on a pin. The only antifriction stuff in there is the oil. Both those pieces are hardened so as to avoid galling each other.

EDIT: I just came across an article that suggested that there might be needle bearings in there. If so, I stand corrected. But the presence of needle bearings also means that moisture will destroy them, too. No ferrous part is completely immune to corrosion.

The roller lifters in my 1946 deHavilland Gipsy Major aircraft engine had no needle bearings. But then, those engines were lucky to make 1000 hours.

Most cams fail due to corrosion. Lycomings put the cams as far away from the oil as humanly possible. That means the protective oil coating will eventually dry up and allow corrosion. It’s the small initial pits that flake off and you find in your filter.

The oil will fall off a Continental cam, under the crank, as fast as it will off a Lycoming cam. The oil does not "dry up." It just runs off, and it does so very quickly when it's hot.

Cam and lifter corrosion is primarily due to moisture in the crankcase. People who run their engines without flying them are pumping their cases full of water. Then some of them have oil sump heaters that raise the vapor pressure of that water, driving into vapor that condenses on the stuff higher up in the engine, including the cam and lifters. The Lyc is worse that way. There is also condensation on the cylinder walls and everything else. We have found rust on magneto gears and accessory case gearing, too.

If people would only read the stuff the engine manufacturers publish, which tells them to avoid short runs, and don't ground-run it thinking you're helping it.

Letting any engine sit is simply bad for it. There is no way to coat internals other than by pressurizing the system and putting a fresh coat of oil on everything. On a car, the oil coating is gone after about 3 days. If there is a pre-oiler system I don’t know of one.

Pressurizing the system does not get oil on the cams or lifters faces or rollers. They are lubricated by oil thrown off the rotating crankshaft. Only the camshaft bearings and lifter bodies get pressure lubed. This is basic aircraft engine technology that is sorely misunderstood by way too many amateur experts.

And there ARE preoiler systems. You just don't know, as you admit. https://www.oilamatic.com/
More info: https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/07/01/why-arent-engine-pre-oilers-more-popular/
What you really want is some sort of electric pump to turn on once every day and mist the engine intervals and rotate the engine. I don’t think a certificated version of that exists.
See above. Certified. And see also my previous comments about it doing nothing for the lifter/cam interfaces. People buy stuff in ignorance and are amazed when they still have troubles that they thought the new doodad would fix.
 
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Fwiw I recently reached out to someone who handles maintenance on a statistically useful sample of Lycoming engines. They said they've had no issues with roller tappets yet.
I had several roller-lifter engines on the flight school airplanes. They gave no trouble whatever, but of course those engines flew hard almost every day and didn't get ground-run just "to circulate the oil and coat everything."

I have seen no SBs or ADs on the roller lifters. They have been in use for around 15 years, and if they had issues they would have shown up by now. Any failures will be due to owner-induced corrosion.
 
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