hand-holding during the buying process

I have never heard someone say " I have a $175k budget for a house" and have other people tell them they can't because they would need insurance and the fridge might quit working. And they would have a power bill. . .

But an airplane budget, for some reason means you don't have a clue how much you are going to spend and you shouldn't purchase.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I have never heard someone say " I have a $175k budget for a house" and have other people tell them they can't because they would need insurance and the fridge might quit working. And they would have a power bill. . .

But an airplane budget, for some reason means you don't have a clue how much you are going to spend and you shouldn't purchase.
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When the budget is such that it can only afford the purchase of a bare minimums plane OR training in it such that one would need to finance the purchase of the plane in order to have the reserves to train, then one is putting one's self in a position of great risk of not being able to complete the stated objective. Most planes in the budgeted price range are not in what anyone would consider 'premium condition' in fact they hover at the opposite end of the scale. Most likely this craft is going to require repairs sooner rather than later. Not only will these repairs eat into (or exceed) the reserves for the training, they will also eat into the time allotted for the training all the while the debt still needs to be serviced.

Given his stated monetary and time budget, purchasing a plane at this point would not serve in his best interest. Once he has a further employment contract this may change the dynamic of the situation, but at this point with a fixed budget at the level given, I can't in good conscience advise him to buy a plane, it does not make sense given the stated objectives.
 
Not specific to this thread, but I have seen a pattern of people naysaying any budget, $30k or $300k, doesn't seem to matter, somebody will post that the budget doesn't work.


Never seen it on cars, boats, houses, RVs, etc.

Strange dynamic.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Not specific to this thread, but I have seen a pattern of people naysaying any budget, $30k or $300k, doesn't seem to matter, somebody will post that the budget doesn't work.


Never seen it on cars, boats, houses, RVs, etc.

Strange dynamic.
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True, but if you look at my history of posts, you'll see that I am an advocate of buying your plane to train in, in this particular case though having discussed it with the OP privately, this is one of those situations where it just doesn't pan out.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
1. Florida is not the best flying weather in winter, Kansas is. Cold stable air is best to fly in. Clear days about 25 days a month. Sometimes 30 days a month. The days it is not clear usually has high ceilings so you fly anyway.

2. You can listen to the nay sayers or you can listen to someone who did exactly as you planned.

One can choose to look at all the pitfalls and things that might happen to disrupt your plan or one can look at the goal. I'd say you have about 80-90% chance of success or better if you follow your original plan.

I bought a 1966 Cherokee which today would sell fro $14.6k, with a fresh annual inspection and flew almost every day for about 40 days and got my license in it at a bit more than 50 hrs total time.

If I were to do it today here are costs doing it at my FBO today:

If on tie down: Free rent for tie downs
If in Hangar: $140 per month rent.

Mogas is available here so todays price is $3.07 per gallon at 8 gph works out to $24.50 per hour fuel.

Over 8 years and 880 hours on my Cherokee the annual inspections and maintenance, oil changes everything totaled $10 per hour or about $8800 for 880 hours and 8 years annuals.

Insurance on a $15k plane for a no time pilot is about $430 per year maybe less now.

So 50 hrs at 8 gph (that is high as you will burn a bit less) =400 gallons

No taxes property nor sales tax in Kansas on avation:

Fuel for 50 hrs $1225 mogas
Insurance 1st year $430
Tie down free
First year maintenance $800-1000 including annual inspection (which you might get the annual paid for by seller)
Written test $75
Flight test $200
CFI about 30 hours from $12-25 per hour paid direct


So about $3500.

After you are done with your PPL you can work on your IR but in any case you can move the airplane to where ever in the country has the driest wx and leave the plane on tie down for a bit of nothing or leave it in a hangar in the midwest for $140 per month. You can keep it in dry storage for the year you are gone.

I had a few mechanic difficulties during my first month of training, tire, battery or what have you but most of the big stuff gets caught by the annual inspection so no reason to expect the plane to be down for weeks on end.

A few other ideas are that you might be able to do a dry lease on a Trainer for 2 months. That way you juts pay xxx for leasing the plane. get insurance and away you go. Then you do not have to store it while you are away.

There is no way in hell I would go to a flight school and get ripped off $120 per hour to rent an aircraft and pay another $45-65 per hour for a flight instructor.....it is absolutely not necessary. That is for stupid kids with wet dreams about becoming jetjocks bus drivers.
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I don't doubt that Tony has access to free tie downs, $3 gas, and $12/hr instructors, and spends next to nothing for maintenance, but his estimates are no where near typical, particularly for a new owner in a new to him airplane. Plan accordingly.

I'm all for aircraft ownership, but if timing is more of a consideration than cost, look into a flight school with multiple airplanes. A mechanical issue could easily ground you for multiple weeks and ruin your schedule.

Have fun.
 
Ron Levy said:
Got any examples within a $30K budget?
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There's a very nice straight tail 172 here that will be able to be had in the $30k range.
Started out at about $18k, but it now has new interrior, and paintjob is comming next.
Has a decent IFR panel, just perfect for training, and a low to mid time O-300.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm glad you are willing to spend several thousand dollars of your own time and money to help a highly-paid overseas contractor, but please don't tell me I'm not supporting our troops if I don't.
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How would you spend several thousand dollars?

Highly paid is a big assumption isn't it ?

I didn't mention any names but must have struck a nerve with you. It wouldn't take anything but your time to man up and do this.
 
If you are in that big of a time crunch I wouldn't recommend buying a plane to train in. With all your eggs in that one basket you are one breakdown away from failure. I'd find a good 141 with several planes you can hop between if needed.
 
If you don't have time to look at the plane, might be a good idea to wait until you have the time.

I would hope someone in the military doesn't have soo much money they can waste it buying AIRCRAFT sight unseen, though my last tax bill may have begged to differ.
 
Ron Levy said:
What are you going to do with the plane when you go back out of the country after those 30-45 days?

BTW, if you're looking at Cessna 150's, I hope neither you nor your instructor are large -- not enough useful load to carry more than about two hours of gas if you are. And finding a C-172 for $30K that you'd really want to use for instrument training may be harder than you think.

Put those two issues together, and maybe you want to rethink whether buying a plane just to use for that training is a better idea than going somewhere that has planes and instructors. GATTS is one of those, although I'm not sure about mid-winter weather in that part of the country. PIC has a deal with an FBO in South Florida where you could have use of their plane with a PIC instructor for the training period, and the flying weather should be very good that time of year. Call Donn at 800-I-FLY-IFR for more on that option.
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I sold an extremely well maintained solid /G Cherokee 150 (700SMOH) for $18,500. $30,000 ought to get a decent 172 for IFR training. I'd still be looking or a Cherokee on that budget though...more bang for your buck.
 
Ron Levy said:
I didn't get that, and it definitely changes things, including making buying a plane a non-starter -- can't get enough flight hours on $15K to complete PP and IR under Part 61. Even under a combined PP/IR syllabus, I'm not sure it's possible once you add in all the other costs including test fees, instructor fees, etc.

In a Part 141 program, perhaps. But that limits him to 141 schools.

All in all, I'm not seeing zero-to-PP/IR in 30-45 days on $15K. Redbird Skyport advertises that for $20K and two months, and that's typical.
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I can set him up with a guy in MT thatl will take him from zero to IR for less than $10,000 assuming he's average.
 
bartmc said:
I can set him up with a guy in MT thatl will take him from zero to IR for less than $10,000 assuming he's average.
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Does that include aircraft rental? Redbird looks very solid. I like their training setup from what I've been able to read about it. That would go very well with the way I learn. But if I went to Redbird, I would only be going for PPL.
 
ChitDisturber said:
If you don't have time to look at the plane, might be a good idea to wait until you have the time.

I would hope someone in the military doesn't have soo much money they can waste it buying AIRCRAFT sight unseen, though my last tax bill may have begged to differ.
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The concept of a buyers agent seems to work for many people for various reasons/situations.

On another note, I find it strange that you would hope that someone in the military wouldn't have enough money to do something. I'm not in the military, but if I were I would probably be offended that you either wished to hold them to a low income level or that you hoped they wouldn't be able to save/invest/budget effectively.
 
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