Hand Prop Prohibition

Probably confessing an FAR violation but ...

Once the starter went out in my C170, I think the Bendix wouldn't engage. We were at Moraine air park in Ohio which is a Very Cool Airport. The mechanic assessed it and suggested that one of the Old Timer's prop me. Now I have a little exposure in a Champ and have propped it a few times (another story) but the big chrome prop on the 170 was a little intimidating.

I started to decline and the mechanic put his arm around me and said "just do exactly as he says..."

The Old Timer seemed a little put out and gave me the standard 'guy in front is in charge' scolding. We pulled it thru and then he called Brakes Set, Throttle Cracked" so I yelled it all back with "Switches OFF" -- after all he didn't say to set them on. He did crack me a smile then as I guess he at least acknowledged I could follow simple instructions. It fired right up and we flew home to I19 and got the starter fixed.

One thing. The fellow didn't pull from the edges of the prop, he pulled from near the spinner. Obviously the recommended method is to make sure you don't curl the first fingerjoint over the blade and pull from the outside of the arc ...
 
twdeckard said:
One thing. The fellow didn't pull from the edges of the prop, he pulled from near the spinner. Obviously the recommended method is to make sure you don't curl the first fingerjoint over the blade and pull from the outside of the arc ...
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Yep -- and it doesn't hurt to wear gloves. I have a pair of NOMEX tank crewman gloves I wear. Don't think it offers much protection but puts me in "this is dangerous" mode. Wearing the gloves also reminds me that I can't take them off until all chocks/ tie downs are removed and I'm in the cockpit.

The airplane I used for my IFR PT has a run-down battery -- had to have it hand propped to get down to EKN for the test. After the oral, got all settled into the airplane, yelled "CLEAR!", turned the switch -- nothing. On the third try it had just enough to start.

I hand prop solo 95% of the time -- I chock both wheels, cock the tailwheel sideways, and tie down the tail with some stout braided nylon rope (tied to a hanger door brace or a US Army issue GP Medium tent stake).

I say out loud, "Mags OFF, Throttle IDLE" before pulling through, then "Mags HOT, Throttle Cracked" before startup.

That Video at Farmer's Pride is a good one -- I like the long line chocks he's got (Gotta do that too). But the stake for the tie down looks a bit flimsy unless it's 3' long (I always stake at an angle away from the potential pulling force).

That video also made me even more eager for spring! Green grass, shirtsleeve weather --it seems like forever!!

To Ron's question about which airports have the prohibition -- the local flying scene is pretty small, so I'll refrain from posting the ID. But, it's a local Class D.
 
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Tom-D said:
You are required to maintain your aircraft IAW 91.405 (a)

Each owner or operator of an aircraft—
(a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this part and shall between required inspections, except as provided in paragraph(c) of this section, have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of this chapter;

The FAA airworthiness inspector would hang you with 91.405 (a)

plus a violation of 91,13 for a dangerous action with out cause.

My advice? get a jump start. and excite the battery before you fly.
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Better yet get the battery charged at least to half capacity, that only takes a half hour or so.
 
On more then one occasion I've seen an aircraft's battery that was too dead to start the engine. After a hand prop it charged up and was good to go at the next airport. Call that what you want- but it's very possible that the hand prop will get you going and fully functional.

As far as the legality? Bah... The legality of something that is commonly done with very low regulatory risk isn't something I would worry about. Like anything - if they want to bust you - they'll find something.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
From the Preamble:

The MMEL is intended to permit operations with inoperative items
of equipment for the minimum period of time necessary until
repairs can be accomplished. It is important that repairs be
accomplished at the earliest opportunity in order to return the
aircraft to its design level of safety and reliability.
Inoperative equipment in all cases must be repaired, or inspected
and deferred, by qualified maintenance personnel at the next
required inspection [Section 91.165(c), NEW Section 91.405(c)].
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Yup...you're correct...I was thinking only of the "A, B, C, D" designations, which most people don't realize don't apply to a strictly Part 91 op.
 
rottydaddy said:
And I don't lift one leg, at least not with a 65-hp engine, LOL. I see people doing the leg-swinging bit when propping little putt-putt engines, and it puzzles me. If you don't have the strength to swing the prop on a Champ without lifting your leg, you should get someone else to do it, IMHO. Two feet on the ground= more stable footing.
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The reason you're supposed to swing your foot isn't to provide more "swing" but rather to generate momentum in your body away from the prop. You can certainly start and remain out of the prop arc without this but if the plane ever jumps forward when it starts it helps to have a head start on getting out of the way.
 
gismo said:
The reason you're supposed to swing your foot isn't to provide more "swing" but rather to generate momentum in your body away from the prop. You can certainly start and remain out of the prop arc without this but if the plane ever jumps forward when it starts it helps to have a head start on getting out of the way.
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Exactly --65 hp is about 64.99 hp more than what's needed to chop your arm off.
 
wanttaja said:
Uhhh, not with my airplane. Low wing, wire bracing. If the plane lunges forward, you've got nowhere to go. The mag switches for both Fly Babies I've flown are on the left side of the cockpit, the opposite side from where you'd be standing to hand prop from behind (and a long reach around the windshield into the cockpit).

The biggest mistake people make is hand propping airplanes without securing them. Over the years, I've only heard about one or two guys that got hit by the prop while trying to swing it, but I've heard story after story about folks who didn't have the plane tied down and it ran away from them when the throttle was set too high.
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I carry a rope with me in the Porterfield so I can tie the tail to some convenient object before starting. I don't need a release because once I get the plane started I can lock the throttle closed and then there's no danger of it revving up and even if it did, it wouldn't get me.
 
SteveR said:
But once the engine is running (via handprop), the starter would not be engaged, and so the voltage would be much higher than 9v, right? So it would provide move than enough voltage to excite the alternator and begin charging the battery. Particularly on a cold day, a battery might be in decent condition, but not produce enough amps to turn the engine over. That doesn't necessarily mean its capacity has been compromised.
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Unless you've left the master on and the battery is completely dead, it's extremely likely that you can get the alternator going once the engine is running. But like someone else said, it's easy to determine whether or not the alternator comes online once the engine is started by checking the ammeter. It's less obvious if the master contactor hasn't been energized, you really have to know the aircraft's electrical system for that, and even then it's possible that if a diode is provided to power the master from the buss it could be defective.

OTOH, it's not always the alternator that's the problem when it won't energize, it can be that the regulator won't energize the field with the available voltage when the bus voltage is below 8 or 9 volts. Also although you won't have the starter load pulling the battery voltage down, you will have the loads of the master contactor, electrically powered gauges and whatever other loads come on with the master in addition to the alternator field itself. Typically those will add up to at least a few amps.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
While it may seem you could use an Equipment List in the place of an MEL, you simply can't. There are differences. A MEL prescribes at what time the deferred equipment must be repaired and signed off. An MEL also has a Preamble which goes into further detail of deferrals, and another part of the MEL is the "Special Procedures" which must be followed in the event of certain deferred items.

Also bear in mind that it requires a mechanic to defer an item and make the appropriate log entries. Take the example of an inop starter or battery. If the pilot wants to proceed he needs to have a mechanic look at it and make a log entry for the aircraft to proceed. I seriously doubt you will find an A&P willing to do that for a battery or starter.



<SNIP>
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Thanks much for the clarification
 
If you have no other options, propping is a viable option. As far as getting the master solenoid closed, Tom is quite correct in that it typically gets its juice from the battery side. I would not operate the electrical system without the battery on line. If the battery was too dead to close the master and I was going to do this, I would set up to jump the solenoid directly from the alternator to get the battery on line. That may mean I'm initially going to start it with the cowl off and once I got the battery online I'd let it charge with everything else (except the beacon) tuned off for 10 minutes at 1200 RPM.

If I have the option of getting a GPU jump or charge, I'll take it.
 
Henning said:
If I have the option of getting a GPU jump or charge, I'll take it.
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You always do. unless the spear chucking head hunters are bearing down.
 
Tom-D said:
You always do. unless the spear chucking head hunters are bearing down.
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Thing is, as I fly around, I notice more and more small airports, especially ones that have the cheap self serve fuel, have very limited and even no transient services. No mechanic or shop on the field. I don't prop up out of convenience, I do it out of necessity.
 
Henning said:
Thing is, as I fly around, I notice more and more small airports, especially ones that have the cheap self serve fuel, have very limited and even no transient services. No mechanic or shop on the field. I don't prop up out of convenience, I do it out of necessity.
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Got cell phone? get road service.
 
dmccormack said:
Not within a day or two in many airfields around here -- several A&P/IAs around here have retired/died/been busted or just plain hounded out by the FAA...:frown3:
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Road service. As in Triple A. I carry around one of these:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/plugnjump.php

and most of the time a set of cables. They probably could help you out.

HOWEVER, I don' know if road service could help you out if you have a 24 volt system.
 
gismo said:
I carry a rope with me in the Porterfield so I can tie the tail to some convenient object before starting. I don't need a release because once I get the plane started I can lock the throttle closed and then there's no danger of it revving up and even if it did, it wouldn't get me.
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Do you carry a stake as well? I've found I've been far from tie down objects at some fields.

Someone I knew had to hand prop on a concrete pad -- closest solid object was at least 50' away. Choked left side wheel, cocked the tailwheel, and propped and made a beeline outside the strut holding on as this guy scooted into the cockpit with the prop idling the airplane was still crawling forward...

:eek:

The guy I know will stop closer to solid objects next time. :yesnod:
 
dmccormack said:
D
Someone I knew had to hand prop on a concrete pad -- closest solid object was at least 50' away. Choked left side wheel, cocked the tailwheel, and propped and made a beeline outside the strut holding on as this guy scooted into the cockpit with the prop idling the airplane was still crawling forward...
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That's dumb the chocks will stop any aircraft that is started at idle.


and that is where the throttle should be.
 
Call me crazy, many do! I have been on the spot and prop started many planes, even a few Malibus. The Mirage would be more complicated with the shower of sparks system and no impulse coupling (it can be done). We had a P-navajo pilot that prop started his one night after finding his starter out. Someone inside kept the starter button down to energize the shower of sparks system while he swung the prop.

I've gotten a bit to old and my back isn't what it used to be causing me to be a bit reserved now.

Kevin
 
dmccormack said:
Do you carry a stake as well? I've found I've been far from tie down objects at some fields.

Someone I knew had to hand prop on a concrete pad -- closest solid object was at least 50' away. Choked left side wheel, cocked the tailwheel, and propped and made a beeline outside the strut holding on as this guy scooted into the cockpit with the prop idling the airplane was still crawling forward...

:eek:

The guy I know will stop closer to solid objects next time. :yesnod:
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My airplane is so light (800 lbs empty, 878 lbs with full fuel) that I can easily move it by hand to where there's something to tie to. Most ramps have tiedown rings of some sort that will work but I've also used fences, lamp poles, and even a fuel pump.
 
gismo said:
My airplane is so light (800 lbs empty, 878 lbs with full fuel) that I can easily move it by hand to where there's something to tie to. Most ramps have tiedown rings of some sort that will work but I've also used fences, lamp poles, and even a fuel pump.
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Yeah, that works with light airplanes -- except when there are big snow mounds blocking the solid stuff.
 
Tom-D said:
If that is true go in the back of your service truck and get you jumper cables out.
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Never seen a 24v tow truck, though since a lot of them have 2 batteries, I could set up for it. I'm fine with flicking the prop though.
 
FRG sucks....

I was IFR to W91 AA5. 4.5 hrs fuel 3.5 hr trip. Dam bastards kept me at the hold short for 40 min every time. Turned off the plane asap at the hold short line. Starter froze up (Dec). As soon as I get TO Clearance, I had to jump out & hand prop because the starter had frozen. Tower said he never seen that done before :)

Visiting a friend. The mighty 182 wouldn't start at 18F. finally must have flooded it & killed the battery in one fell swoope. Hand proped the sexy 3 blade prop... carb backfired.... engine went on fire just long enought to warm her up for the next.. successful start.. flew home , no problems...

I have hand propped every plane I have owned & 1/2 the rentals...

I stilll have all me digits :)
 
Eamon said:
FRG sucks....

I was IFR to W91 AA5. 4.5 hrs fuel 3.5 hr trip. Dam bastards kept me at the hold short for 40 min every time. Turned off the plane asap at the hold short line. Starter froze up (Dec). As soon as I get TO Clearance, I had to jump out & hand prop because the starter had frozen. Tower said he never seen that done before :)

Visiting a friend. The mighty 182 wouldn't start at 18F. finally must have flooded it & killed the battery in one fell swoope. Hand proped the sexy 3 blade prop... carb backfired.... engine went on fire just long enought to warm her up for the next.. successful start.. flew home , no problems...

I have hand propped every plane I have owned & 1/2 the rentals...

I still have all me digits :)
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"E" your 182 has a POH, the type certificate says that aircraft will be operated IAW the Placards that POH is a portion of the Placards.

where does it tell you to hand prop the aircraft.?
 
Tom-D said:
"E" your 182 has a POH, the type certificate says that aircraft will be operated IAW the Placards that POH is a portion of the Placards.

where does it tell you to hand prop the aircraft.?
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Hey TOM :) Where does it say not to is the better
question.

I am in VA. When I
get home, I will quest for guidance..............


XOXOX to You & Barb Happy New Year.
 
Eamon said:
Hey TOM :) Where does it say not to is the better
question.

But it does give you instructions to start,

XOXOX to You & Barb Happy New Year.
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Thanks, Same to you.

If the FAA wanted to they could make a violation stick on
91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.

(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when un-airworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.
 
Tom-D said:
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when un-airworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.
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But the airplane isn't "in-flight"...?
 
The Scout I am partners in doesn't fly nearly as much as it should, and occasionly the battery tender is forgotton to be put on it. After it has been sitting for a several weeks the battery discharges to point it will not turn the engine over. On the other hand it will start on the 1st pull every time. Much simpler and faster and possibly safer than messing with jumper cables. And after it runs for 5 minutes it has charged the battery enough that it will start every time until it sits for several more weeks.

Brian
 
brcase said:
The Scout I am partners in doesn't fly nearly as much as it should, and occasionly the battery tender is forgotton to be put on it. After it has been sitting for a several weeks the battery discharges to point it will not turn the engine over. On the other hand it will start on the 1st pull every time. Much simpler and faster and possibly safer than messing with jumper cables. And after it runs for 5 minutes it has charged the battery enough that it will start every time until it sits for several more weeks.

Brian
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So as the IA doing the annual I should look for a return to service entry before every start.

or did you forget 43.9

43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
top

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:
 
brcase said:
The Scout I am partners in doesn't fly nearly as much as it should, and occasionly the battery tender is forgotton to be put on it. After it has been sitting for a several weeks the battery discharges to point it will not turn the engine over. On the other hand it will start on the 1st pull every time. Much simpler and faster and possibly safer than messing with jumper cables. And after it runs for 5 minutes it has charged the battery enough that it will start every time until it sits for several more weeks.

Brian
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Tom-D said:
So as the IA doing the annual I should look for a return to service entry before every start.

or did you forget 43.9

43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
top

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:
Click to expand...

I don't think hand propping an airplane because the battery is low would require a maintenance entry. You could if you felt it warranted it, but really?
 
jesse said:
On more then one occasion I've seen an aircraft's battery that was too dead to start the engine. After a hand prop it charged up and was good to go at the next airport. Call that what you want- but it's very possible that the hand prop will get you going and fully functional.

As far as the legality? Bah... The legality of something that is commonly done with very low regulatory risk isn't something I would worry about. Like anything - if they want to bust you - they'll find something.
Click to expand...

One of the great things about these small airports where there are no longer mechanics is that the people will show up to help. A guy who is an auto mechanic may drop by. An EAA member who is building his own plane may poke his head under the cowl. And the fire department may offer to let you charge up your battery on their trickle charge.

When all that fails and hand-propping does not...
 
Tom-D said:
So as the IA doing the annual I should look for a return to service entry before every start.

or did you forget 43.9

43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
top

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:
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I am confused. Is hooking up a trickle charger considered logable preventative maintenance? Or is it the hand propping? Not sure which.
 
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