Has anybody had or known somebody who had a elevator/stabilator cable snap in flight?

DoubleD said:
no flaps gives a flatter approach
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good point

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A few people mentioned push rods vs cables. While a properly rigged cable setup "shouldn't" have lag there is definitely a difference in feel at least in boats. I've driven boats with cables, and with push / pull rods and the rods always felt like they gave better responses

Maybe "lag" isn't the right word, but cables do seem to "mute" some of the feedback

Incidentally I always felt Pipers were more responsive than Skyhawks... not sure if that's for aerodynamic reasons or the cable setup, but Archers and Warriors feel "sportier" (I'm using that term lightly) than Skyhawks
 
DoubleD said:
A more important reason to not use flaps would be that no flaps gives a flatter approach path and less attitude change required to flare and land---easier to manage with trim and power and better likelihood of a good outcome.
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Um...if you fly a two-degree approach path instead of a three-degree approach path, doesn't that require a two-degree pitch up instead of three to land, whether you've got flaps or not?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Um...if you fly a two-degree approach path instead of a three-degree approach path, doesn't that require a two-degree pitch up instead of three to land, whether you've got flaps or not?
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There's a difference between attitude and flight path. With flaps out, the nose will be down more for a given flight path, so the attitude change is larger in the flare.
 
Pitch and approach path are unrelated.


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Tantalum said:
Incidentally I always felt Pipers were more responsive than Skyhawks... not sure if that's for aerodynamic reasons or the cable setup, but Archers and Warriors feel "sportier" (I'm using that term lightly) than Skyhawks
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Probably what you're feeling is a function of having a stabilator rather than fixed stabilizer and elevator. I think you'd find the Cessna Cardinal (the only Cessna single with a stabilator) to be more like a PA-28 in pitch response than its Cessna stablemates.
 
MauleSkinner said:
But pitch change and flight path change are directly related.
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Only if speed is held Constant. I can fly a given glide slope at all sorts of pitches at different spots on the power curve.


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gsengle said:
Only if speed is held Constant. I can fly a given glide slope at all sorts of pitches at different spots on the power curve.


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True..all kinds of variables work into it...but requiring a larger pitch change to do the same job simply because no flaps are used isn't one of them.
 
MauleSkinner said:
True..all kinds of variables work into it...but requiring a larger pitch change to do the same job simply because no flaps are used isn't one of them.
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Actually you do wanna minimize required pitch change in flare in this scenario so using less flaps may well help.


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gsengle said:
Actually you do wanna minimize required pitch change in flare in this scenario so using less flaps may well help.


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The only part of it that will minimize pitch change is the pitch change required when adding flaps, and I agree on that. But it will make no difference in the flare.
 
The big part of the equation, as I see it, is breaking the descent. I would imaging different types have different characteristics on that with vs without flaps.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The only part of it that will minimize pitch change is the pitch change required when adding flaps, and I agree on that. But it will make no difference in the flare.
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I believe in most airplanes land flatter with no flaps so it does mean less of a pitch change at flare.

Flaps, more nose down in descent, and more nose up in flare. No flaps just the opposite. True in my plane...


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A Cherokee had the yoke break behind the panel recently, total loss of elevator and aileron control - they landed with trim if I'm not mistaken. As a Cherokee pilot I have mentally/chair flown the failure.
 
Guy I know took off in his large twin; as a result of a maintenance error, he had no aileron control after takeoff. Flew the plane in a long, wide pattern, controlling with rudder and differential power, landed (as I held short waiting to take off!) flawlessly.

Sobering stuff.
 
TylerSC said:
A Cherokee had the yoke break behind the panel recently, total loss of elevator and aileron control - they landed with trim if I'm not mistaken. As a Cherokee pilot I have mentally/chair flown the failure.
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Now there's a more likely scenario. The weld at the top of the control tee had fatigued and broken. For those trying to understand, the control tee is ahead of the instrument panel and the control wheel shafts are attached to it by means of U-joints, shafts and sprockets. These connections are at each end of a horizontal tube that is welded at its middle to a vertical tube that pivots near the bottom. The vertical rocks back and forth for elevator control and is moved that way by the control wheels pushing and pulling at the ends of the crosstube. The weld is subjected to considerable loads, and the tubing itself is thin stuff. I bet we see an AD someday on it. https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/opssvs/civil-aviation-safety-alerts-2016-14.html

Cessna has a different problem with the same sort of mechanism in their 172/180/185s. The bottom end of the control tee ( or "U" or "Y" in some) gets water in it and it rots out. If it gets corroded enough it just bends instead of working the elevator. One 172 had its fail with just the wind pushing on the elevator while tied down. Another issue that could turn into an AD someday as the fleet ages. Cessna issued an SB on it a long time ago. We do it if the owner agrees to it. I have yet to encounter an airplane that someone else has done this inspection on: https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/contacts/pubs/ourpdf.pdf?as_id=17090
 
Tantalum said:
The Cirrus I occasionally fly has "fake" trim (so to speak, queue Citizen5000000) so I'm more aware of the risk there... but I guess that's when you pull the red handle
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Actually, the Cirrus can be completely controllable in both pitch and roll by that "fake" trim in case of primary controls failure, as the trim spring cartridges are directly attached to elevator and aileron actuators (not the cables or yoke). It's described in the systems section of the POH and emergency procedures.
 
steingar said:
I couldn't land with just the doors since I only got one.
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Rest of the thread is interesting and I didn't have anything to add. But Professor, your statement sounds defeatist...

Sure you could. You'd just have to plan for only right turns.

Don't underestimate what you might have to do someday to survive.

If all you have is one door and you need it? Use it.
 
EugeneR said:
Actually, the Cirrus can be completely controllable in both pitch and roll by that "fake" trim in case of primary controls failure, as the trim spring cartridges are directly attached to elevator and aileron actuators (not the cables or yoke). It's described in the systems section of the POH and emergency procedures.
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Thanks, that's good to know. Although I think I may still pull the handle than risk losing it somewhere on short final trying to flare
 
When I started flying the man teaching me told me a story that happened at this airpark I was training at. He said this man owned a quicksilver style airplane. He was getting ready to take off when he came over the radio and said he had no elevator or it was stuck. The owner of the airpark told him to taxi on over and they would look at it. He said a few mins went by and the dude throttled up and took off. He got to about 300' altitude and maybe 500' or so off the far end of the runway when he started to go into a spin. He spun her all the way into the ground and was killed.

Tony
 
1600vw said:
When I started flying the man teaching me told me a story that happened at this airpark I was training at. He said this man owned a quicksilver style airplane. He was getting ready to take off when he came over the radio and said he had no elevator or it was stuck. The owner of the airpark told him to taxi on over and they would look at it. He said a few mins went by and the dude throttled up and took off. He got to about 300' altitude and maybe 500' or so off the far end of the runway when he started to go into a spin. He spun her all the way into the ground and was killed.

Tony
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That's one way to get rid of a hangar tenant so you can rent the hangar out for double what he was paying. :)

Kidding. Kidding.
 
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