Hand Prop Prohibition

There is an amendment to 21.5

Amendment from October 16, 2009

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14 CFR--PART 21
View Printed Federal Register page74 FR 53385in PDF format.
Amendment(s) published October 16, 2009, in 74 FR 53385

Effective Date(s): April 14, 2010

9. Amend §21.5 by revising paragraph (a) to read as follows:

§ 21.5 Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

(a) With each airplane or rotorcraft not type certificated with an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and having no flight time before March 1, 1979, the holder of a type certificate (including amended or supplemental type certificates) or the licensee of a type certificate must make available to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

what portion of the fight manual are you as a part 91 operator required to comply with ?
 
Tom-D said:
Who believes that removal and replacement or servicing a battery doesn't need a log entry?
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R&R, yes, but "servicing" without removal? Not sure that qualifies as maintenance or preventive maintenance requiring a log entry any more than other "servicing" tasks such as adding air in the tires or fuel or oil.
 
Tom-D said:
If you have an approved flight manual that tells you how to start the engine? What then, are you required to use that procedure?
Click to expand...

No... You need that procedure available to you, but there are no prohibitions from alternate procedures unless specifically banned in the AFM.
 
Tom-D said:
There is an amendment to 21.5

Amendment from October 16, 2009

Browse Previous | Browse Next
14 CFR--PART 21
View Printed Federal Register page74 FR 53385in PDF format.
Amendment(s) published October 16, 2009, in 74 FR 53385

Effective Date(s): April 14, 2010

9. Amend §21.5 by revising paragraph (a) to read as follows:

§ 21.5 Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

(a) With each airplane or rotorcraft not type certificated with an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and having no flight time before March 1, 1979, the holder of a type certificate (including amended or supplemental type certificates) or the licensee of a type certificate must make available to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

what portion of the fight manual are you as a part 91 operator required to comply with ?
Click to expand...

The answer to the question is "Limitations", but I'm confused reconciling the question with the material quoted above it....
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed. But if the battery doesn't charge after engine start, and it's an R-item, the airplane is legally unairworthy until the battery is repaired/replaced.
Click to expand...

Even if the battery is an "O" on the equipment list it still requires a maintenance signoff before the aircraft can be flown.

An equipment list does not constitute a MEL.
 
Ron Levy said:
R&R, yes, but "servicing" without removal? Not sure that qualifies as maintenance or preventive maintenance requiring a log entry any more than other "servicing" tasks such as adding air in the tires or fuel or oil.
Click to expand...

You best read the ICAs for the battery. and what "servicing" really is.

In this case it is more than just adding fluids.
 
Henning said:
The answer to the question is "Limitations", but I'm confused reconciling the question with the material quoted above it....
Click to expand...

the modification in the wording of the rule makes the instructions that come with the STC a portion of the required flight manual, Those instructions may contain "limits" that before were not mandatory to be supplied by the STC manufacturer/Supplier/owner.

Prime examples, the duty cycle of the new light weight starters.
Plus the ICAs for the battery, are now a portion of the flight manual also, which require certain maintenance be preformed when the battery is discharged beyond a point. or at annual time.

bottom line? the battery manufacturers lawyer team just screwed you again.

Kinda nice to know info.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
Even if the battery is an "O" on the equipment list it still requires a maintenance signoff before the aircraft can be flown.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that if your battery is too low to crank the engine, and you hand-prop it, and it charges, you need a maintenance sign-off? I don't think so.
An equipment list does not constitute a MEL.
Click to expand...
Agreed. MEL's are a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but since the light planes most folks here are flying don't have them, it's not an issue with which most folks here need concern themselves (and if they do, the certificated operator for whom they probably work should have covered that in their training). They need to know how to read the Kinds of Operations and Limitations sections of their POH/AFM, and how to understand what their equipment list says and how that relates to 91.213(d).
 
Tom-D said:
the modification in the wording of the rule makes the instructions that come with the STC a portion of the required flight manual, Those instructions may contain "limits" that before were not mandatory to be supplied by the STC manufacturer/Supplier/owner.
Click to expand...
In that case, they will be in the Limitations section of the AFM Supplement that comes with the STC and must be added to the AFM (or carried in the airplane if it doesn't have an AFM).
 
Ron Levy said:
In that case, they will be in the Limitations section of the AFM Supplement that comes with the STC and must be added to the AFM (or carried in the airplane if it doesn't have an AFM).
Click to expand...

Got the paper work that came with your last battery ?

Read it, and see how it effects the OPs question about hand propping and going flying.

Some of the older installs might be able to do that, but the new ones beter read their ICAs for the battery.
 
Tom-D said:
Got the paper work that came with your last battery ?

Read it, and see how it effects the OPs question about hand propping and going flying.

Some of the older installs might be able to do that, but the new ones beter read their ICAs for the battery.
Click to expand...

Tom,

I'm the OP and my question was about airports prohibiting all hand propping:

dmccormack said:
I've recently learned that a few local airports prohibit hand propping of airplanes on airport grounds.

Anyone else heard of this? It's not in the AFD, but apparently is local rule due to insurance, whatever...
Click to expand...

Then there were a series of posts asking what would happen if the battery died.

I don't have a battery (well, except for the double-As in my handheld).
 
Ron Levy said:
Are you saying that if your battery is too low to crank the engine, and you hand-prop it, and it charges, you need a maintenance sign-off? I don't think so.
Agreed. MEL's are a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but since the light planes most folks here are flying don't have them, it's not an issue with which most folks here need concern themselves (and if they do, the certificated operator for whom they probably work should have covered that in their training). They need to know how to read the Kinds of Operations and Limitations sections of their POH/AFM, and how to understand what their equipment list says and how that relates to 91.213(d).
Click to expand...
Since I rent a plane used in Part 135, I'm an exception, as was mentioned earlier/elsewhere. I guess that makes me exceptional! :)
 
gprellwitz said:
Since I rent a plane used in Part 135, I'm an exception, as was mentioned earlier/elsewhere. I guess that makes me exceptional! :)
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Unless you're flying it under Part 135 (unlikely, since you're a PP), I don't think you can use it. See what it says on the MEL.
 
Ron Levy said:
Are you saying that if your battery is too low to crank the engine, and you hand-prop it, and it charges, you need a maintenance sign-off? I don't think so.
Click to expand...

Never said that nor implied any such thing.

Ron Levy said:
Agreed. MEL's are a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but since the light planes most folks here are flying don't have them, it's not an issue with which most folks here need concern themselves (and if they do, the certificated operator for whom they probably work should have covered that in their training). They need to know how to read the Kinds of Operations and Limitations sections of their POH/AFM, and how to understand what their equipment list says and how that relates to 91.213(d).
Click to expand...

My point here is some are trying to say that if the Equipment List item has an "O" next to it and it's inop then they need to do nothing since it's "optional". Not true. Anything installed on the airplane that is inop needs a maintenance entry before further flight.
 
dmccormack said:
Tom,

I'm the OP and my question was about airports prohibiting all hand propping:

What airports require is lawyer driven, it doesn't have to make sense.

Then there were a series of posts asking what would happen if the battery died.

Yep, and I doubt that any one who is hand propping and charging their batteries off the engine has read the new ICAs for the batteries.

I don't have a battery (well, except for the double-As in my handheld).
Click to expand...

That's fine, hand prop it safetly. and fly and have fun.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
My point here is some are trying to say that if the Equipment List item has an "O" next to it and it's inop then they need to do nothing since it's "optional". Not true. Anything installed on the airplane that is inop needs a maintenance entry before further flight.
Click to expand...
91.213(d) says otherwise. While removal of an inoperative item always requires a log entry, deactivation does not unless the deactivation "involves maintenance." See 91.213(d)(3)(ii). IOW, it's the maintenance action, not the deactivation itself, which drives the log entry requirement.
 
dmccormack said:
Tom,

I'm the OP and my question was about airports prohibiting all hand propping:



Then there were a series of posts asking what would happen if the battery died.

I don't have a battery (well, except for the double-As in my handheld).
Click to expand...
The prohibition against hand-propping will probably not stick. You have no other way of starting, so the prohibition prevents you from reasonably using the airport. That won't wash if the airport is public. (I'm not an attorney. What I say is merely guess.)

Sorry about getting off topic earlier.
 
AuntPeggy said:
The prohibition against hand-propping will probably not stick. You have no other way of starting, so the prohibition prevents you from reasonably using the airport. That won't wash if the airport is public. (I'm not an attorney. What I say is merely guess.)

Sorry about getting off topic earlier.
Click to expand...

Some airports can create a end-run prohibition against airplanes that require hand propping -- sorta like the No Ultralight NORDOs over in Iowa City....
 
Ron Levy said:
91.213(d) says otherwise. While removal of an inoperative item always requires a log entry, deactivation does not unless the deactivation "involves maintenance." See 91.213(d)(3)(ii). IOW, it's the maintenance action, not the deactivation itself, which drives the log entry requirement.
Click to expand...

AC 91.67 says differently.

7. REMOVAL OR DEACTIVATION. When
an operator elects to operate without an MEL,
any inoperative instrument or equipment must
either be removed (FAR 6 9 1.2 13(d)(3)(i)) or
deactivated (FAR 8 91.2 13(d)(3)(ii)), then
placarded.
a. Removal of any item of equipment that
affects the airworthiness of an aircraft requires
following an approved procedure. A properly
certificated maintenance person must record the
removal in accordance with FAR 6 43.9. A
person authorized by FAR 6 43.7 must make the
appropriate adjustments to the aircraft’s weight
and balance information and the equipment list,
fil’out and submit FAA Form 337, and,approve
the aircraft for return to service.
6. The operator must evaluate any proposed
deactivation to assure there is no adverse effect
that could render another system less than fully
capable of its intended function.
(1) A certificated pilot can accomplish
deactivation involving routine pilot tasks,such as
turning off a system. However, for a pilot to
deactivate an item or system,that task must
come under the definition of preventive
maintenance FAR Part 43, Subpart A .
(2) If the deactivation procedures do not
fall under preventive maintenance, properly
certificated maintenance person must accomplish
the deactivation. The maintenance person must
record the deactivation in accordance with FAR
43.9.

To perform preventative maintenance it requires a logbook entry, see FAR 43.9
 
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Ron Levy said:
So if I pull a circuit breaker, I have to log it? I don't think so.
Click to expand...

If you want to do it the correct way, the CB should be pulled and collared
to prevent someone from reactivating it. Also the item needs a placard saying "INOP" placed on it. Also a log book entry needs to be made stating why the CB is collared and why the item has an INOP placard on it.

See the accident in Central Florida on 7/10/2007 where a Cessna 310 had on a previous flight the pilot smelled electrical burning when he turned on the radar. He pulled the CB and reported the problem to maintenance upon landing. A few days later during the accident flight it was assumed the pilot pushed the CB back in and tried to use the radar. An inflight fire happened and the plane crashed.
 
Ron Levy said:
So if I pull a circuit breaker, I have to log it? I don't think so.
Click to expand...
I agree with R&W on this one...if you pull a circuit breaker PRIOR TO FLIGHT, it is considered a maintenance operation that must be properly completed (collared) and logged.

If you pull it in flight, it's obviously an in-flight action that doesn't require logging (or 91.213 consideration, for that matter). Unless or until, of course, a landing is made and further flight is intended with the c/b pulled.

I don't have a maintenance reference, but it's been the case in every MEL that I've been associated with.

David
 
hmmm,

Wonder what Bobby's got to say about this one?!!?

Glad it didn't hit my truck that's sitting down there (I think...it's been a few weeks since I've seen it).
 
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