Has anyone done Rational Recovery instead of AA?

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The whole 'higher power' thing just trades one addiction for another hopefully less destructive one, it doesn't address the root of why the addiction is felt necessary or desirable.
 
The rest of the program of AA DOES address the root of the problem. And, again, finding a higher power, like everything in AA is a suggestion. It is all in the books and literature. And there is a lot of good, long term sobriety. Statistics can, and have known to be incorrect.
 
I've seen it go both ways with AA, I will say the recovery statistic for AA is skewed against them due to all the court mandated people. If people don't choose to be there because they want to recover, they will not, and as soon as the court appointed period is over, they score as an AA failure.
 
Henning said:
I've seen it go both ways with AA, I will say the recovery statistic for AA is skewed against them due to all the court mandated people. If people don't choose to be there because they want to recover, they will not, and as soon as the court appointed period is over, they score as an AA failure.
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That's like looking at marriage / divorce statistics without a way to filter for marriages of convenience. Or any statistics that look at 'business starts' based on LLC filings and incorporations.
 
I'd have to say the studies I've read do adjust for the non-voluntary enrollment. The results are still pretty grim for AA. Those who just decide on their own not to drink and those who do so via AA come out to about the same. Those who have had a hospital inpatient intervention tend to fair twice as well as either of these.
 
Those " who just decide on their own to stop drinking" , and can, would not fit the description of an alcoholic. Abusing alcohol, yes. An alcoholic, a true alcoholic, cannot stop. The best way I've seen AA work, is to do inpatient, to medically detox and be removed from the ability to have access to alcohol, and the outside pressures of the world, where you can solely focus on yourself. Then come to AA, and learn how to live life on a daily basis, without your substance of choice. Without some sort of aftercare, that continues, a true alcoholic or addict, returning to the life they lived, will surely drink or use again. I am not bashing other programs. This is how I have witnessed the AA program work in many many lives, and be a success.
 
And AA does say, " our program is not for those who need it, it is for those who WANT it"
 
bbchien said:
It's like this: HIMS using AA which was the tool of choice in 1983, embedded in HIMS, has a 97% nonrecidivism rate since that time. There has been no in flight incident (though we are walking on eggshells).

NOBODY is willing to change a successful formula. It's not AA alone, it's the whole package. If the grounded pilot really objects to the wee amount of religion in AA, I would strongly suggest that the pilot spend that energy getting insight into the real issue, Alcohol. And then if he is still insistent, he can try any of a number of alternatives, knowing that he might be excluded if the rest of your package doesn't look TERRIFIC.

When a HIMS AME recommends a pilot to the F.A.S, it is his name on the line. It is also the FAS's judgment on the line (and his representatives and advisors). If one doesn't mind getting remanded to another year of recovery work, okay. But, I mind. I will tolerate "SMART" but I want the pilot recovered and able to run his own sobriety program. And the fellowship of in person bonding that occurs in an AA goes a long way to busting the isolation of alcohol. See, you have mates....and not on the other end of a computer screen.

We're not going to let anyone spoil the track record.

I tell the "conscientious objectors" to "Decide first if you want to be a pilot, and how badly. Everything else falls out from there". "If you don't want it that bad, do anything you like. FAA will decide when they get the package, and if you are remanded to more recovery work, so be it."

Thus endeth my sojourn tonight through POA. You all treat Louis, right now, you hear?
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Glad to - but who's Louis?

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Bruce, what you've written here is strong stuff, and needs to be read and understood.

The fact is, folks, the mere existence of a path back to the cockpit is a very big deal and, in my observation (and it has not been inconsequential), most who object to this process (and processes of similar rigor and substance) are simply
not mentally ready to get better... and they will not.

It is work, and hard work, at that; having others around you who will help is (IMHO) all the difference. You commit, and your colleagues will be warriors for you.
 
weilke said:
That's like looking at marriage / divorce statistics without a way to filter for marriages of convenience. Or any statistics that look at 'business starts' based on LLC filings and incorporations.
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Pretty much, statistics in all this are meaningless to the individual anyway because the individual has free will to make their own choice. If someone finds AA a useful tool to help them reinforce that choice through a positive social support system, I think that is just fine then. The thing about teaching 'higher power' that I object to is that it's not true and can actually cause a failure in the process more often than success.

There is only one thing that can change us, and that is us; that is the nature of free will. You get advice, you get inspiration, and that comes from a part of you that also exists on another dimensional plane with all other life and information, but the ability to make the choice and make the change comes from only one place, oneself. If one decides to 'turn it over to a higher power' the chances are the higher power isn't going to come through.

12 step itself has a Dark Side my friend Amie can tell you all about, her mom abandoned her for the fulfillment of 12 step relationships.
 
Unregistered said:
Yes, how badly do you want to fly? Besides, the only requirement for membership in AA is the "desire" to stop drinking. Everything else, including finding a higher power, is up to you. Your higher power could be a door knob. The key is to get out of your sense of "self" and let go of ego, so that you can admit you have a problem. And get help for that problem. smh
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Unregistered said:
The rest of the program of AA DOES address the root of the problem. And, again, finding a higher power, like everything in AA is a suggestion. It is all in the books and literature. And there is a lot of good, long term sobriety. Statistics can, and have known to be incorrect.
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Unregistered said:
Those " who just decide on their own to stop drinking" , and can, would not fit the description of an alcoholic. Abusing alcohol, yes. An alcoholic, a true alcoholic, cannot stop. The best way I've seen AA work, is to do inpatient, to medically detox and be removed from the ability to have access to alcohol, and the outside pressures of the world, where you can solely focus on yourself. Then come to AA, and learn how to live life on a daily basis, without your substance of choice. Without some sort of aftercare, that continues, a true alcoholic or addict, returning to the life they lived, will surely drink or use again. I am not bashing other programs. This is how I have witnessed the AA program work in many many lives, and be a success.
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Unregistered said:
And AA does say, " our program is not for those who need it, it is for those who WANT it"
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Why are you posting as Unregistered? It doesn't seem as if you have any sensitive information you need to keep private.

Here is a reminder about our Rules of Conduct.

Rules of Conduct said:
Pilots of America permits anonymous posting in the Medical Topics forum, as well as in the Lessons Learned forum, but ONLY when disclosing your OWN potential or existing medical condition, potential violation of FAA regulations, incident or accident in which you may have been involved. Posts made anonymously in response to such posts will be deleted unless the content of the response requires anonymity.
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Numerous posts have already been deleted from this thread.
 
SCCutler said:
Glad to - but who's Louis?

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Bruce, what you've written here is strong stuff, and needs to be read and understood.

The fact is, folks, the mere existence of a path back to the cockpit is a very big deal and, in my observation (and it has not been inconsequential), most who object to this process (and processes of similar rigor and substance) are simply
not mentally ready to get better... and they will not.

It is work, and hard work, at that; having others around you who will help is (IMHO) all the difference. You commit, and your colleagues will be warriors for you.
Click to expand...

Define better. 40 years ago they wouldn't have been considered broken. The pilots who built this industry were a bunch of drunks. Before Nancy Reagan and **** testing, pilots used blow to deal with the **** schedules. Changing all that with the War on Drugs and MADD didn't really affect the safety record of pilots. In fact, planes got better and pilots got worse.
 
Henning said:
Define better. 40 years ago they wouldn't have been considered broken. The pilots who built this industry were a bunch of drunks. Before Nancy Reagan and **** testing, pilots used blow to deal with the **** schedules. Changing all that with the War on Drugs and MADD didn't really affect the safety record of pilots. In fact, planes got better and pilots got worse.
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Dr. Bruce has explained AA quite well as well as how it works. Henning is in way over his head and should be embarrassed by his ignorance on the topic of A.A.. My sister would laugh out loud at him, sober 42 years through A.A., saved her relationship with her husband and her children, often states that if not for the people she met there , she would not have made it. ( read group therapy.) another who would laugh at henning would be the Vietnam vet who flew phantoms for the navy then flew until retirement for a major on overseas flights, left seat. Big A.A. Booster and very greatful. Neither are " crazy" as henning has stated in the past that they must be . As for the pioneers of aviation , the founders being a bunch of drunks, that's just ignorance. A.A. Demands nothing, simply suggests you clean up your act. Your free to fail and come back anytime you decide "your sick and tired of being sick and tired."
 
Unregistered said:
Those " who just decide on their own to stop drinking" , and can, would not fit the description of an alcoholic. Abusing alcohol, yes. An alcoholic, a true alcoholic, cannot stop.
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Do you know how self contradictory you are, even if I believe your premise.
If they can't stop how can AA help then?

But the psychological definition of alcohol abuse is different than your (or AA's) assertion.

At least I have the balls to post here under my real name rather than to hide behind UNREGISTERED
 
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Everskyward said:
Why are you posting as Unregistered? It doesn't seem as if you have any sensitive information you need to keep private.
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He (she) seems to be quite familiar with the AA process and may not be interested in broadcasting the fact that he or a close family member has an inside perspective. He has been nothing but polite in his defense of AA and I dont see why he shouldn't be afforded the protection of anonymity.
 
weilke said:
He (she) seems to be quite familiar with the AA process and may not be interested in broadcasting the fact that he or a close family member has an inside perspective. He has been nothing but polite in his defense of AA and I dont see why he shouldn't be afforded the protection of anonymity.
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Nothing in this particular Unregistered's post comes even close to something that would need anonymity. The fact that they are polite is the reason they are still there, unlike some previous trolling Unregistered posts.
 
Everskyward said:
Nothing in this particular Unregistered's post comes even close to something that would need anonymity.
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I know this is a hot button for you, but someone's inside knowledge/experience with alcoholism certainly could be something that justify anonymity. Not always, but there could be scenarios where it would be appropriate.
 
Bob Noel said:
I know this is a hot button for you, but someone's inside knowledge/experience with alcoholism certainly could be something that justify anonymity. Not always, but there could be scenarios where it would be appropriate.
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I agree that there are scenarios where it would be justified for someone to post as Unregistered. This does not appear to be one.
 
Everskyward said:
I agree that there are scenarios where it would be justified for someone to post as Unregistered. This does not appear to be one.
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I don't intend to be argumentative, but I am curious how you would know?
 
Everskyward said:
Why are you posting as Unregistered? It doesn't seem as if you have any sensitive information you need to keep private.

Here is a reminder about our Rules of Conduct.



Numerous posts have already been deleted from this thread.
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Since we have posters abusing the Anon post feature, we should remove it for everyone.
 
Bob Noel said:
I don't intend to be argumentative, but I am curious how you would know?
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All the poster is doing is supporting AA. They are not revealing any personal experiences. As far as the poster possibly knowing an alcoholic, I'm guessing almost everyone here does.
 
Everskyward said:
Nothing in this particular Unregistered's post comes even close to something that would need anonymity. The fact that they are polite is the reason they are still there, unlike some previous trolling Unregistered posts.
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Of course it warrants anonymity. He talks about either himself or a close relation (spouse?) with an alcohol problem. I doubt he would contribute his viewpoint without anonymity. Thats what the feature is for.
 
weilke said:
Of course it warrants anonymity. He talks about either himself or a close relation (spouse?) with an alcohol problem. I doubt he would contribute his viewpoint without anonymity. Thats what the feature is for.
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Unregistered does not talk about a close relation. He or she only talks about witnessing that AA "works". For all we know they could be an AA counselor. If this information is too sensitive for them to post under their own screen name they can elect not to post at all.
 
Everskyward said:
All the poster is doing is supporting AA. They are not revealing any personal experiences. As far as the poster possibly knowing an alcoholic, I'm guessing almost everyone here does.
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If any particular person were to post about their own knowledge of AA and such, you don't know if that would reveal information that is legally protected or considered sensitive (even if not legally required to be protected).

You shouldn't just consider the content of the post itself. You should consider what other information is already available and thus can be associated with the poster.
 
Bob Noel said:
If any particular person were to post about their own knowledge of AA and such, you don't know if that would reveal information that is legally protected or considered sensitive (even if not legally required to be protected).

You shouldn't just consider the content of the post itself. You should consider what other information is already available and thus can be associated with the poster.
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If you are that worried, don't post at all. This is the internet. You are not really anonymous.
 
Everskyward said:
Unregistered does not talk about a close relation. He or she only talks about witnessing that AA "works". For all we know they could be an AA counselor. If this information is too sensitive for them to post under their own screen name they can elect not to post at all.
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And those on this forum who have a genuine interest in the world of AA and drug recovery would not have the benefit of his perspective. Full of win.

This is from the sticky about usage of this forum:

This forum is one of those forums designated as "confidential" on Pilots of America. This means that you may, if you choose, post in this particular forum anonymously, and be assured that no public link between your post and you will be displayed in any form.

This is allowed so that you may ask questions, relay personal stories, or share other information which you might not otherwise want to do so with your name attached.

He is using the feature in exactly the way it is laid out in the sticky about usage rules for this particular forum. There is no requirement for him to have done anything illegal, violated a FAR and it doesn't matter whether it is him, his spouse, his kid or a colleague with a TS clearance who has been successful using AA to get off the bottle.

I know there is a conflict between the TOS and the directions for usage of this forum, but even under the TOS, disclosing information about your experience with substance abuse easily falls under the 'unless the content of the response requires anonymity' exemption.
 
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weilke said:
And those on this forum who have a genuine interest in the world of AA and drug recovery would not have the benefit of his perspective. Full of win.

This is from the sticky about usage of this forum:

This forum is one of those forums designated as "confidential" on Pilots of America. This means that you may, if you choose, post in this particular forum anonymously, and be assured that no public link between your post and you will be displayed in any form.

This is allowed so that you may ask questions, relay personal stories, or share other information which you might not otherwise want to do so with your name attached.

He is using the feature in exactly the way it is laid out in the sticky about usage rules for this particular forum. There is no requirement for him to have done anything illegal, violated a FAR and it doesn't matter whether it is him, his spouse, his kid or a colleague with a TS clearance who has been successful using AA to get off the bottle.
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The rules also state...

Pilots of America permits anonymous posting in the Medical Topics forum, as well as in the Lessons Learned forum, but ONLY when disclosing your OWN potential or existing medical condition, potential violation of FAA regulations, incident or accident in which you may have been involved. Posts made anonymously in response to such posts will be deleted unless the content of the response requires anonymity.
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This Unregistered was not posting about their own medical condition. If they were, it was not revealed in the posts. The posts were merely an endorsement of AA. Note that I have no feeling about AA one way or another.
 
To make it clear, it IS my own personal experience. Thank you for the assumptions
 
Everskyward said:
The rules also state...



This Unregistered was not posting about their own medical condition. If they were, it was not revealed in the posts. The posts were merely an endorsement of AA. Note that I have no feeling about AA one way or another.
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As I said, there is a conflict between the 'rules of conduct' and the directions given by Greebo in 2005 on how to use the medical forum. He has a valid interest in posting this anonymously and it wouldn't be posted without the shield of anonymity.
 
weilke said:
As I said, there is a conflict between the 'rules of conduct' and the directions given by Greebo in 2005 on how to use the medical forum. He has a valid interest in posting this anonymously and it wouldn't be posted without the shield of anonymity.
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I disagree with you and also your tactics in this thread.
 
weilke said:
So there is a post with two IP addresses ?

Please pm me the IP.
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No, there are two users who have used the same IP address as the last Unregistered poster. One of them has been arguing in this thread.
 
Everskyward said:
No, there are two users who have used the same IP address as the last Unregistered poster. One of them has been arguing in this thread.
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Last I know, nobody who has access to my home-office router is a participant on POA. I did not post any 'unregistered' posts on this thread.
 
weilke said:
Last I know, nobody who has access to my home-office router is a participant on POA. I did not post any 'unregistered' posts on this thread.
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The post was not from a home office router.
 
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