Has anyone done Rational Recovery instead of AA?

[JeffDG]

What 'tactics' ?

I post from a static IP. It shouldn't be too hard to rule me out as the 'unregistered'.

Watch out...you'll be deemed in violation of the "Core Values" (whatever that means today) and the whole Medical Topics forum will be shut down as a result.

 

[Palmpilot]

Glad to - but who's Louis?

He's a new member of the forum:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1944692&postcount=23

 

[SCCutler]

He's a new member of the forum:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1944692&postcount=23

Ah!

Thanks!

 

[weilke]

The post was not from a home office router.

Ok, then the other way around. Which of my prior posts matches in IP to the one in question ?

(this one should be from 50.242.223.179)

 

[Everskyward]

Ok, then the other way around. Which of my prior posts matches in IP to the one in question ?

(this one should be from 50.242.223.179)

That IP matches what I see. The post in question is from a device (not your router) which you have used before.

 

[Unregistered]

I am the last unregistered poster. I am also the one who was trying to give an upside to AA and the recovery aspect. I have never, ever engaged in arguing on this site. (Or any other) The last post did come from my cell phone as I was not at my laptop. And, I am NOT an AA counselor. AA doesn't have counselors.

 

[weilke]

That IP matches what I see. The post in question is from a device (not your router) which you have used before.

Yet I didn't make that 'unregistered' post.

PM me the posts, the IPs they came from and what carrier they link back to. If you don't I'll just have to assume that you are making things up.

 

[Everskyward]

Yet I didn't make that 'unregistered' post.

PM me the posts, the IPs they came from and what carrier they link back to. If you don't I'll just have to assume that you are making things up.

Done.

 

[weilke]

Done.

Thanks. That IP narrowed it down to me and 96 million other AT&T subscribers.

 

[Everskyward]

Thanks. That IP narrowed it down to me and 96 million other AT&T subscribers.

Did you read the PM I sent you in reply?

Note that the content PMs are not to be discussed on the main forum.

 

[Everskyward]

I am the last unregistered poster. I am also the one who was trying to give an upside to AA and the recovery aspect. I have never, ever engaged in arguing on this site. (Or any other) The last post did come from my cell phone as I was not at my laptop. And, I am NOT an AA counselor. AA doesn't have counselors.

I agree that you are the unregistered poster who I originally questioned. Your posts are still up because you were polite and were not trolling, but the Rules of Conduct state that you should not post at Unregistered unless you have some sensitive information you need to keep private. That was not evident from your posts which seemed pretty non-incriminating. If I'm wrong about that then I'm sorry.

 

[weilke]

Did you read the PM I sent you in reply?

Note that the content PMs are not to be discussed on the main forum.

You accuse me of doing something I didn't do (posting 'unregistered' pretending to be someone else) and your 'evidence' is an IP address match from a past post with a floating IP that could be assigned to any AT&T device that picks up a tower around Joint base Anacostia. As those are the towers that cover Reagan airport, that IP handles traffic from my device and probably millions others.

I didn't post the IP or any other identifiable information from your PM.

You are handling your moderator duties rather poorly.

 

[Everskyward]

You accuse me of doing something I didn't do (posting 'unregistered' pretending to be someone else) and your 'evidence' is an IP address match from a past post with a floating IP that could be assigned to any AT&T device that picks up a tower around Joint base Anacostia. As those are the towers that cover Reagan airport, that IP handles traffic from my device and probably millions others.

I didn't post the IP or any other identifiable information from your PM.

You are handling your moderator duties rather poorly.

I didn't accuse you of posting anything from the PM. It was merely a warning since I saw it going in that direction.

You realize that there were only two posters of the thousand of POA members who have posted from that IP address. One of them was you. If that was a massive coincidence then I apologize. But it definitely illuminates the difficulties of allowing anonymous posts. People troll and masquerade as others and post #107 is still a trolling post not made by the person in question.

 

[weilke]

You realize that there were only two posters of the thousand of POA members who have posted from that IP address. One of them was you.

And you do realize that mobile devices draw from a pool of IPs with noting more than a loose geographic connection to the subscriber or his location. Throughout the day, my cell had 4 different IPs from the same block as the one you cited. The fact that sometime over the last 6 years that IP was transiently assigned to my phone does not in any way imply that I had anything to do with posting that 'unregistered' post today.

 

[bbchien]

....."sigh"......

And you do realize that mobile devices draw from a pool of IPs with noting more than a loose geographic connection to the subscriber or his location. Throughout the day, my cell had 4 different IPs from the same block as the one you cited. The fact that sometime over the last 6 years that IP was transiently assigned to my phone does not in any way imply that I had anything to do with posting that 'unregistered' post today.

That IP matches what I see. The post in question is from a device (not your router) which you have used before.

......"double sigh"......

Ya'll treat Louis well. This is one of the reasons I left, and will remain, mostly "not here".....

 

[RJM62]

Unregistered does not talk about a close relation. He or she only talks about witnessing that AA "works". For all we know they could be an AA counselor. If this information is too sensitive for them to post under their own screen name they can elect not to post at all.

There's no such thing as an "AA counselor," Mari. That would violate the Eighth Tradition. The poster's insistence on anonymity probably is out of respect for the Twelfth Tradition.

http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf

I'm not in AA, but I am very familiar with the program. It seems to me that the anon poster(s) are simply honoring the program's own traditions, which make a lot of sense once you understand the reasons for them. Anonymity, in AA, is not just for the protection of an individual's privacy. It's also for the benefit of the fellowship as a whole.

Rich

 

[Everskyward]

There's no such thing as an "AA counselor," Mari. That would violate the Eighth Tradition. The poster's insistence on anonymity probably is out of respect for the Twelfth Tradition.

http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf

I'm not in AA, but I am very familiar with the program. It seems to me that the anon poster(s) are simply honoring the program's own traditions, which make a lot of sense once you understand the reasons for them. Anonymity, in AA, is not just for the protection of an individual's privacy. It's also for the benefit of the fellowship as a whole.

Rich

Ok that makes sense.

I probably overreacted to the Unregistered who was posting in defense of AA but this thread has been plagued with a number of anonymous trolls. In fact it was resurrected by a troll. You can't see that because the posts were deleted; that is except for the one post where someone posed as the AA defender. The real AA defender posted later.

 

[Unregistered]

There's no such thing as an "AA counselor," Mari. That would violate the Eighth Tradition. Anonymity, in AA, is not just for the protection of an individual's privacy. It's also for the benefit of the fellowship as a whole.

Rich

and to protect the criminal identity of many of the doctors and pilots, implementing the program, responsible for the coercion, extortion, diagnosis tailoring, sham peer review (by unqualified AA lay people) and medical fraud.

Never disclose anything about your psychology or substance abuse history to your AME, Union, employer, or the FAA unless you get a DUI and are trapped. HIMS is criminal abuse of psychiatry and medical fraud...undetected psychopathy in the medical profession.

The $34 billion dollar AA rehab cartel has a lot to gain by diagnosing people with a non-existent disease where denial of the disease means you have the disease.

 

[Henning]

and to protect the criminal identity of many of the doctors and pilots, implementing the program, responsible for the coercion, extortion, diagnosis tailoring, sham peer review (by unqualified AA lay people) and medical fraud.

Never disclose anything about your psychology or substance abuse history to your AME, Union, employer, or the FAA unless you get a DUI and are trapped. HIMS is criminal abuse of psychiatry and medical fraud...undetected psychopathy in the medical profession.

The $34 billion dollar AA rehab cartel has a lot to gain by diagnosing people with a non-existent disease where denial of the disease means you have the disease.

I think you're the anonymous poster Mari has a problem with. There is absolutely no reason that post needs to be anonymous.

It all comes down to this is what the insurance companies want. The actuaries have enough data on this method that they can make accurate predictions and set accurate premiums.

 

[Everskyward]

I think you're the anonymous poster Mari has a problem with. There is absolutely no reason that post needs to be anonymous.

Yup...

 

[3393RP]

The problem with 12 step is that it is all based on the lie that you are not in control.

When you are an alcoholic, you are not in control of anything. I know, I lived it.

I'm sure there are more than a few people that would agree with me.

I've always found it amusing that people who aren't alcoholics make pronouncements about AA's efficacy and the mental condition of the alcoholic.

 

[Henning]

When you are an alcoholic, you are not in control of anything. I know, I lived it.

I'm sure there are more than a few people that would agree with me.

I've always found it amusing that people who aren't alcoholics make pronouncements about AA's efficacy and the mental condition of the alcoholic.

Yes you are, you just choose not to exercise that control, this is the nature of Free Will. What AA does is gets people to exercise control, which is why telling them they aren't in control is a mistake. As for alcoholics, I have way too much experience at dealing with them and their drama.

 

[3393RP]

Yes you are, you just choose not to exercise that control, this is the nature of Free Will. What AA does is gets people to exercise control, which is why telling them they aren't in control is a mistake. As for alcoholics, I have way too much experience at dealing with them and their drama.

I see. Once again your vast knowledge trumps that of a person who actually knows the terrain.

Certainly your experience counts. That experience was answering the phone when your father's patients called, right? The foolish things you say are comical.

You should get the job of the bearded old man that lives in a cave on a mountaintop dispensing knowledge to the supplicants that seek the understanding of life.

Although you're probably overqualified.

 

[RJM62]

and to protect the criminal identity of many of the doctors and pilots, implementing the program, responsible for the coercion, extortion, diagnosis tailoring, sham peer review (by unqualified AA lay people) and medical fraud.

Never disclose anything about your psychology or substance abuse history to your AME, Union, employer, or the FAA unless you get a DUI and are trapped. HIMS is criminal abuse of psychiatry and medical fraud...undetected psychopathy in the medical profession.

The $34 billion dollar AA rehab cartel has a lot to gain by diagnosing people with a non-existent disease where denial of the disease means you have the disease.

That's one of the more bizarre posts I've read.

AA is a self-supported organization that gets its funds from literally passing a hat around the room. They routinely refuse contributions, fees, or other funds that don't come from individual AA members or groups. No records of individual contributions to the groups are kept, and no one is required to contribute.

Most of the money goes to pay the rent to the organization whose room they're using (usually a church or community organization) and to buy coffee. Local groups may also contribute to the parent organization or the local Intergroup, both of which also refuse funds from non-alcoholics.

Any two or more people who want to get sober can call themselves an AA group. They are not required to be approved by the parent organization or anyone else, nor even to notify the Intergroup of their existence. They remain just as "official" as any other AA group.

Some AA groups don't even have permanent members or officers, such as those that meet at hotels, cruise ships, truck stops, and so forth. Usually these meetings are publicized by a notice or announcement that "Friends of Bill W." will be meeting in such and such a room at such and such a time.

Some AA members go into jails and prisons to serve as sponsors for meetings for inmates. Obviously, no hats are passed at these meetings because prisoners have no money, and the sponsors are not paid or reimbursed for their time and expenses.

Neither do AA members or groups provide "peer reviews" or diagnoses. Their traditions require them to be "forever non-professional." A member may agree to verify that another member has been active in the program (for example, if a person wants an FAA medical) upon that member's request, but is otherwise forbidden from violating another member's anonymity.

Most AA groups will also stamp forms or provide receipts to probationers and parolees so they can prove their attendance at meetings to their POs or judges. But the groups are not required to do so, they do not accept any compensation if they choose to do so, and they vouch for nothing other than that the person was physically present at the meeting.

If AA is a cartel, it's the most poorly-run cartel in the history of cartels.

Many rehab organizations, some better than others, do integrate AA into their programs. That's true. But AA doesn't get a dime from these organizations. Again, they are forbidden by their own rules from taking any money from non-alcoholics, including rehab organizations.

If you have a beef with the rehab industry or the HIMS protocols, it's with those organizations. AA neither endorses nor opposes their using AA as a part of their programs, and receives no compensation if the organizations choose to do so.

Rich

 

[Unregistered]

Neither do AA members or groups provide "peer reviews" or diagnoses. Their traditions require them to be "forever non-professional." A member may agree to verify that another member has been active in the program (for example, if a person wants an FAA medical) upon that member's request, but is otherwise forbidden from violating another member's anonymity.



Many rehab organizations, some better than others, do integrate AA into their programs. That's true. But AA doesn't get a dime from these organizations. Again, they are forbidden by their own rules from taking any money from non-alcoholics, including rehab organizations.


Rich

Wrong,

AA Peers in the HIMS program will collude with your AME, Union, and Company, providing false information to tailor an axis II or SUD diagnosis (operating as a 501c3) with no due process. You can ask: "who provided this 'peer' review information?", but your peer monitor and AME will not disclose who made the statements slandering your character.

This is, in fact, a rigged game, with 'preferred' treatment centers (90% of which are stepper BS, read...insurance fraud), preferred senior AME (with a financial interest in said treatment centers), preferred Union personnel (Narcissists, bullies, and AA zealots who think they have special knowledge), preferred lawyers who know 'how we do business' and don't bite the hand that feeds them, preferred AA HIMS contract, preferred EAP administrators participating in the fraud, a preferred modality that only works for 5% of people but makes a fortune your AME and the psychopaths in the FAA, preferred junk science alcohol biomarkers such as EtG, and preferred labs who can collude and conspire to commit forensic fraud, all with zero accountability and a medical front group not recognized by the ABMS intentionally diagnosing trauma as axis II and SUD to prevent whistleblower testimony in court.

AA was no grass roots effort to pick up low bottom drunks out of their vomit after the stock market crash. AA was designed to shut them up. Rockefeller and Firestone had input into the beginning of AA and put up some of the money.

So, you see, something that looks benign on the surface, is actually a $35 billion dollar criminal enterprise, abusing psychiatry for money. There is no such thing as an alcoholic, psychopathy notwithstanding. Denial is a false construct that has been disproven.

Its the perfect funnel for bullies, sociopaths, psychopaths, unethical religious zealots, re-invented felons (who can't practice medicine in any other field), Reagan Era geriatric drug war dinosaurs, prohibitionists, and stupid people that believe the delusional narcissistic ramblings of a serial philanderer, pathological liar, manipulator, and delusional sociopath as though these were the inspired word of god. AA is also a cult religion very similar in dynamics to scientology and having nothing to do with alcohol or substance abuse and everything to do with the money.

 

[Henning]

I see. Once again your vast knowledge trumps that of a person who actually knows the terrain.

Certainly your experience counts. That experience was answering the phone when your father's patients called, right? The foolish things you say are comical.

You should get the job of the bearded old man that lives in a cave on a mountaintop dispensing knowledge to the supplicants that seek the understanding of life.

Although you're probably overqualified.

I lived with multiple raging alcoholics for years and have been dealing with them as crew all my life. I have watched them go through programs and fail, I have seen them go through programs and succeed. It's all about choice. If AA gets them to make that choice, fine, but if they make it for the wrong reason, it doesn't address why they chose to be alcoholics to begin with. Get it yet? I've had more hours of lecture in psychiatry than most any working psychiatrist, from a workin psychiatric professor. Yeah, I understand a thing or two.

I also have a friend who's mom abandoned her at 12 for the relationships of 12 step programs.

 

[weilke]

Wrong,

AA Peers in the HIMS program will collude with your AME, Union, and Company, providing false information to tailor an axis II or SUD diagnosis (operating as a 501c3) with no due process. You can ask: "who provided this 'peer' review information?", but your peer monitor and AME will not disclose who made the statements slandering your character.

This is, in fact, a rigged game, with 'preferred' treatment centers (90% of which are stepper BS, read...insurance fraud), preferred senior AME (with a financial interest in said treatment centers), preferred Union personnel (Narcissists, bullies, and AA zealots who think they have special knowledge), preferred lawyers who know 'how we do business' and don't bite the hand that feeds them, preferred AA HIMS contract, preferred EAP administrators participating in the fraud, a preferred modality that only works for 5% of people but makes a fortune your AME and the psychopaths in the FAA, preferred junk science alcohol biomarkers such as EtG, and preferred labs who can collude and conspire to commit forensic fraud, all with zero accountability and a medical front group not recognized by the ABMS intentionally diagnosing trauma as axis II and SUD to prevent whistleblower testimony in court.

AA was no grass roots effort to pick up low bottom drunks out of their vomit after the stock market crash. AA was designed to shut them up. Rockefeller and Firestone had input into the beginning of AA and put up some of the money.

So, you see, something that looks benign on the surface, is actually a $35 billion dollar criminal enterprise, abusing psychiatry for money. There is no such thing as an alcoholic, psychopathy notwithstanding. Denial is a false construct that has been disproven.

Its the perfect funnel for bullies, sociopaths, psychopaths, unethical religious zealots, re-invented felons (who can't practice medicine in any other field), Reagan Era geriatric drug war dinosaurs, prohibitionists, and stupid people that believe the delusional narcissistic ramblings of a serial philanderer, pathological liar, manipulator, and delusional sociopath as though these were the inspired word of god. AA is also a cult religion very similar in dynamics to scientology and having nothing to do with alcohol or substance abuse and everything to do with the money.

You should really drink less.

 

[Unregistered]

You should really drink less.

You should research more.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I lived with multiple raging alcoholics for years and have been dealing with them as crew all my life. I have watched them go through programs and fail, I have seen them go through programs and succeed. It's all about choice. If AA gets them to make that choice, fine, but if they make it for the wrong reason, it doesn't address why they chose to be alcoholics to begin with. Get it yet? I've had more hours of lecture in psychiatry than most any working psychiatrist, from a workin psychiatric professor. Yeah, I understand a thing or two.

I also have a friend who's mom abandoned her at 12 for the relationships of 12 step programs.

The mom was totally wrong as far as A.A. Is concerned. A.A. Would never advise that. They would advise the exact opposite. As for your being " around alcoholics , members of your crew, etc." That's also just babble.certainly not a basisfor an "expert" opinion. Many psychiatrists have wound up in A.A. Not to mention doctors, lawyers, ministers, etc. So that statement is also hot air. As for Ford or a Rockefeller funding A.A. That is also untrue. Rockefeller offered, was turned down by the Doctor who founded A.A. Explaining that money would damage its goals. A.A. Has gotten thousands more people sober since its founding in 1936 than any other program of which there have been many and they still come and go. You'd better stick to airplanes where you seem to be right fifty percent of the time. Most well known A.A. Rehabs. Are run on the principals of A.A. Because it's the most effective. Dr. Bruce is right. You are wrong.,

 

[Henning]

My dad treated 10s of thousands of addicts a year. As the Clinical Director of Psychiatry for the State of Missouri for about 2 decades, he was not particularly impressed with the 12 step process either.

Amie's mom didn't do that because of AA, Amie's mom did that because AA failed to address the root issue.

 

[Unregistered]

Many psychiatrists have wound up in A.A. Not to mention doctors, lawyers, ministers, etc. So that statement is also hot air.

Indeed, many psychiatrists and doctors have ended up in AA. Many, after committing egregious crimes. What do psychopaths do when they are put in charge? They exploit people for money. Whole bunch of lawyers, pilots, Hollywood actors, and media people too. A cult needs its point people to shut down any criticism or scientifically based alternatives that actually have a success rate beyond religious extortion of a professional license.

A.A. Has gotten thousands more people sober since its founding in 1936 than any other program of which there have been many and they still come and go. You'd better stick to airplanes where you seem to be right fifty percent of the time. Most well known A.A. Rehabs. Are run on the principals of A.A. Because it's the most effective. Dr. Bruce is right. You are wrong.,

Because part of the 'suggested' missionary work in AA is to proselytize and tell everyone how it saved you and how great it is. This is like: " put the lotion in the basket or get the hose again." Anecdotal story telling and spiritual, white light experiences on LSD and Belladonna, do not an alcohol abuse treatment plan make. Your ad hominem attack is a prototypical example of the Sociopathy that exists in your funnel of re-invented felons, wet brains, brachycephalic morons, and brainwashed sycophants. Dr. Bruce is a doctor who believes in pseudoscience and faith healing cult nonsense. You don't have a disease that can only be cured by AA meetings. You don't have a disease that makes you drink alcohol and do bad things.

Rockefeller did put up money for Wilson. Wilson never traded stocks and was not a stock broker. He was addicted to cigarettes and ingratiating himself with young women 'in the rooms'

a swindler and a hack...con artist du jour.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Indeed, many psychiatrists and doctors have ended up in AA. Many, after committing egregious crimes. What do psychopaths do when they are put in charge? They exploit people for money. Whole bunch of lawyers, pilots, Hollywood actors, and media people too. A cult needs its point people to shut down any criticism or scientifically based alternatives that actually have a success rate beyond religious extortion of a professional license.



Because part of the 'suggested' missionary work in AA is to proselytize and tell everyone how it saved you and how great it is. This is like: " put the lotion in the basket or get the hose again." Anecdotal story telling and spiritual, white light experiences on LSD and Belladonna, do not an alcohol abuse treatment plan make. Your ad hominem attack is a prototypical example of the Sociopathy that exists in your funnel of re-invented felons, wet brains, brachycephalic morons, and brainwashed sycophants. Dr. Bruce is a doctor who believes in pseudoscience and faith healing cult nonsense. You don't have a disease that can only be cured by AA meetings. You don't have a disease that makes you drink alcohol and do bad things.

Rockefeller did put up money for Wilson. Wilson never traded stocks and was not a stock broker. He was addicted to cigarettes and ingratiating himself with young women 'in the rooms'

a swindler and a hack...con artist du jour.

Actually A.A. Is a program that feels you should want to change your life from the mess you've made of it and that its up to you to join. They do not advertise or proselytize as you blab in your rant. Please show proof where anyone gave money to help start A.A. Your statement on this is untrue, a lie. You sound like you may need help yourself ! Usually someone that makes these kind of statements has tried and failed to beat an addiction. I should add that A.A was founded and was created for alcohol abuse. Drug problems are better left to narcotics anon. They might be able to help you.

 

[Unregistered]

Actually A.A. Is a program that feels you should want to change your life from the mess you've made of it and that its up to you to join. They do not advertise or proselytize as you blab in your rant. Please show proof where anyone gave money to help start A.A. Your statement on this is untrue, a lie. You sound like you may need help yourself ! Usually someone that makes these kind of statements has tried and failed to beat an addiction. I should add that A.A was founded and was created for alcohol abuse. Drug problems are better left to narcotics anon. They might be able to help you.

So TV shows like "Intervention" and movies like "Flight" are just coincidence then? The fact that our drug czar is a card carrying stepper is a coincidence? Prison 'service work', taking pamphlets to the courts, Coercion to AA in your company's EAP, and 'two hatter' 12 step rehab counselors and staff, coercing all clients into the church basement suicide shame cult, are not advertising...right...I think I see your point now.

Rockefeller influenced Wilson, he also gave him some money. Do the research and you will begin to discover that AA was not much help to anyone. AA has an enormous suicide death rate (just ask the doctors culled into this Kafkaesque nightmare), stimulates relapse behaviors, re-traumatizes already traumatized people, and functions more as drug war prohibitionists' lobotomy for free thinking intellectuals and whistle blowers, all brought to you by captains of industry, unscrupulous unions, greedy felon doctors, psychopathic profiteers, moral entrepreneurs, controlled politicians, and the blinkered apathetic populace led to believe that: "witches are bad, and only WE know how to find witches"

Thanks for the gracious offer of help. I overcame my alcohol abuse and transient grief and empowered myself to be happy again. I lost my career, for the sake of speaking the truth and to warn others never to disclose a transient psychological or substance abuse issue to your union, a co-worker, the FAA, your AME, or your company. You are far better off seeking empowerment psychotherapy in a different country (assuming the Bill W. cult hasn't proselytized their snake oil there) and using an alias. Never ever tell the FAA anything unless you get a DUI. In that case, you'd best just spread your legs and try to enjoy it, or stand and fight.

 

[RJM62]

Actually A.A. Is a program that feels you should want to change your life from the mess you've made of it and that its up to you to join. They do not advertise or proselytize as you blab in your rant. Please show proof where anyone gave money to help start A.A. Your statement on this is untrue, a lie. You sound like you may need help yourself ! Usually someone that makes these kind of statements has tried and failed to beat an addiction. I should add that A.A was founded and was created for alcohol abuse. Drug problems are better left to narcotics anon. They might be able to help you.

The Rockefeller connection is well-known. Rockefeller gave AA a gift of $1,000.00 and bought 400 copies of the "Big Book" in 1940. It's hardly breaking news. Both the Rockefeller Foundation and Bill Wilson told pretty much the same story: Wilson had hoped for much more, but Rockefeller was convinced that the organization needed to be self-supporting.

You have to understand that Wilson was a businessman and Bob Smith a physician, and early AA operated more as a medical charity than a self-help group. Newcomers typically were hospitalized for a time, cleaned up, provided with essentials such as food and clothing, and so forth, all at the expense of an organization that didn't yet exist and which had no money. AA, as such, grew out of a Holiness movement called the Oxford Group, and only became an independent organization when the "alcoholic contingent" began to be resented by the rest of the group.

By 1940, the fledgling AA organization was deeply in debt, and Wilson was trying to raise funds to keep it afloat. Various means were tried, some shady, and some possibly illegal, before the group leaned down to something resembling its present structure (basically the groups themselves; "Intergroups" supported by and serving multiple groups with services like publishing lists of local meetings, answering the phone, and setting up 12th-step meetings; and the General Service Office in New York).

I learned about these things when I was doing research as an undergrad, and I was surprised. The early years of the organization were nothing like what the organization is now; and some of what the founders, especially Wilson, did to keep the organization alive were embarrassing, to put it mildly. But none of it is a news scoop. Wilson, his wife Lois, and many others have written and spoken about it.

What AA is today, at its most basic level, is a bunch of rooms full of drunks trying to help each other get sober, using a set of principles that originated in a turn-of-the-century Holiness movement as well as lessons learned by the early members' failures as well as their successes. That's it. There's no sign-up, no registration is needed, no attendance is taken, no last names are used, and no records are kept (unless an attendee needs and asks for documentation to show a court, parole office, spouse, or whomever).

I've met people who hate pretty much anything, but until this thread, I've never met nor read the words of someone who hated AA. I mean, it's a voluntary organization that helps at least some of those who walk through its doors, and costs those who fail nothing to try. Some people may object to its religious origins and spiritual focus, but so what? Don't go if those things bother you. Or define the Higher Power as the group itself or some other non-deity if you like.

My hunch is that the unreg probably is someone who is the sort of Atheist who not only doesn't believe, but despises the fact that anyone does; and was at one time ordered to attend AA for some reason resulting from his or her own alcohol-related bad acts. That's the only reason I can think of why someone would positively hate an organization that helps many, hurts none, forces no one to attend, and costs society nothing.

Of course, that's just a hunch. People can become obsessed over all kinds of bizarre ****. All I know is that in my experience, about two-thirds of the people I know who went to AA for help eventually stopped drinking. Some never drank again after their first meetings. Others took a while longer. Still others failed. But those who failed were no worse off for having tried.

Rich

 

[3393RP]

Rich, his rants are some of the most bizarre crap I've ever read.

I'm guessing he's bitter because his own actions caused him to fail miserably at sobriety...

I lost my career, for the sake of speaking the truth and to warn others never to disclose a transient psychological or substance abuse issue to your union, a co-worker, the FAA, your AME, or your company.

His statements are the kind of stuff you would expect from an addict in denial.