Have you ever "Busted Bravo"?

John Baker

John Baker

Final Approach
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John Baker
I know of at least one pilot who was killed in order to avoid entering class B airspace, how close have you come, or have you? After an unauthorized excursion into Bravo, what evils befell on you for doing so?

I came close a few weeks ago, but I corrected before actually entering and avoided all the humiliation and such that goes along with a major transgression like this.

What exactly do they do to you if you unintentionally stray into Bravo?

John
 
I've never busted. I've had a controller accuse me of it..and I've been in other peoples aircraft when they busted bravo..no big deal as long as you don't cause an incident (generally)..

If you do, I would advise you fill out a NASA report. I generally just trim it out well and fill em out on my laptop in the air.
 
You know, I'm paranoid about this at LAX Class B -- in fact, so much so that I annoy SoCal Approach by always saying "unable without a Bravo clearance". - I can almost hear them roll their eyes at me.

There is a class B shelf (25/100) that I fly just south of before turning northwest to my home field (KHHR Hawthorne) -- and I cruise at 3500. often they will tell me to "fly direct Hawthorne, altitude your discretion", and I will always come back with "I will need a Bravo clearance to turn direct, but descending now"

One guy actually got snippy with me once and said "just don't worry about the Bravo, contact Hawthorne tower." -- which didn't leave much room to argue (I just slammed it under 2500 real quick to steer clear -- a bad situation, really)

As regards the actual bust, I hear it every so often on the air -- usually the controllers nip in the bud and say "you're about to enter class B airspace, turn 20 degrees right" -- and they say it with that "wink wink" voice.

Sometimes they will say "you are in the class B, please exit immediately"

I haven't yet heard the phone number given out, but LAX airspace tends to be civil.

Worst case, I'd land and file that NASA ASRS form pronto. And not do it again next time. :)

I wouldn't harm my plane or do anything wild to avoid class B -- but I'd be quick with an explanation to ATC of what I was up to, and why.

$0.02

- Mike
 
I accidentally climbed into the Bravo north of ADS once; ADS tower called me and asked me to say altitude, and when I did, they said "you are in Bravo airspace, descend immediately" (I was about 200' into it, thank goodness I was in an Archer instead of a Bonanza!).

The exchange up to that point was pretty brusque, but then they lightened up and told me they'd hate to have me fly into a jet inbound to DFW. No phone numbers given.

I filed my ASRS instanter upon return home.
 
schmookeeg said:
in fact, so much so that I annoy SoCal Approach by always saying "unable without a Bravo clearance". - I can almost hear them roll their eyes at me.
- Mike
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Possible alternative: "SoCal approach, confirm N12345F is cleared into bravo?"
 
Chairboy said:
Possible alternative: "SoCal approach, confirm N12345F is cleared into bravo?"
Click to expand...

Ooh, I like that! -- turns their passive-aggro back on em. gonna try it out tomorrow :D

hehe, hope they don't retort with "Bonanza 6KU, confirm that you are ready to copy this number?"

Doh! :nonod:
 
On my first long cross country after getting my ticket back in 2005, I was leaving St. Louis Downtown (KCPS) and climbing en route to Cape Girardeau (KCGI). I was caught off guard a little as CPS tower was telling me my transponder wasn't reporting altitude. I cycled power and it was good. She turned me loose then I called St. Louis approach.

He gave me a squawk as I continued to climb to 5,500. I thought I was clear but had drifted just enough east I was under the southern corner of STL's 4,500 shelf. He called back asking if I realized I had busted Class Bravo. I told him I thought I was clear in th wedge between the sectors.

He responded with, "Today's your lucky day. Squawk VFR. Frequency change approved. Merry Christmas." I went on my way to CGI in the dark, thinking my lucky stars I busted on the right controller at the right time of the year. Christmas was two days later.

In Houston when I had to divert a student from our airport closed due a collapsed gear, we went into Williams. It's like a hole between the trees and doesn't stick out well at all. I had no GPS on her aircraft so with it being far too close to the Class B surface area, I called approach. I stumbled upon it just he called radar contact. He might have thought I was an idiot but at least I didn't bust Class Bravo.
 
schmookeeg said:
Ooh, I like that! -- turns their passive-aggro back on em. gonna try it out tomorrow :D

hehe, hope they don't retort with "Bonanza 6KU, confirm that you are ready to copy this number?"

Doh! :nonod:
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They can't bust ya for asking! :)
 
I've never busted the confines of bravo, but I have let altitude slip a bit in Bravo. Never heard a word about it.
 
Chairboy said:
Possible alternative: "SoCal approach, confirm N12345F is cleared into bravo?"
Click to expand...
I've used this a couple of times in that situation, and the response (from Minneapolis Approach both times) has been "5ZC cleared into class Bravo".
 
Never busted, but came close twice. Once was on my checkride. Miraculously, I still passed.
 
I clipped the bottom corner of a shelf change once by about 200 ft. Just started my climb a little too early. Potomac notified me, I dove, and that was the end of it. Filed an ASRS and nothing more came of it.
 
Chairboy said:
Possible alternative: "SoCal approach, confirm N12345F is cleared into bravo?"
Click to expand...
On a VFR flight around Chicago with FF a controller gave me a heading that was about to take me into bravo. I said exactly what you said above albeit to Chi-App instead of SoCal. The controller responded witha 3 minute tirade about how I was wrong to ask that, how I was frequency hogging by making useless radio calls, and genrally being a typical Chi-App jerk controller. At the end of his tirade I think he finally realized that VFR requires that one be explicitly cleared into Bravo and backed off.
 
smigaldi said:
On a VFR flight around Chicago with FF a controller gave me a heading that was about to take me into bravo. I said exactly what you said above albeit to Chi-App instead of SoCal. The controller responded witha 3 minute tirade about how I was wrong to ask that, how I was frequency hogging by making useless radio calls, and genrally being a typical Chi-App jerk controller. At the end of his tirade I think he finally realized that VFR requires that one be explicitly cleared into Bravo and backed off.
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Sheesh. I'd like to think that my response to something like that would be, "Pull the tapes and give me a # to call for your supervisor. because the suggestion that confirming clearance is worse than busting is just plane retarded. (Pun intended)
 
Haven't busted it. I have a friend who did (and busted it bad), and didn't get a phone number, just a warning. Seems that it's not a big deal so long as nothing big happens. I've flown through Bravos a number of times, usually directly over the big airport, and always found ATC to be most helpful.

Flying around Bravo can be somewhat taxing if you're trying to avoid it. What I generally try do is I plan to ask for clearance and not get it. If you work out how you're going to deal with not getting Bravo clearance ahead of time, then it saves you a lot of headaches. Doubly so if you're in an area where you can be pretty certain you won't get it. Generally this really isn't a big deal, it just involves some low flying, and paying attention to your headings, landmarks, and VORs. It's especially helpful to have a DME and/or a GPS.

I try to keep at least 500 ft off of the Bravo altitudes and 5 miles out from where the line is to give me a good buffer.

Really, it's never been a big deal for me.
 
John Baker said:
I know of at least one pilot who was killed in order to avoid entering class B airspace, how close have you come, or have you? After an unauthorized excursion into Bravo, what evils befell on you for doing so?...
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Corey Lidle WITH his instructor.
 
smigaldi said:
On a VFR flight around Chicago with FF a controller gave me a heading that was about to take me into bravo. I said exactly what you said above albeit to Chi-App instead of SoCal. The controller responded witha 3 minute tirade about how I was wrong to ask that, how I was frequency hogging by making useless radio calls, and genrally being a typical Chi-App jerk controller. At the end of his tirade I think he finally realized that VFR requires that one be explicitly cleared into Bravo and backed off.
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Greebo said:
Sheesh. I'd like to think that my response to something like that would be, "Pull the tapes and give me a # to call for your supervisor. because the suggestion that confirming clearance is worse than busting is just plane retarded. (Pun intended)
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Understandable. The controller forgot that just this one time he wasn't pretending he couldn't hear a VFR pilot. :mad3:
 
The instructor on that flight was Tyler Stanger, in case you were wondering.

Well I know there was another crash where the pilot was about to enter Class B (or perhaps the ADIZ....I don't have the report in front of me) and when notified he pulled a very sharp turn and crashed. I'll see if I can find the report.
 
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When you fly a Champ with no electrical system, 1) they don't see you because you don't have a transponder and they have primary returns deselected 2) you don't talk to them or listen to them because you don't have a radio, 3) you fly slow enough that they are not certain what they are seeing if they do see you. :))
 
IIRC the ADIZ incident was different. The pilot burned up all his fuel spinning circles waiting for a flight plan and ended up coming down about a mile short of Martin State. I was in PPL training at the time, and the plane that went down was from the school I finished up at.
 
Greebo said:
IIRC the ADIZ incident was different. The pilot burned up all his fuel spinning circles waiting for a flight plan and ended up coming down about a mile short of Martin State. I was in PPL training at the time, and the plane that went down was from the school I finished up at.
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Ah, I was told that the pilot was given a "hey you're about to penetrate ADIZ airspace" warning and ended up pulling a very sharp descending turn. However, I could be mistaken as I heard about the case from my (now deceased) flight instructor when he was teaching me about operations around controlled airspace and specially designated airspace.

I know there was a case like you are describing profiled by AOPA as a training measure about fuel management but it was not fatal crash.
 
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I think we're probably talking about different incidents. The one I'm talking about was definitely ADIZ not Bravo, but didn't involve sharp turns, just fuel exhaustion due to stupidity.
 
Right....the only reason I brought the case I mentioned (NTSB query page is down so I'll look for it later) up was to highlight what can happen when someone overreacts to the need to avoid penetration of airspace.
 
No Bravo busts for me, but just about every time i've landed on RWY 34 at palwaukee I've come within what seems feet of the Bravo Surface area :yikes:

Part of that has to do with the controllers calling your base just as you are about to enter the Bravo.

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yea pete, ive been into palwaukee once and that part where they call your base made me pretty nervous. it was fun making eye contact with the folks in the airliners coming off O'hare though...
 
vontresc said:
No Bravo busts for me, but just about every time i've landed on RWY 34 at palwaukee I've come within what seems feet of the Bravo Surface area :yikes:

Part of that has to do with the controllers calling your base just as you are about to enter the Bravo.

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tonycondon said:
yea pete, ive been into palwaukee once and that part where they call your base made me pretty nervous. it was fun making eye contact with the folks in the airliners coming off O'hare though...
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PWK aka Chicago Executive formally known as Palwaukee can be interesting but try flying around MDW on the north side of their charlie. Not only are you dodging bravo and ORD heavy metal but lots of 737's coming into MDW. Thanksfully the MDW controllers do not suffer the same personality disorders of the rest of the Chi-App ones. They will actually help GA, of course they always tell you to stay clear of the bravo.
 
john smith said:
When you fly a Champ with no electrical system, 1) they don't see you because you don't have a transponder and they have primary returns deselected 2) you don't talk to them or listen to them because you don't have a radio, 3) you fly slow enough that they are not certain what they are seeing if they do see you. :))
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I don't think the Champ would be legal inside the Bravo thirty mile veil. You need radios and an altitude reporting transponder on board.

John
 
I've always wanted to fly into KPWK once I get my PPL and some experience, but I'm too chicken of all the traffic up there to actually do it by myself, especially as VFR flight. My fiancee actually wants to go up to Chicago for our honeymoon instead of Hawaii (saving money mostly) and suggested I fly us up there if I have my license by then. I told her no freaking way. The equation of:

(New private pilot with about 120+ hours + airliners)/limited and restricted airspace) + *******s manning CHI_APP

equals too much for me to willingly do that flight.
 
John Baker said:
I don't think the Champ would be legal inside the Bravo thirty mile veil. You need radios and an altitude reporting transponder on board.
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If it wasn't originally certificated with an electrical system, and one hasn't been added, it would be legal within the veil and below the ceiling of the class Bravo as long as it didn't actually enter the class B. See 91.215(b)(3).
 
I've come close a couple times departing to the west from my home base off rwy 10. The class B is about 2000 ft above the runway but rises to 3000+ AGL a mile or so west of the field. If I'm climbing steeply (light load, cold winter air) it's all too easy to brush against the edge after turning westbound. This was never a problem in the Bonanza but the Baron climbs at a much higher angle.

And I did actually penetrate the MCO (Orlando) class once departing to the west out of ORL (Executive). I had been given some traffic to avoid by the tower and just kinda breezed right into the SUA which begins at 1600 MSL over the airport. It rises to 2000 MSL for a couple miles and then goes to 4000 and I was climbing towards 2000 while still under the 1600 portion. The tower advised me that I was in the Class B about the same time I realized it and was already descending rapidly. I think I might have gotten 200 ft too high for half a minute. I apologized and never heard another word about it but I did file the ASRS form.
 
smigaldi said:
PWK aka Chicago Executive formally known as Palwaukee can be interesting but try flying around MDW on the north side of their charlie. Not only are you dodging bravo and ORD heavy metal but lots of 737's coming into MDW.
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Chicago Executive has an interesting departure procedure if you are taking off on 16.

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0901/05028PAL-WAUKEE.PDF

This is not as much of an issue for a slow plane as it is for a fast one.

To my knowledge I can't remember busting Bravo but I have a short memory. I have busted other things, however. This is what I have been told a number of times about busts in general. The controller can "forgive" you as long as you do not lose legal separation with either other traffic or with terrain. If you do, it's either a controller deviation or a pilot deviation. You can still be forgiven but the forgiveness needs to come from an FAA inspector, not the controller.
 
Everskyward said:
Chicago Executive has an interesting departure procedure if you are taking off on 16.

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0901/05028PAL-WAUKEE.PDF
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That seems a bit of a tight turn.....can you request to takeoff from the crosswind runway instead (example: RWY 6)? More importantly would they actually approve something like that if they are running ops off of RWY 16? Taking off from RWY 6 would allow you a straight shot out to the lake and once you're out there you could do your turning to course.

For example let's suppose a flight from Chicago Executive to Eagle Creek (which I live next door to), to me it would seem logical to take a straight out departure from RWY 6 and then out to somewhere offshore like the DEERE intersection before turning southeast to head for the South Bend VOR and then on south......

BTW, I apologize if this is a stupid question, but I've never dealt with this crowded of airspace before.
 
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SteveinMichigan said:
That seems a bit of a tight turn.....can you request to takeoff from the crosswind runway instead (example: RWY 6)?
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I'm sure you can request it, but it's not long enough for a lot of airplanes.

SteveinMichigan said:
More importantly would they actually approve something like that if they are running ops off of RWY 16?
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Absolutely. I've probably done it at least 5 times, in a jet.

Edit: Oh, you mean operation on the crosswind runway... I don't know about that. I though you were asking if they actually used this procedure.

SteveinMichigan said:
BTW, I apologize if this is a stupid question, but I've never dealt with this crowded of airspace before.
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Not a dumb question at all. :)
 
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