Grumman Options

PilotRPI

PilotRPI

Line Up and Wait
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PilotRPI
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1B9 - Mansfield, MA
Thinking about options for the future after my IFR is done. Right now I fly 95kts at 7gph, and want something a bit more capable for traveling. Two light people 95% of the time, room for two folding bikes is a must. I'm thinking Grumman Travelers, Cheetahs, or Tigers might be a nice step up, especially a Tiger. Anyone have real world experience on speed and fuel burn? The sliding canopy should make loading bikes a breeze as well. 95kts with a 20kt headwind is really not fun when trying to get somewhere.
 
Yesterday flying KVJI to KBHB: averaged about 117-121K IAS at 9.5gph with MP 23, prop 2300 (MT CS prop). So was loafing along. With a bit of tail wind made that trip in about 6.5.
You'll love the luggage space w rear seats flat.
<edit: in a Tiger BTW>
 
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PilotRPI said:
Thinking about options for the future after my IFR is done. Right now I fly 95kts at 7gph, and want something a bit more capable for traveling. Two light people 95% of the time, room for two folding bikes is a must. I'm thinking Grumman Travelers, Cheetahs, or Tigers might be a nice step up, especially a Tiger. Anyone have real world experience on speed and fuel burn? The sliding canopy should make loading bikes a breeze as well. 95kts with a 20kt headwind is really not fun when trying to get somewhere.
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Never mind. You did not mention the Yankee.
 
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In a Traveler, Cheetah or Tiger there’s plenty of room for bikes with the back seat folded down station-wagon style.

For a Traveler or Cheetah I recommend the Bill Scott high-compression STC. It essentially makes it a 160 hp engine, but for certification purposes it’s limited to 157 hp (2650 rpm). It’s a noticeable difference in takeoff and climb over the stock 150 hp engine.

My Cheetah, with the STC, got about 120-122 KTAS at a bit under 8 gph.
 
I don't have a lot of experience in the 4 seat variety. I will say that while the sliding canopy and folding back seats can swallow a bunch of luggage, it's not the easiest to load or unload. They are hard to beat for comfort and versatility and ease of maintenance.
 
wrbix said:
Yesterday flying KVJI to KBHB: averaged about 117-121K IAS at 9.5gph with MP 23, prop 2300 (MT CS prop). So was loafing along. With a bit of tail wind made that trip in about 6.5.
You'll love the luggage space w rear seats flat.
<edit: in a Tiger BTW>
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Do Tigers typically have CS props?

And for all your Mooney/Bonanza people, a partnership in one of those is another consideration.
 
For my Tiger I flight planned 132kts @ 10gph.

Pretty sure my Traveler was in the 120’s at maybe 8gph, but that was a long time ago, so I might be off there.

A Cheetah would likely be somewhere in between.
 
Our Traveler runs 7.5-8gph 110-120mph. Love it. It's for sale too :)
On of the partners would put a folding bike in the back all the time.
 
If you can afford it go for the Tiger. Costs the same to maintain as a Cheetah/Traveler. The extra 20-30 HP makes an impressive difference. Usually better equipped as well.
 
I plan 130kts 10-10.5 gph could probably really get 9.5. In my tiger
 
muddy00 said:
I plan 130kts 10-10.5 gph could probably really get 9.5. In my tiger
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I recently sold a '77 Tiger. This is pretty much exactly what I was getting. I was flying out of high altitude airports (6000-7500 ft) most of the time. Under those conditions a Tiger is effectively a two seat aircraft. Things I really liked about the Tiger were the incredible view from the cockpit, the speed and mechanical simplicity, the very light and responsive controls, and the ability to slide the canopy back in flight for photography(and yes, there is a lot of room in the back with the rear seats folded. I agree with those who recommend the Tiger over the smaller engine Grummans, especially if you will be using higher altitude airports --you should easily get the price difference(between a Tiger and a Cheetah or Traveler) back when/if you sell, it will probably sell more quickly, plus you get to enjoy the extra performance...
 
I put my folding bike in the back of my Tiger. My bike breaks down small enough to get it in the cargo door (which is small) so that I don't even need to fold the back seats down. There is tons of room with the seats down, while totally doable , it can be a little awkward getting the bike in thru the canopy as you have to carefully step up onto the wing, bike in hand, or have somebody hand it to you once on the wing.
 
@wrbix can maybe give you his impressions?

I had the pleasure of riding along with him and his Tiger flys like a dream!
 
My traveler is pretty slooooow. Even with 160hp Maybe 105 kts. But it's fun as hell. And roomy. 880 useful load. You can def. put your bikes in the back
 
A Maule would work great if you can swing it. The cargo door would help a lot with the bikes.
 
RyanLikesFlying said:
@wrbix can maybe give you his impressions?

I had the pleasure of riding along with him and his Tiger flys like a dream!
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.....except for those traumatic landings!:eek: ;)
My quick summary in reply #2 above.
A great plane for PnP flights BTW.
 
The Tiger has a fixed pitch prop, so speed is determined by RPM. Fuel burn is determined by power output and RPM. For the best speed you need to be at the altitude that gives the maximum RPM for the power output you desire.

For me that altitude is 8,000 to 10,000 where full throttle will give a power setting between 65% and 70% of max horsepower. You will therefore be very close to 2700 RPM at 65% to 70% power, resulting in a true airspeed of around 135 Knots to 138 Knots. Fuel burn will normally be around 10 to 10.5 gph when leaned to about 50 deg rich of peak.

If you were to cruise at 6,000 feet you would have to reduce RPM to about 2600 RPM to cruise at 68% power which would result in a true airspeed of 132 Knots.

The Grumman Tiger is a great aircraft with cruise performance equal or better to a Piper Arrow and very close to that of a C model Mooney. All with a fixed pitch prop and fixed gear. But the best feature is the sliding canopy which can be opened in flight making those long climbs in the summer to cooler altitudes very comfortable.

The Tiger is a capable traveling machine. The aircraft holds 52 gallons of fuel which gives just over 5 hours of endurance to dry tanks at 10 gph. My useful load is a few pounds over 900.

My wife and I just flew from Norfolk Virginia to Tyler Texas today. 950 Nautical miles in one day with an average speed of 130 Knots including climb, while averaging 10.2 gph. Calm winds all day.

By the way, the back seats fold down flat with the baggage area resulting in a cargo area almost 7 feet long from the aft baggage bulkhead to the back of the front seats. Plenty of room I would think for bikes.
 
+1 on the Tiger speed (about 135 kts TAS) and fuel burn (just under 10gph) at 6500-9500 ft MSL leaned by the handbook. And the ability to carry 2 full sized bikes in the back with the rear seats folded down. One caution is that I need to load our bikes through the canopy opening and it takes a fair amount of strength to do that (or at least a fair amount of strength for my not particularly fit 67 year old body).
 
Seems like it would be a good alternative to a Mooney C. What kind of T/O performance do they have in terms of smooth grass strips. How short can u go? I like to fly into 2k ft grass strips often.
 
No experience w turf but does fine heavy when hot at KCDK (2355ft sea level).....Tigers generally have wheel pants tho
 
Isn't 135kts and 10gph about C182 speed?
 
TigerGene said:
For me that altitude is 8,000 to 10,000 where full throttle will give a power setting between 65% and 70% of max horsepower. You will therefore be very close to 2700 RPM at 65% to 70% power, resulting in a true airspeed of around 135 Knots to 138 Knots. Fuel burn will normally be around 10 to 10.5 gph when leaned to about 50 deg rich of peak.
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You really don't want to be running 50 Deg ROP. Bad juju.
 
Mooney sucks for grass. Well, not that bad, but they are short, so any bad bumper holes could be expensive. I don't know how one would get bicycles in the back of mine, but I have to admit I haven't tried. Not too fond of getting my greasy chain all over my nice leather interior.
 
UngaWunga said:
By what? 1/2 gph? 1gph? I know it adds up, but damn do you get a lot more capability with a 182.
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I think you're really looking at about 3gph more for the 182, which isn't insignificant. If you need to haul a lot of stuff the 182 makes sense, but otherwise the Tiger will fly as fast or faster on almost 30% less fuel, with some of the other additional advantages listed above (great handling, canopy that opens in flight, etc...). Don't get me wrong - I'm a huge fan of the 182 - but I feel like the Tiger serves a different kind of mission.
 
steingar said:
Mooney sucks for grass. Well, not that bad, but they are short, so any bad bumper holes could be expensive. I don't know how one would get bicycles in the back of mine, but I have to admit I haven't tried. Not too fond of getting my greasy chain all over my nice leather interior.
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My Mooney M20C stalls at roughly 57 mph (book speed, haven't checked closely). Still, if I'm on my game I should be able to land it in 2K feet. I've done 2.8 with room to spare. The problem comes because Mooneys are short legged. The gear is short, so there is very little prop clearance. Like I said, one gopher hole and you've got some expensive repairs.
 
Our tiger does roughly 10gph at 130-135TAS. Plenty of room in the back and a blast to fly. It's been relatively low-maintenance (for an airplane) and the canopy is a major plus.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My traveler is pretty slooooow. Even with 160hp Maybe 105 kts. But it's fun as hell. And roomy. 880 useful load. You can def. put your bikes in the back
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If you are only getting 105kts true airspeed, at 2650-2700 rpm, there is definitely something wrong. My Ex-cheetah saw 128 kts true, my current tiger, 135kts true.

What year is toy traveler? Do you have wheel pants and brake covers? Which prop? How many hrs on the engine/cylinders?
 
Wanna buy a Diamond?

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As much as I'd love a diamond, I have a feeling that is just a touch higher than the price range for a Tiger.
 
Kidding aside, for two bikes it's tight, but I think it would go if you got creative. I don't think that a Mooney is an option for a full-sized bike.

Bonanza will both fit fine. I know that Cirrus isn't on the radar, but it fits bikes well.
 
UngaWunga said:
By what? 1/2 gph? 1gph? I know it adds up, but damn do you get a lot more capability with a 182.
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130kts in a 182 is around 12-12.5 gal/hr. Depends on altitude and red knob usage.

Tiger also eliminates any constant speed prop $maint$.


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