Hauling Skydivers????

[OkieFlyer]

A friend of mine is an avid skydiver, but recently, the skydiving company he usually flies with closed. He hit me up to see if I would take him up from time to time, and it would be my pleasure to oblige him, but I was wondering if there are any rules against it. I'm a private pilot, SEL, and that's it. There wouldn't be any money exchanged, so that's not an issue, but I wasn't sure if I would need any training like what is required for glider towing. Any insight would be quite helpful. I've never done it before, but I can't imagine there would be much to having a guy bail out the door in flight.

 

[Velocity173]

I would say if you take reasonable precautions to avoid damages to persons or property, you're good.:wink2:

 

[Kritchlow]

A friend of mine is an avid skydiver, but recently, the skydiving company he usually flies with closed. He hit me up to see if I would take him up from time to time, and it would be my pleasure to oblige him, but I was wondering if there are any rules against it. I'm a private pilot, SEL, and that's it. There wouldn't be any money exchanged, so that's not an issue, but I wasn't sure if I would need any training like what is required for glider towing. Any insight would be quite helpful. I've never done it before, but I can't imagine there would be much to having a guy bail out the door in flight.

I'm not even sure how he would get out of the airplane without a modified door.
Granted, it's been 30 years since I was a jump pilot, but we were required to wear an emergency chute and file a notam. Not sure if that was regulatory or club policy.
There are also insurance issues to be concerned with.

In short, I wouldn't do it even if it is legal.

 

[James331]

Yes you can,

Yes he should be able to get out most doors

If you don't remove the door you're ok without the pilots parachute, doesn't mean this is a good idea, but you're legal.

Yes you will need to file a NOTAM, no biggie, just give them the time, altitude, diameter of the area and where it is as a radial DME from the nearest VOR and also nearest airport.

Yes you will need permission from the owner of the land he is going to land on

THAT SAID, you really need to know what you're doing, he really needs to know what he's doing and one of you needs to be able to spot a load, ether have him do it visually or you do it on a GPS, know the winds aloft as your climbing.

Is he a new jumper or a 5,000 jump D license.

ALSO his USPA insurance WILL NOT cover any damage to your plane or anything he hits as you're not a USPA DZ, also doubt your insurance company will cover any damage.

You will want to carry a hook knife and also have him carry one, if he doesn't guard his pilot chute and it deploys after being bumped getting out, I've seen them rip the horizontal stab off a 206.

He should practice quite a bit on the ground, dirt dive the crap out of this.


All said, unless he's a accomplished jumper (C license or above) and unless you have experience dropping jumpers, this has bad news written all over it.
Nearly all dropzone a require new pilots to have 500 hours before they begin jump pilot training, at a good DZ training for a greenhorn jump pilot will last a little while and include about 2 weeks worth of supervised flying with a senior jump pilot or the DZO if he's a pilot.

But hey, if you do decide to do it, record it on a go pro, if things go sideways I'm sure the news will pay a pretty penny for the video.

FYI only reason the idiot landed this 206 vs bailing and letting it go down was he was dumb enough to work for a DZO in South Africa which didn't provide him with a emergency rig.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Thanks for the info, guys.

I'm not familiar with the classes of jump liscenses. I know he has been jumping for many years, and is/was a weekend jump instructor for the DZ that recently closed. He's 62 and has been involved in skydiving for about 30 of those years. Not sure how many jumps he's done, (I think he's into 4 figures), but if I did take somebody up, he'd be type of guy I'd want to take.

He's got a chute for the pilot (me) if I want to take the door off. I'd be fine with that if he didn't want to use the door. I'm not terribly picky.

The land he drops into is not an issue. I'm sure if he landed near the tractor, any of the farmers would give him a ride back to the road.

The insurance issues bug me a little. If something happens, It'll be my wife and kids that suffer, since I'll most likely be a in the great hereafter when the insurance payout is being squabbled over.

Hmm, don't know what I'm gonna do on this one. I really hadn't had any reservations until now, but you dudes gave me some things to ponder upon. Hell, I just figured going up and letting an old fart slip out the door wouldn't be a big deal.

 

[James331]

Thanks for the info, guys.

I'm not familiar with the classes of jump liscenses. I know he has been jumping for many years, and is/was a weekend jump instructor for the DZ that recently closed. He's 62 and has been involved in skydiving for about 30 of those years. Not sure how many jumps he's done, (I think he's into 4 figures), but if I did take somebody up, he'd be type of guy I'd want to take.

He's got a chute for the pilot (me) if I want to take the door off. I'd be fine with that if he didn't want to use the door. I'm not terribly picky.

The land he drops into is not an issue. I'm sure if he landed near the tractor, any of the farmers would give him a ride back to the road.

The insurance issues bug me a little. If something happens, It'll be my wife and kids that suffer, since I'll most likely be a in the great hereafter when the insurance payout is being squabbled over.

Hmm, don't know what I'm gonna do on this one. I really hadn't had any reservations until now, but you dudes gave me some things to ponder upon. Hell, I just figured going up and letting an old fart slip out the door wouldn't be a big deal.

It's not a big deal till it is.

Sound like your friend is a D license TI, so he probably knows what he's doing.

There was a very accomplished skydiver (skydive equilvent to a ATP/CFI) who died about a week ago jumping from a 182, snagged the harness near the landing gear, canopy got deployed somehow, brought the whole plane down, the plane was flown by a jump pilot at a DZ and the jumpship had all the skydiving bells and whistles.

Has your buddy jumped a 182 without a jump step before?


Personally I'd view it like this, would you fly acro or formation without any training? You think you should fly a jumper without any training?

There is a very good chance it will be a complete non event, but there is also the slight chance it will get very hairy very fast, do you feel confident you could handle that?

 

[OkieFlyer]

It's not a big deal till it is.

Sound like your friend is a D license TI, so he probably knows what he's doing.

There was a very accomplished skydiver (skydive equilvent to a ATP/CFI) who died about a week ago jumping from a 182, snagged the harness near the landing gear, canopy got deployed somehow, brought the whole plane down, the plane was flown by a jump pilot at a DZ and the jumpship had all the skydiving bells and whistles.

Has your buddy jumped a 182 without a jump step before?


Personally I'd view it like this, would you fly acro or formation without any training? You think you should fly a jumper without any training?

There is a very good chance it will be a complete non event, but there is also the slight chance it will get very hairy very fast, do you feel confident you could handle that?

Good points.

Don't know if he's jumped without a jump step.

I'm confident, I could handle certain emergencies, however, I'm not confident I could effectively pilot the 182 minus a horizontal stabilizer. That wasn't in the Jeppesen book.

I suppose I'm leaning toward not doing it, but I wanted to hear from somebody with at least some experience on the subject. I also didn't want to just decline without some consideration because, well, it might be fun, and I hate to bail on something that might be a fun new experience, provided the risks aren't too great or too many. I'll be the first to admit that I don't always assess risks like most folks do. That's why I ask the opinions of the fine folks of POA to help me decide if I'm fixin' to commit some jackassery

 

[JCranford]

As a skydiver with 3500 jumps as well as instructor ratings, I'm a little surprised your buddy would ask you to do this. After 30 years he may have gotten a little complacent. As James suggests, its not really a big deal until it is. And then its usually a REALLY big deal involving dead people and plane crashes.

Respectfully decline and tell your buddy to come down and see us at Skydive Dallas.

James, do you have a link to the incident you mentioned? Nothing out there about this in the community.

There WAS an incident recently where a tandem pair got hung up on exit but after about 15 minutes, were able to free themselves and both the tandem pair and the plane landed safely.

 

[write-stuff]

As a former skydiver and jump pilot I can tell you that there is an elevated risk. It can be done safely but there is definitely increased risk. I've jumped from ultralights, hot air balloons, open cockpit Stearmans, and a Citabria into private property, but everyone understood the risks involved. As far as the FAA is concerned, comply with airspace rules, don't do it over congested areas, and file a NOTAM.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Thanks again everyone.

Just for kicks, how would you compare the risks of hauling a skydiver to towing a glider? I have done some towing, and I'm fairly comfortable with it. Having never done any skydiving ops, my feeble mind was thinking it would be less of a big deal than towing, but I could be dead wrong about that. I reckon with a glider I can always release at any time, but I don't think my plane has a quick release mechanism for a hung up chute.

 

[James331]

As a skydiver with 3500 jumps as well as instructor ratings, I'm a little surprised your buddy would ask you to do this. After 30 years he may have gotten a little complacent. As James suggests, its not really a big deal until it is. And then its usually a REALLY big deal involving dead people and plane crashes.

Respectfully decline and tell your buddy to come down and see us at Skydive Dallas.

James, do you have a link to the incident you mentioned? Nothing out there about this in the community.

There WAS an incident recently where a tandem pair got hung up on exit but after about 15 minutes, were able to free themselves and both the tandem pair and the plane landed safely.

The incident is on dropzone and it was very similar to the one you mentioned, minus the outcome.

 

[Apache123]

Thanks again everyone.

Just for kicks, how would you compare the risks of hauling a skydiver to towing a glider? I have done some towing, and I'm fairly comfortable with it. Having never done any skydiving ops, my feeble mind was thinking it would be less of a big deal than towing, but I could be dead wrong about that. I reckon with a glider I can always release at any time, but I don't think my plane has a quick release mechanism for a hung up chute.

Well there's your solution. Put him in roller blades and have him hold the tow hook.

 

[jspilot]

Andrew I have no clue if this is a good idea or not( leaning towards no based on what I've read) but I have experience flying around sky diving in progress. The question I'd have is, do you know all the radio procedures? It's one thing to consider your own safety, which is important, but please consider all the other pilots flying around too. I know the jump pilots have to announce a few things before releasing the jumpers and once they have been realesed.

I'll tell you this, I'd never do it.

 

[Kritchlow]

Andrew I have no clue if this is a good idea or not( leaning towards no based on what I've read) but I have experience flying around sky diving in progress. The question I'd have is, do you know all the radio procedures? It's one thing to consider your own safety, which is important, but please consider all the other pilots flying around too. I know the jump pilots have to announce a few things before releasing the jumpers and once they have been realesed.

I'll tell you this, I'd never do it.

Does who know the radio procedures??

I promise you the jump pilots here know them. We are professionals.

 

[FlyingTiger]

Some interesting threads on Drop Zone. See there was a recent attempted murder by parachute tampering. The intended victim was extremely lucky. Her main chute failed and the back up only deployed partially.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/for...rum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=173586975

 

[OkieFlyer]

Andrew I have no clue if this is a good idea or not( leaning towards no based on what I've read) but I have experience flying around sky diving in progress. The question I'd have is, do you know all the radio procedures? It's one thing to consider your own safety, which is important, but please consider all the other pilots flying around too. I know the jump pilots have to announce a few things before releasing the jumpers and once they have been realesed.

I'll tell you this, I'd never do it.

I've been doing some reading on the subject. Sounds pretty straight forward, but I would need to have him give me a little instruction on how things are generally done. As I said, he's been a jump trainer for many years, so I'm certain he knows his stuff. I would also like to visit with the owner of the jump school nearby as he is also the main jump pilot. As far as other pilots, I'd certainly be as cautious as possible and make my intentions known to others that may be around. Traffic is generally pretty sparse around here, which is advantageous in this case. I actually can't think of a time when I have heard anyone else on the CTAF while I was up. I'm still undecided. I appreciate your input.

 

[Kritchlow]

I'm still not clear how he will get out the door..

 

[weilke]

Understand that you as the pilot are responsible for the entire thing. The skydiver doesn't have a certificate, so the FAA has a very limited ability (short of civil fines or criminal prosecution) to hold a skydiver responsbile. You are responsible for the safe operation (105.5) and you are responsible that the reserve is properly packed (105.43). You are also responsible for ensuring that the skydiver is not drunk or under the influence of drugs (105.7).

 

[ClimbnSink]

I'm still not clear how he will get out the door..

You can push past a regular door(Cessna/Piper) and jump. Is of course a risk of bending something. Higher risk of premature deployment and killing everybody, then using a proper door. Usually the only people that want to try this are lowtimers that are still horny for jumps and haven't seen enough stupid in their jumping hobbies. Short story, can be legal and can (and has been) done without a problem but most experienced jumpers/pilots would say it ain't worth the bother and extra risk.

 

[RyanB]

Personally I would not try this.

 

[Kritchlow]

You can push past a regular door(Cessna/Piper) and jump. Is of course a risk of bending something. Higher risk of premature deployment and killing everybody, then using a proper door. Usually the only people that want to try this are lowtimers that are still horny for jumps and haven't seen enough stupid in their jumping hobbies. Short story, can be legal and can (and has been) done without a problem but most experienced jumpers/pilots would say it ain't worth the bother and extra risk.

Exactly... I suppose it's possible to muscle yourself out, but it would be ugly. The premature deployment was one of my big concerns.

 

[Anymouse]

I'm still not clear how he will get out the door..

Not sure what kind of plane the OP has, but there are a lot of planes out there that are pre-approved to fly with one door removed. No paperwork involved IIRC.

 

[Kritchlow]

Not sure what kind of plane the OP has, but there are a lot of planes out there that are pre-approved to fly with one door removed. No paperwork involved IIRC.

That would certainly make the task easier!!

 

[Anymouse]

Not sure what kind of plane the OP has, but there are a lot of planes out there that are pre-approved to fly with one door removed. No paperwork involved IIRC.

That would certainly make the task easier!!

Just did a bit of Google-Fu. It seems that the FAA used to list a bunch of aircraft that were approved in AC 105-2, but stopped that with the D revision. Here is a link to the C revision. The list is at the bottom of the page.

http://parachuteshop.com/part_1052c_faa_advisory_circula.htm

 

[weilke]

Just did a bit of Google-Fu. It seems that the FAA used to list a bunch of aircraft that were approved in AC 105-2, but stopped that with the D revision. Here is a link to the C revision. The list is at the bottom of the page.

http://parachuteshop.com/part_1052c_faa_advisory_circula.htm

The A36 has conditions to fly with the door removed in the POH. Unless you want a rolling door or air deflector, no paperwork required.

 

[OkieFlyer]

I'm still not clear how he will get out the door..

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I can take the door off.

Not sure what kind of plane the OP has, but there are a lot of planes out there that are pre-approved to fly with one door removed. No paperwork involved IIRC.

No offense intended whatsoever, but there are some pretty good clues in in my avatar and in my signature

It's a 182.

You can push past a regular door(Cessna/Piper) and jump. Is of course a risk of bending something. Higher risk of premature deployment and killing everybody, then using a proper door. Usually the only people that want to try this are lowtimers that are still horny for jumps and haven't seen enough stupid in their jumping hobbies. Short story, can be legal and can (and has been) done without a problem but most experienced jumpers/pilots would say it ain't worth the bother and extra risk.

Yeah, I think the door would be a hazard for sure. I'd rather leave the door in the hangar.

 

[Anymouse]

No offense intended whatsoever, but there are some pretty good clues in in my avatar and in my signature

It's a 182.

None taken. And yeah I'm a lazy and clueless bastard!!

 

[OkieFlyer]

None taken. And yeah I'm a lazy and clueless bastard!!

Haha! I wouldn't have gone that far, but........

 

[jspilot]

Does who know the radio procedures??

I promise you the jump pilots here know them. We are professionals.

I think it is pretty obvious who I am directing the question to when I refer to the poster by name in the first line of my message. Yes I have nothing but respect for the jump pilots-- they seem to work very hard at the airport I fly out of.

 

[Kritchlow]

I think it is pretty obvious who I am directing the question to when I refer to the poster by name in the first line of my message. Yes I have nothing but respect for the jump pilots-- they seem to work very hard at the airport I fly out of.

Yeah, I missed it.
You guys are a tough crowd here!