Hard lesson

dmccormack

dmccormack

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dan Mc
A student who recently passed the PP let me know he was a bit anxious about flying XC solo.

I told him to map out a flight and we'd fly dual, but I'd stay out of it unless he asked.

We flew north the KERI yesterday. METARs and TAFs as well as FA indicated it would be a VFR day. We climbed to 8500 (the mid-day bumps were starting and he said he wasn't sure if he should climb over the few tiny CU at 5000 or so) and levelled off.

We flew with FF with Pitt App, looking ahead for any bunching of the cloud deck. It remained a beautiful September day -- until 30nm south of Erie.

We listened to the KERI ATIS which announced an overcast layer at 4200, winds 14G20. Hmm.....

Me: "Is that better or worse than forecast?"

"Worse...."

Me: "So what does that mean?"

"Not sure..."

Me: "OK..."

As we continued northbound, the layer below starting filling in. Ahead a layer of CU extended above our cruisng altitude.

"So, what are our options?"

"Get below the layer?"

"You're solo on this XC, remember?"

"Yeah..."

A long slow spiral down through a hole as Erie Approach was informed of our plans.

As if scripted, the hole started closing.

"Hmm...what now?"

"Uhhh....."

"You gotta stay out of those clouds -- I'm not filing -- you're on your own!"

Another hole seemed to open up to our right. He dove for it, building up speed way past Va.

"I kinda like our wings...."

"Hunh? -- ohh...."

"Do you have flaps on this airplane?"

The nose came up, white arc was reached, flaps came down to 20, and we comfortably but steeply descended through the hole to the VFR layer underneath.

Erie Approach called: "Did you get the latest weather at Erie?"

Overcast now at 2100.

"I'm gonna divert."

"But the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders are waiting at the FBO to escort you to Hooters!" I exclaimed in abject disappointment.

"Yeah..."

"OK -- Excellent decision -- where too?"

Sectionals, GPS buttons, altitude all over --

"Hang no, hang on -- what's rule 1?"

"Fly the --" BUMP

"How about we get trimmed up, stablized, and then figure out where we're going? Let's also figure out the highest obstacle in the area so we stay above it."

That done, the airplane heading southeast, we bumped along in the low-level VFR.

We landed at our alternate, looked at an airplane there, talked to a Pitt TRACON controller who invited us out anytime after the G-20, and refueled.

We saddled up and returned home, discussing the options and what to do when VFR, how hard it is to change plans mid-air, and how weather that is worse than forecast is usually a Bad Thing.

Sure, I was tempted to take over, file, and get us into Erie (I like Wegmans!!!)

But it was just as important I stifle that impulse and let him work through and then live with the consequences.
 
Good for you. Good for him. That first "I'm not going to get there today." is the hardest.
 
And good for the student for realizing his limitations instead of ignoring them and balling the whole thing up.
 
steingar said:
And good for the student for realizing his limitations instead of ignoring them and balling the whole thing up.
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+1

I'm glad he asked for help early rather than becoming a statistic.
 
Being a very low time pilot I am also skiddish with flying XC because of weather. Last weekend I had some experience with clouds and trying to find holes while descending to my destination but I still stand off when deciding whether or not to fly it when there are considerable clouds between me and my destination. I guess it never hurts to divert but I still find myself second guessing whether or not I should depart.


Time for that IR it looks like. I need to start a pyramid scheme to pay for this addiction.
 
Line 1 of the OP reinforces my notion that there is something wrong with PP training rules.
 
skyflyer8 said:
Line 1 of the OP reinforces my notion that there is something wrong with PP training rules.
Click to expand...

I was thinking kind of the same thing, only I don't think it's a problem with the rules, it's a problem with the methods. Bob whatshisname out in Buffalo has the right idea, I think - Going to different airports on nearly every lesson. Get out of the nest! I think the FAA's new focus on SBT would fit well in that sort of training plan. :yes:
 
skyflyer8 said:
Line 1 of the OP reinforces my notion that there is something wrong with PP training rules.
Click to expand...

This student had more XC hours than most CFI candidates!

His reason for wanting to learn to fly was transportation, so away we flew -- often and various.

But we should all remember that feeling when we're 2 miles up and alone.
 
Have you convinced him to get his instrument rating now? :)

Sounds like it was a good lesson for him.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My instructor had me sold on the IR from my 2nd lesson.
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At about 30 hours my CFI took us up in IMC to shoot the ILS into MDT and the return the LNS.

When we broke out at about 600' AGL I told him that was even cooler than solo.

Landing has sorta lost its luster, but an approach to mins or close is still the coolest thing since toast.

:thumbsup:
 
dmccormack said:
"But the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders are waiting at the FBO to escort you to Hooters!" I exclaimed
Click to expand...

They were? Do they go there often? What airport was that again? Sorry, will read your story later. How far is that Hooters from the field?
 
C. Kelley said:
Being a very low time pilot I am also skiddish with flying XC because of weather. Last weekend I had some experience with clouds and trying to find holes while descending to my destination but I still stand off when deciding whether or not to fly it when there are considerable clouds between me and my destination. I guess it never hurts to divert but I still find myself second guessing whether or not I should depart.
Click to expand...

I used to be exactly the same way, but since then I have flown all over the country VFR before I got my instrument rating. Someone gave me a great tip once which is that early aviators flew all over the place with nothing more than their eyeballs, a whiskey compass, and a Rand McNally map. Now think about all you have going for you such as fairly consistent forecasts, much improved instrumentation, radios that can tune in things like ASOS and FSS, better maps, GPS, and perhaps even in-cockpit weather products available on XM.

Now none of that makes you bulletproof, but it does give you a lot more information. The key is knowing how an when to use that information because if you fly far enough VFR, you will have to deal with the weather at some point. I just kept a few simple rules.

1) Never fly over a hard ceiling unless you can see to the other side.
2) Know the forecasts well, but never trust them.
3) Always be prepared to land wherever necessary and wait out the weather or divert around it.
4) Be extremely cautious of flying at night if there are any clouds whatsoever below 10,000'.
5) Minimum ceiling = MEF + 500' for flat terrain.

Yes, the first long XC is a bit nerve racking, especially when you do eventually have to deal with the weather, but once you get some good experience with your decision making skills you will feel much more confident.

Everyone on this board who has a significant amount of experience, got quite a bit of that by screwing up at some point and living through it. If you're always afraid of screwing up, you'll never spread your wings enough to gain valuable experience. At some point, you're going to think to yourself, gee I wish I hadn't done that, but as long as you have a way out, you'll live to learn from the experience and be better for it. Just keep asking yourself, "Do I have a way out if I need it?" If you have to think about it, do something different.
 
MikePapa said:
I just kept a few simple rules.

1) Never fly over a hard ceiling unless you can see to the other side.
2) Know the forecasts well, but never trust them.
3) Always be prepared to land wherever necessary and wait out the weather or divert around it.
4) Be extremely cautious of flying at night if there are any clouds whatsoever below 10,000'.
5) Minimum ceiling = MEF + 500' for flat terrain.
Click to expand...

#1 - Amen, brother! Don't want to get trapped on top without options. I'd much rather be bumping along underneath them, knowing where the ground is and what it looks like.
#2 - They don't call those folks "weather guessers" for nothing.
#3 - Yup
#4 - You can't see clouds in the dark, and it's too late when the lights on the ground suddenly disappear. I really prefer flying at night when I can see the stars.
#5 - Flat terrain? What's that? :D

Got to finish that IR this winter!
 
dmccormack said:
At about 30 hours my CFI took us up in IMC to shoot the ILS into MDT and the return the LNS.

When we broke out at about 600' AGL I told him that was even cooler than solo.

Landing has sorta lost its luster, but an approach to mins or close is still the coolest thing since toast.

:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Yeah, every time I shoot an approach (even if it's not to mins, but close) I descend out of the clouds, see the airport, and go "Wow! This really works!"

Magic, I tell you. At least it feels that way to a simple engineer like me.
 
skyflyer8 said:
Line 1 of the OP reinforces my notion that there is something wrong with PP training rules.
Click to expand...
The problem is most students don't push themselves and MAYBE the CFIs don't push their students. Early on, my CFI signed me off to fly to a local airport. I took every advantage to fly as I could and still found time for the training. I might only have flown 23 miles there and back, but it built up my confidence.
Maybe the key is the CFI.
 
I'd say the person in question at least recognized his own limitations and sought CFI help. There's something to be said for that.
 
MikePapa said:
Someone gave me a great tip once which is that early aviators flew all over the place with nothing more than their eyeballs, a whiskey compass, and a Rand McNally map.
Click to expand...

True, but an uncomfortably large number of them died in airplane crashes.
 
steingar said:
True, but an uncomfortably large number of them died in airplane crashes.
Click to expand...

Yes, but you have to take that with a bit of context. Planes were far less reliable and aviation was almost exclusively used for military and commercial applications where not flying was often not an option. With no IFR system in place and often with almost no instruments, pilots flew in literally all types of weather with practically no forecasting.

But many people managed to do it without killing themselves, and somehow they managed to routinely get to where they were going without any of the modern conveniences we take for granted.
 
I wondered when somebody would raise that point. Seemed pretty obvious here as well.

skyflyer8 said:
Line 1 of the OP reinforces my notion that there is something wrong with PP training rules.
Click to expand...
 
That excellent story makes me think that maybe there should be a mandatory (or at least recommended and "customary") review of VFR XC work during the first year, or even half-year, after getting the PP. And it would have to be with a CFI the pilot didn't know. Maybe CFIs could be enticed in some way to due it gratis, if the expense of paying for dual is what holds most PPs back from non-mandated review (and I think it is).

It could be done exactly as you did it... preferably with similar (classic, BTW) changing weather conditions. I think many new PPs would benefit from it, and even welcome it, if they were willing to admit they were not fully confident they could deal with such a situation.

Me, I had to cross that Rubicon by myself, but I did manage to keep my priorities prioritized (which was due to good foundation-intensive training), and I didn't end up diving for "sucker holes" (which was dumb luck).
 
1) Never fly over a hard ceiling unless you can see to the other side.
2) Know the forecasts well, but never trust them.
3) Always be prepared to land wherever necessary and wait out the weather or divert around it.
4) Be extremely cautious of flying at night if there are any clouds whatsoever below 10,000'.
5) Minimum ceiling = MEF + 500' for flat terrain.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the tips. Especially #1 and #4. The last XC I flew we remained below the layer as long as possible because we were not using the GPS. When ATL started vectoring us and the weather at our destination was favorable I climbed on up. It's pretty up there but I could see where it would be easy to get in trouble on top.
 
dmccormack said:
These lessons are very often not truly understood until experienced from the air.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of Sunday's trip.

TAF for arrival at KSYR (forecast): SCT025

METAR for arrival at KSYR (actual): OVC012

Easy ILS (other than them screwing up on vectors), but a VFR pilot would have had a few issues.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Reminds me of Sunday's trip.

TAF for arrival at KSYR (forecast): SCT025

METAR for arrival at KSYR (actual): OVC012

Easy ILS (other than them screwing up on vectors), but a VFR pilot would have had a few issues.
Click to expand...

I flew into KSYR CAVU last week and noticed Approach and even tower controllers all sounded like they were 12 years old...

:dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
I flew into KSYR CAVU last week and noticed Approach and even tower controllers all sounded like they were 12 years old...

:dunno:
Click to expand...

I didn't get that, but if you look at the ILS28 approach, the FAF is ZIMBI. Also note the altitude for ZIMBI is 1800. I got "5 miles from ZIMBI, maintain 3000 until established, cleared ILS28". Hey, wait a second, I'm not established yet (or anywhere close to it), and I'm 1200 ft high. Turned a little further right to intercept faster, and then put my Steinway glide ratio to work and got it in, but that was annoying.
 
MikePapa said:
But many people managed to do it without killing themselves, and somehow they managed to routinely get to where they were going without any of the modern conveniences we take for granted.
Click to expand...

95% of all the early air mail pilots died in airplane crashes.

I don't know that the rules need changing just because one dufus didn't get it. I started doing long XC's before the ink was dry on my (paper) ticket, and I'm still here. I bet I'm not the only one, either.
 
steingar said:
95% of all the early air mail pilots died in airplane crashes.

I don't know that the rules need changing just because one dufus didn't get it. I started doing long XC's before the ink was dry on my (paper) ticket, and I'm still here. I bet I'm not the only one, either.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think the rules and preparation are adequate. A long XC is nothing more than several short XC's added together. If you have the skills to do a short one, you also have the skills to do a long one. Each one has to be planned individually, and this is true regardless of how many hours you have.

Two pilots with more than 58,000 hours between the two of them managed to kill themselves against a mountain outside of Las Vegas, most likely because they didn't properly plan their flight.
 
dmccormack said:
These lessons are very often not truly understood until experienced from the air.
Click to expand...

One thing that is hard to grasp until you experience it is just how quickly a situation can deteriorate.
 
We don't think of our aircraft as fast, but 100-120 miles an hours is fast. Things happen in a hurry at such speeds.
 
VA is redline?

Sounds like some additional training is needed in regards to VA.


Plus, there's always 91.3
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I didn't get that, but if you look at the ILS28 approach, the FAF is ZIMBI. Also note the altitude for ZIMBI is 1800. I got "5 miles from ZIMBI, maintain 3000 until established, cleared ILS28". Hey, wait a second, I'm not established yet (or anywhere close to it), and I'm 1200 ft high. Turned a little further right to intercept faster, and then put my Steinway glide ratio to work and got it in, but that was annoying.
Click to expand...

Last year I wanted to take my dad and his airplane-owning, not IR pilot friend up in IMC and shoot a few approaches.

I filed and then called clearance delivery -- was told to climb to 5000. So I contact Boston Center at 4000, they have me climb to 5k, then vectors for MISSE. We were solid IMC, and I'm looking at the GPS -- we're 10 miles from the IAF at 5,000. Boston keeps me at 5k until established , now I have about 2 miles to MISSE -- welll it wasn't good. Way too high way too close. I wasn't happy, and I'm sure I posted something about that here last year.
 
Reminds me of my first (and only, to date - I don't do enough x-c flying) "we have to divert" situation. A pilot friend and I were going to take the musuem's raffle plane up to Tyler, TX for a pancake breakfast on our first away-mission after getting checked out in that plane. Forecast was calling for 2500' ceilings and 8 mi visibility. Now, I don't have an IR, the other pilot does have his IR but is not IFR current, we're not sure if this old 172 is IFR-rated, and the museum rules specify Day VFR flying only with the raffle plane. My point is, filing IFR was not an option for us.

Anyway, we were cruising at 2000', below the overcast, but it was about 8 mi visibility. As we passed by the town of Crockett, the visibility started getting worse and the ceilings looked like they were getting lower. So, when the visibility got down to about 5 miles, I, as PIC for this leg, decided to turn around and land at Crockett. We called FSS from the ground and found out that the weather wasn't looking so hot to the north, but it was okay back to the south to get back to Houston. So, we switched pilots, and my friend took us back.

It was disappointing, but in the long run it was the right decision.

Dan, I'm glad this guy had the forethought to take this trip with you. I hope that it went a long way to build his confidence.
 
dmccormack said:
Another hole seemed to open up to our right. He dove for it, building up speed way past Va.

"I kinda like our wings...."
Click to expand...

EdFred said:
VA is redline?

Sounds like some additional training is needed in regards to VA.


Plus, there's always 91.3
Click to expand...

dmccormack said:
Who said that?
Click to expand...

Exceeding VA is not necessarily an issue. Exceeding VA in a descent, or a turn, or any other number of flight attitudes, will not cause your wings to fall off - it may not even cause any damage. Someone not having a complete understanding of load factors could misinterpret your statement and then they have to be retaught everything. Law of primacy and all.

Sort of like all the bad (as in not quite correct) information of:
A turning slip in the pattern will result in a spin and kill you.
You can't exceed 30 degrees of bank in the pattern or you will die.
You can't slip a Cessna with full flaps or you will die.

Exceeding VA doesn't equate to automatic structural damage.
 
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