GTX-345R Flight ID failure

[azure]

I picked up my plane today after having a GTX-345R installed. Avionics shop claimed to have ground tested the installation and everything checked out good. I pulled a PAPR on my flight home and was shocked to see that the Flight ID check was 100% fail. Everything else looked good. I was puzzled by how this could be and wondered if maybe the ADS-B coverage in that part of Vermont was not adequate (mostly just east of the main spine of the Green Mountains, at about 4200 MSL). But then I noticed the Flight ID reported on the Operation Summary was my squawk code, in this case 1200. The PAPR User Guide says that the Flight ID is supposed to be set to the aircraft's tail number "as used by ATC".

The shop that installed my unit is very reputable and I've never had any reason before to question their competence. Am I misunderstanding this report? Does this not mean that the shop set the Flight ID field incorrectly?

 

[bnt83]

I don’t think it’s configured correctly and likely will be a trip back to a dealer rather than DIY fix. Email them the report and see what they say?

 

[azure]

I don’t think it’s configured correctly and likely will be a trip back to a dealer rather than DIY fix. Email them the report and see what they say?

Yes, that's what I figured, the operator can't configure the FID. Already emailed them, no reply so far. I will post updates when I have them.

These folks have done dozens of ADS-B installs. This appears to be an epic fail... hard to understand how it could have happened.

Would it be a bad idea to fly it in the meantime? Likely to draw FAA attention? Only in rule airspace or everywhere?

 

[GeorgeC]

My club received a letter when the FID was misconfigured. Check the installation manual?

 

[azure]

My club received a letter when the FID was misconfigured. Check the installation manual?

According to the manual, configuration is done using the GTX-3X5 Installation Tool. You have to download that from a Garmin site called the Dealer Resource Center. Doesn't sound like something I should (or even could) be messing with.

Sounds like my plane should probably lay low until the shop can squeeze me back in.

Is this kind of misconfiguration actually common? How can a dealer not catch something like this in their post-installation testing?

 

[Doug Reid]

If I recall, you will get 100 fail , ID mismatch, if you did not file a flight plan for the PAPR test flight. Look on the notes on the last page of the report. That information should be on your report.

This is a normal fail.

If the unit was not configured correctly, the title page would not show your n number and hex code, which I assume was correct. Go to FAA.gov, look up your n number to verify the hex code if you feel it is necessary

If that is what you are talking about...you are good to go...

 

[azure]

If I recall, you will get 100 fail , ID mismatch, if you did not file a flight plan for the PAPR test flight. Look on the notes on the last page of the report. That information should be on your report.

If that is what you are talking about...you are good to go...

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. The note refers to the FP ID Mismatch field. In my case, the Flight ID and Partial fields under "Other Checks" are 100% fail and flagged in red.

Besides, the front page says the Flight ID was 1200. I believe that's clearly wrong and contrary to the spec, which says it should be set to the N-number.

 

[Doug Reid]

OK...I misunderstood your problem. I recently signed off a GTX345 and the owner got excited when he saw FPID failed. You can go into your 345 and look at the configuration pages without using the install tool. Look on pages 107-108 of the install manual.

You should see something like this on your PAPR.

 

[azure]

View attachment 81156 OK...I misunderstood your problem. I recently signed off a GTX345 and the owner got excited when he saw FPID failed. You can go into your 345 and look at the configuration pages without using the install tool. Look on pages 107-108 of the install manual.

Do you have a link to the installation manual? The only manual I could find is a "maintenance" manual.

FYI, it's not a straight 345, it's a 345R. Unless it can be accessed through my CNX-80, I don't see any way to look at the configuration.

You should see something like this on your PAPR.

This is what I see:

 

[Doug Reid]

I will look up the link and send it to you. There is a method to view the configuration pages by holding down buttons during startup. All this is in the install manual.

You can google gtx345 and see a couple pdf files online of the install manual. Hopefully, somebody goofed when they entered your tail number or hex code...good luck.

 

[azure]

If I recall, you will get 100 fail , ID mismatch, if you did not file a flight plan for the PAPR test flight. Look on the notes on the last page of the report. That information should be on your report.

This is a normal fail.

If the unit was not configured correctly, the title page would not show your n number and hex code, which I assume was correct. Go to FAA.gov, look up your n number to verify the hex code if you feel it is necessary

If that is what you are talking about...you are good to go...

I just saw your edited post... the N number and Broadcast ICAO code (I assume that's the same thing as the Mode S hex code) are correct on the title page. The flight id is not.

 

[Doug Reid]

Your Flight ID is supposed to show your N number on the screen of your transponder.

 

[azure]

As I said, the transponder has no display, no screen. It's not a panel mount 345, it's a 345R, remote version, in the tailcone.

 

[azure]

You can google gtx345 and see a couple pdf files online of the install manual. Hopefully, somebody goofed when they entered your tail number or hex code...good luck.

Yes. But as far as I can tell, the remote mount version install manual isn't available online.

And yes, I agree... the shop goofed when entering the flight id. How they could have not caught it in their testing, is what bothers me.

 

[Doug Reid]

Ok....You have a remote 345. Let me look.

Looks like the 345R maintenance manual contains all the info you need.

This manual covers severals several other units as well.

I am not familiar with how to view the transponder data on your gps ....I personally would hook up to the 345 install tool and see that the configuration data was correct.

 

[azure]

Ok....You have a remote 345. Let me look.

Looks like the 345R maintenance manual contains all the info you need.

This manual covers severals several other units as well.

I am not familiar with how to view the transponder data on your gps ....I personally would hook up to the 345 install tool and see that the configuration data was correct.

Right, but you're apparently an avionics tech. The link in the manual is to a dealer-specific site and requires a login. The install manual also says that you need to connect the unit to a computer to use the tool... and there is no way I'm going to disconnect the unit now. As far as I'm concerned, this is a job for the avionics shop... hopefully they will fix it at no charge since it was their error. If I muck things up they will likely tell me to pound sand, and rightly so.

The shop also left my charger hookup disconnected from my battery. If I can get it reconnected this afternoon I may play around with the CNX-80 on the ground and see if I can access the transponder or at least get some system info from it. But I don't want to draw that much power from the battery without a way to recharge it.

 

[Doug Reid]

Sort of...A&P/IA with background in avionics. We are not a full time shop.

Do you know someone with a Stratux and an ipad ? They will show your squawk code, altitude, hex code and n number...you can test your transponder on the ground in your hangar. I would think if there is a problem...it would show up.

I’m sorry I didn’t get the “remote” suffix when I read your post.

Good luck.

 

[azure]

Thanks. No, no one I know has a Stratux. There might be someone around though, I'll ask.

The local FBO owner told me today that he watched my return flight yesterday on Radar 24, and saw my flight id shown as 1200 there too. He said he'd never seen that before.

 

[GeorgeC]

Sounds like the installer mixed up the default squawk (what you get when you press the vfr button) with the flight id.

 

[azure]

Sounds like the installer mixed up the default squawk (what you get when you press the vfr button) with the flight id.

Yes it does, and that's what bothers me. The pictures in the manual of the display on the installation tool look like that should be hard to do. One possibility is that it defaults to 1200 if not set to anything, and they didn't set it for some reason.

Wild speculation: they didn't set it because they ASSumed that it could be set by the user via the CNX-80. Flight ID is supposed to be the call sign used in communication with ATC, which might be specific to a given flight (e.g. Compassion, or CAP). For some models, I believe the flight id can be set on the unit. But I checked today, and at least in normal usage, there is no access to the transponder except via the CNX-80's transponder menu, and that only has specific, fixed fields that the user can edit, like the squawk code and ON/STDBY/ALT/AUTO, basically the controls for an ordinary transponder.

While I was playing with the panel today inside the hangar, the CNX-80 displayed an error message from the GTX-345R, telling me that "ADS-B is not transmitting GPS position". Not surprising, since inside like that, there were no satellites visible. But at least it gives me some reassurance that they are talking to each other.

 

[azure]

I just checked the CNX-80 Pilot's Guide, and with certain installations (specifically GTX-33 and GTX-330), there IS supposed to be an operator-accessible and editable Flight ID field. So either the GTX-345R is too new and the CNX-80 doesn't properly recognize it, or I just plain missed it yesterday. Going out this afternoon to try again, and even do another validation flight if I can enter the correct flight id.

 

[James331]

Yes, that's what I figured, the operator can't configure the FID. Already emailed them, no reply so far. I will post updates when I have them.

These folks have done dozens of ADS-B installs. This appears to be an epic fail... hard to understand how it could have happened.

Would it be a bad idea to fly it in the meantime? Likely to draw FAA attention? Only in rule airspace or everywhere?

Just inop it, pull the breaker and deal with airspace accordingly

 

[azure]

Just inop it, pull the breaker and deal with airspace accordingly

But you raise an important point: they didn't put in a dedicated breaker for the 345R, and I need to ask them why they didn't.

 

[Doug Reid]

Your Flight ID is your N number...you do not want to change your Flight ID.

 

[azure]

Your Flight ID is your N number...you do not want to change your Flight ID.

Apparently it isn't... right? The PAPR said the Flight ID was set to 1200.

Of course I wouldn't change it if it was correctly set...

 

[John Collins]

Because the GTX345R does not have a panel, you need a dealer software tool and it connects via a USB pigtail on the unit. So you are going to need to bring it to the avionics shop. If the shop made this error, they probably made others. If you can email me the report, I can review and let you know if they setup the ADS-B In bits correctly and the other parameters. It is a setting that defaults the call sign to your N number or allows you to enter a call sign that is not your N number. If you need to use a call sign for a mercy flight or use a call sign different than your N number, this needs to be setup at the installation configuration. A remote unit is more difficult to make changes because it does not have its own panel. You can PM me for my email.

 

[azure]

Because the GTX345R does not have a panel, you need a dealer software tool and it connects via a USB pigtail on the unit. So you are going to need to bring it to the avionics shop. If the shop made this error, they probably made others. If you can email me the report, I can review and let you know if they setup the ADS-B In bits correctly and the other parameters. It is a setting that defaults the call sign to your N number or allows you to enter a call sign that is not your N number. If you need to use a call sign for a mercy flight or use a call sign different than your N number, this needs to be setup at the installation configuration. A remote unit is more difficult to make changes because it does not have its own panel. You can PM me for my email.

It sounds like you're saying that the CNX-80 Flight ID field is not available with the GTX-345 (in XPDR mode), or else can't be used to correct the Flight ID setting on the GTX-345. Is that correct?

I did not see it yesterday when I was going through the CNX-80 settings, but I could have missed it. The Pilot's Guide does not have a picture of the Flight ID soft key so I'm not sure where it would be.

In any case, the avionics shop owner just texted me that he's going to be available this afternoon, so I will take it to him.

I already sent him the PAPR, so he knows what the score is, but thanks anyway.

 

[James331]

But you raise an important point: they didn't put in a dedicated breaker for the 345R, and I need to ask them why they didn't.

I don’t think I’ve seen a plane that didn’t have transponder breakers, for many reasons, one being able to inop funky transponders

 

[John Collins]

I already sent him the PAPR, so he knows what the score is, but thanks anyway.

I have worked too many cases to be sure that the avionics shop knows the score. There are over 8000 bad installs as of the beginning of this month still needing attention according to the FAA ADS-B website. If the ADS-B bits are not set properly, you won't get TISB. Shops just don't understand this. I can see it in the PAPR report. Do you want or need to have the option of using a call sign other than your N number? If so, this is an installation issue and the installer should have discussed this with you. No CB, not so good.

 

[azure]

I have worked too many cases to be sure that the avionics shop knows the score. There are over 8000 bad installs as of the beginning of this month still needing attention according to the FAA ADS-B website. If the ADS-B bits are not set properly, you won't get TISB. Shops just don't understand this. I can see it in the PAPR report. Do you want or need to have the option of using a call sign other than your N number? If so, this is an installation issue and the installer should have discussed this with you. No CB, not so good.

I think I was mistaken about the transponder breaker - most likely since it is on the same circuit as the SL-70R that they pulled, it is on the XPDR 1 breaker. I need to ask them about that. Today was rushed - and there was another issue, unrelated to avionics - so I forgot to ask them about this.

I seem to be getting TIS-B just fine.

And I confirmed that I can set the GTX-345R flight id through the XPDR mode on the CNX-80. I set it before taking off today and the shop and I both confirmed that the unit retains the flight id. After getting home, I also pulled another PAPR and it shows the flight id set correctly.

The technician at the shop admitted that he might have accidentally set the flight id when he thought he was setting the squawk code to 1200. He was certainly NOT assuming that I would set it myself, and he may not have known that my CNX-80 has that capability. (It's unlikely that I will ever have the need to set it to anything else, but it's nice to know that the capability exists with the CNX-80.)

But if you're offering to look at my PAPR and confirm everything, sure, I would appreciate that if it's not too much trouble.

Thanks!

 

[bnt83]

This thread Is an example of why I turned off the crew editable flight ID on both family ships, keeps dad from getting something goofed up.

 

[azure]

This thread Is an example of why I turned off the crew editable flight ID on both family ships, keeps dad from getting something goofed up.

How so? The crew editable flight id on my GTX-345R enabled me to fix a shop error. Why would your dad (or anyone) change it for no reason?

 

[bnt83]

How so? The crew editable flight id on my GTX-345R enabled me to fix a shop error. Why would your dad (or anyone) change it for no reason?

Because I know what it is and how to set it and he doesn’t. I’m not even sure he could explain what flight ID is, nor does he need to know or use it.

Simple, competent tech sets it correctly then turns crew edit capability off.

That being said the last plane he purchased it was set incorrectly, missing the N. Either the owner or installer goofed it.

 

[azure]

Because I know what it is and how to set it and he doesn’t. I’m not even sure he could explain what flight ID is, nor does he need to know or use it.

In that case he shouldn't be messing with it. Why would he mess with something he knows that he doesn't understand?

 

[bnt83]

In that case he shouldn't be messing with it. Why would he mess with something he knows that he doesn't understand?

Hence crew editing disabled

 

[azure]

Hence crew editing disabled

Ok it's really none of my business, but if another pilot with access to my plane (even a family member) had a history of mucking things up by changing things he doesn't know anything about, I think I would have serious reservations about letting him fly the plane. But again, do whatever you feel you have to. Not my business.

FWIW with the CNX-80 it would be pretty hard to make that kind of change accidentally, you have to go into the XPDR menu, press the Flight ID soft key, and then use the knobs to change the values AND hit Enter when you're done, or the change won't take effect. It's not likely someone would do that accidentally when just trying to set the squawk code. I'm pretty sure the shop was using the Garmin install tool and just got the fields mixed up.