Ground Instructor Validation Value

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apr911

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apr911
Following on to my post about the Florida FSDO's no longer validating Ground Instructor ratings and referring it out to DPE's...

I got quoted $100 to have a DPE validate my AGI/IGI/FOI results... I feel like that's kind of steep for 20-30 minutes of their time just to have them look at some paperwork... I'd travel to him and he'd be squeezing me in between 2 other checkrides so its not like I'm really asking him to take time out of his day/schedule since it would be downtime anyway...

I know somebody posted in my previous thread they paid $60 but were quoted $110 originally. I feel like $60 is reasonable.

Any thoughts on whether $100 is reasonable? What would you (the general POA audience) pay? Is it worth getting them validated?

I've heard that having your ground ratings issued can sometimes make the CFI checkride easier as it relates to FOI but considering I'll probably still have a temporary certificate and it'll show up in IACRA as only being 2-5 weeks since issuance, I'm guessing it probably wont do anything for me and I guess I could wait until I go for my CFI-initial and have the DPE validate them all at once for one fee.

Any other ground instructor's have thoughts on the value of getting them validated ahead of a CFI-Initial even if they aren't going to be used before then?
 
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Tell the FSDO, "No can do. Not paying $600/hour. Let me know when I can come in over the next 2 weeks." Then call your Rep.
 
Feel lucky the NTX FSDO gave me an fairly quick appointment.

And yes, I already have on my notes to NOT mention I know a local pilot who spells his name with a "y" instead of an "i".
 
Are you affiliated with a 141 school? If so check with you chief instructor about when an inspector is coming there and corner him into doing the certification while he is there.
 
apr911 said:
I've heard that having your ground ratings issued can sometimes make the CFI checkride easier
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If making your checkride easier is the goal, I would suggest studying more.

and I guess I could wait until I go for my CFI-initial and have the DPE validate them all at once for one fee.
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Unless you have already talked to the examiner about this, I wouldn't assume that he'll give you something that he normally charges for...they're different events.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If making your checkride easier is the goal, I would suggest studying more.
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Easier in that I dont get as many questions on FOI. Im a technical trainer in IT and aced the FOI exam but it was frustrating as all hell studying for due to having to relearn information the FAA way...

Principle of Primacy and all that... I plan to review FOI either way but anything that minimizes the emphasis on it will make the checkride “easier” in my mind and allow me to focus more on the flying and the relevat flight book knowledge required than to the FOI information.. I just dont want to get caught between terminology originally learned and FAA terminology.


MauleSkinner said:
Unless you have already talked to the examiner about this, I wouldn't assume that he'll give you something that he normally charges for...they're different events
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Fair point but seeing as how they will already be validating my identity, log book entries, entering FOI, completing an IACRA and issuing a temporary certificate, I would be absolutely shocked if they wanted $100 to look at 2 additional sheets of paper (one for AGI and one for IGI) and enter them into IACRA during completion of the checkride.

I suppose anything is possible but it would certainly appear to be even more of a stretch than paying $100 to have a special meeting with this DPE to have them issued.
 
apr911 said:
Easier in that I dont get as many questions on FOI. Im a technical trainer in IT and aced the FOI exam but it was frustrating as all hell studying for due to having to relearn information the FAA way...

Principle of Primacy and all that... I plan to review FOI either way but anything that minimizes the emphasis on it will make the checkride “easier” in my mind and allow me to focus more on the flying and the relevat flight book knowledge required than to the FOI information.. I just dont want to get caught between terminology originally learned and FAA terminology.
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I think you may have the wrong impression of any impact the ground instructor certificate will have on your oral.

Fair point but seeing as how they will already be validating my identity, log book entries, entering FOI, completing an IACRA and issuing a temporary certificate, I would be absolutely shocked if they wanted $100 to look at 2 additional sheets of paper (one for AGI and one for IGI) and enter them into IACRA during completion of the checkride.

I suppose anything is possible but it would certainly appear to be even more of a stretch than paying $100 to have a special meeting with this DPE to have them issued.
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I might be shocked as well, but I wouldn’t go into it assuming any reduction in fees unless the question is brought up prior.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I think you may have the wrong impression of any impact the ground instructor certificate will have on your oral.
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And that's pretty much the question that I am looking at. I've read other accounts online that have said their CFI-Initial DPE skimmed over the FOI material or didnt ask any FOI type questions ostensibly because they already had issued instructor ratings (though the only way to know for sure would be if the DPE's said that's why the skipped it).

I can see why they might, even though checkrides are technically cumulative, most DPE's seem to stick to what's relevant to the checkride being conducted and the new material contained therein. Since you already have an instructor ground rating locking in FOI, it makes the CFI-Initial checkride more like an add-on, especially as it relates to FOI and to a lesser extent large parts of the questions pertaining to ground... In other words, since you already have many of the privileges of a CFI really just lacking the flight portion, it allows the checkride to focus more clearly on the flight portion both in the oral and practical flight portion.
 
apr911 said:
And that's pretty much the question that I am looking at. I've read other accounts online that have said their CFI-Initial DPE skimmed over the FOI material or didnt ask any FOI type questions ostensibly because they already had issued instructor ratings (though the only way to know for sure would be if the DPE's said that's why the skipped it).

I can see why they might, even though checkrides are technically cumulative, most DPE's seem to stick to what's relevant to the checkride being conducted and the new material contained therein. Since you already have an instructor ground rating locking in FOI, it makes the CFI-Initial checkride more like an add-on, especially as it relates to FOI and to a lesser extent large parts of the questions pertaining to ground... In other words, since you already have many of the privileges of a CFI really just lacking the flight portion, it allows the checkride to focus more clearly on the flight portion both in the oral and practical flight portion.
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A written test does not replace an oral exam or portion thereof. I'd suggest more time studying the ACS.
 
I get that. I dont expect it to replace the oral exam nor am I asking it to but it does have an effect that is poorly understood and varies from examiner to examiner... Just as someone asked today "what effect does acing the written have on the oral." Some examiner's see that as I dont need to probe that far or deep but to others, its more like waving a red flag at a bull and they're going to probe until they find the limit...

Of course the reputation of the CFI-Initial as a grueling checkride with a low initial pass rate and the number of DPE's who still ascribe to the idea that it should be grueling and result in more 1st attempt disapprovals than not, is probably getting to me and making me more concerned about it than I really need to be.

Still I was reading about 2 DPE's in the area I am currently who failed candidates on things like not knowing how to create a custom waypoint and hold over that waypoint in their G430 or who gave a 61 year old CFI candidate with 16,000 hours a 5 hour oral and then had him do every single maneuver in the ACS and finally, despite complimenting the student on everything else including the oral knowledge, failed him because he forgot to put the prop forward on one landing and left the flaps down after takeoff doing the soft-field takeoff...

I also know of a DPE back home who failed a CFI-Initial candidate because the candidate did not have a lesson plan for a flight review... Something that every CFI I've talked to at 3 different flight schools shook their head at and said something to the effect of they dont have a lesson plan for a flight review as each one is different and practically impossible to plan for...It's all a matter of just how rusty the pilot is, what their experience is and what weaknesses or deficiencies you find probing their knowledge during the flight review, all of which are unknown to the CFI at the outset of the flight review (unless the CFI has already been working with the pilot on something though even then that just gives them a bunch of areas they can usually skip).
 
MauleSkinner said:
Yeah, don't you hate it when examiners fail applicants just because they don't meet standards. :rolleyes:
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An impossible to meet unknown "standard" as defined by the DPE and not the FAA? Yes, yes I do.

At least 1 of those examples has nothing to do with any standard of performance. How do you define a lesson plan for a lesson that by its very nature intended to be largely unstructured

The second, is by the strictest definition a fail because he wasn't 100% familiar with the equipment but it seems within an acceptable tolerance given most renters and probably quite a few owners probably have never have needed to use this feature and are unfamiliar with it. Dont have it in front of me but pretty sure the ACS says something to the effect of needing to be familiar with the general operation of your equipment. It does not say you need to know what every last button does or how to use every bell and whistle of anything no marked inoperative... This is particularly true for renters who usually dont have 100% consistency between airplanes and might not have time in that much time in front of the 430.

The third, the guy with the flaps and prop errors spent over 7 hours with the guy and made 2 mistakes. Yeah, he probably should have requested a discontinuance instead of fighting the fatigue and pushing through but I think most of us would find our performance degraded and mistakes being made after 7 hours of drilling. At least from the story I received third hand, it seemed the examiner could have offered some leeway too or shortened the oral or not required he go through every single maneuver (the ACS doesn't require it) or suggested a discontinuance himself...

The first guy there was no reason to fail. He gave the same answer pretty much every CFI I've asked say they would have given.
The second guy might be a technical fail but testing esoteric knowledge is not the intent of ACS and we all have a limit to our knowledge.
The third guy is the most questionable. He did indeed not perform to FAA standard but finding 2 flaws after nearly 8 hours and performing every other maneuver in the ACS speaks to a DPE setting their own standard and looking for any reason to fail a candidate. As my CSEL DPE put it,"I'm not looking for perfection, no body is perfect. I am just looking to see that you're safe, you're a good pilot who knows what they're doing, you meet the standards and know where and how to find the things you dont know."
 
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This thread is TL;DR but I can assure you with 100% certainty that the issuance of a ground instructor certificate will not change what is covered in the practical test. Your review of the PTS/ACS will confirm that. Anyone suggesting otherwise is BSkng you. "I read it in the internet" is a poor substitute for proper prep.

Think about it: an examiner knows the ground instructor certificate consists of passing essentially three same knowledge tests for a flight instructor certificate. ACS aside, why would they cut you any slack for taking an extra knowledge test?
 
Brad Z said:
This thread is TL;DR but I can assure you with 100% certainty that the issuance of a ground instructor certificate will not change what is covered in the practical test. Your review of the PTS/ACS will confirm that. Anyone suggesting otherwise is BSkng you. "I read it in the internet" is a poor substitute for proper prep.

Think about it: an examiner knows the ground instructor certificate consists of passing essentially three same knowledge tests for a flight instructor certificate. ACS aside, why would they cut you any slack for taking an extra knowledge test?
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Specifically, the slack I heard from others was regarding FOI. Since FOI is locked in by the ground instructor ratings, I guess some DPE's de-emphasis it as something to be covered in the oral. As I mentioned in another post, I am a technical trainer in IT and while I aced the FOI I found the prep frustrating as many things in the FOI inconsistent with my experience and training as an instructor in IT... Principle of Primacy and all of that, I expect FOI will fade relatively quickly back to just being a jumble of terms for me (a lot of it already has in the week since I've taken the exam).

In some ways, I actually want the test to be harder in the sense that I want it to be more focused on the portions pertaining to principles of flight, regulations, etc. I understand why FOI is covered in an initial instructor rating and I understand why it might not be if you look at the CFI-Initial as an "add-on" instructor rating. Being able to teach is something I know I am capable of and I know I can review the FOI stuff ahead of the oral but my hope was to de-emphasize FOI so I dont have to worry as much about the FAA terms and methods conflicting with my own.
 
apr911 said:
An impossible to meet unknown "standard" as defined by the DPE and not the FAA? Yes, yes I do.

At least 1 of those examples has nothing to do with any standard of performance. How do you define a lesson plan for a lesson that by its very nature intended to be largely unstructured

The second, is by the strictest definition a fail because he wasn't 100% familiar with the equipment but it seems within an acceptable tolerance given most renters and probably quite a few owners probably have never have needed to use this feature and are unfamiliar with it. Dont have it in front of me but pretty sure the ACS says something to the effect of needing to be familiar with the general operation of your equipment. It does not say you need to know what every last button does or how to use every bell and whistle of anything no marked inoperative... This is particularly true for renters who usually dont have 100% consistency between airplanes and might not have time in that much time in front of the 430.

The third, the guy with the flaps and prop errors spent over 7 hours with the guy and made 2 mistakes. Yeah, he probably should have requested a discontinuance instead of fighting the fatigue and pushing through but I think most of us would find our performance degraded and mistakes being made after 7 hours of drilling. At least from the story I received third hand, it seemed the examiner could have offered some leeway too or shortened the oral or not required he go through every single maneuver (the ACS doesn't require it) or suggested a discontinuance himself...

The first guy there was no reason to fail. He gave the same answer pretty much every CFI I've asked say they would have given.
The second guy might be a technical fail but testing esoteric knowledge is not the intent of ACS and we all have a limit to our knowledge.
The third guy is the most questionable. He did indeed not perform to FAA standard but finding 2 flaws after nearly 8 hours and performing every other maneuver in the ACS speaks to a DPE setting their own standard and looking for any reason to fail a candidate. As my CSEL DPE put it,"I'm not looking for perfection, no body is perfect. I am just looking to see that you're safe, you're a good pilot who knows what they're doing, you meet the standards and know where and how to find the things you dont know."
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The first guy could have built a lesson plan that outlined he requirements of 61.56, the qualification process, the need to establish appropriate parameters for the review, etc.

The second should understand that building a waypoint and a hold aren’t esoteric knowlege, but basics for IFR operation of avionics.

The third guy shouldn’t have exercised bad ADM if he was fatigued.

These are all legitimate busts. If you don’t agree, I’d suggest not taking the CFI ride.

Edit: I also find it interesting that you’re countering what you perceive as a lack of standards by giving an example that you claim should be unstructured, when the same ACSs/PTSs apply.
 
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apr911 said:
Specifically, the slack I heard from others was regarding FOI. Since FOI is locked in by the ground instructor ratings, I guess some DPE's de-emphasis it as something to be covered in the oral.
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What does that mean, "locked in"? There is no practical test for the ground instructor certificate. The FOI test that you took for the ground instructor is the same that you'd take for the flight instructor. In either case, no one has tested you on practical application of FOI. Anyone on the internet who says otherwise is BSing you. The only locking that the ground instructor certificate does is prevent you from having to take the FOI if it is about to expire. But to do so, you'd have to take a BGI, AGI, or IGI knowledge test as well. Doesn't seem like a very good trade-off.

apr911 said:
As I mentioned in another post, I am a technical trainer in IT and while I aced the FOI I found the prep frustrating as many things in the FOI inconsistent with my experience and training as an instructor in IT... Principle of Primacy and all of that, I expect FOI will fade relatively quickly back to just being a jumble of terms for me (a lot of it already has in the week since I've taken the exam).
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Most people ace the FOI. It's not a hard test. As to whether it's applicable for aviation instructional theory may be up for debate (except during the practical).

apr911 said:
In some ways, I actually want the test to be harder in the sense that I want it to be more focused on the portions pertaining to principles of flight, regulations, etc. I understand why FOI is covered in an initial instructor rating and I understand why it might not be if you look at the CFI-Initial as an "add-on" instructor rating. Being able to teach is something I know I am capable of and I know I can review the FOI stuff ahead of the oral but my hope was to de-emphasize FOI so I dont have to worry as much about the FAA terms and methods conflicting with my own.
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A flight instructor certificate (the FAA is moving away from using the term "CFI", even if it is included on the instructor's certificate number) is not a add-on to an instructor certificate. A ground instructor certificate is a separate piece of plastic. You don't even have to be a student pilot to get a ground instructor certificate. They are two totally different things, and there is no credit given in the ACS for having a ground instructor certificate. Aside from one minor paperwork requirement, the ground instructor certificate conveys absolutely NO additional privileges to a flight instructor.
 
Walboy said:
When I listen to reasons for checkride busts, frequently the person who fails displays the defense mechanism of projection. As a CFI candidate, the OP should know what that is.

I would venture to say there's never been a perfect checkride...some sort of error will be made. How the person being examined deals with the error and whether the person continues to make them is part of the evaluation process.
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You mean, for example, getting an answer wrong on the oral, and in further discussion the examiner points to the answer in the AFM and asks the applicant to read it, but he refuses? (Yes, it happened.)
 
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Brad Z said:
What does that mean, "locked in"?... ...The only locking that the ground instructor certificate does is prevent you from having to take the FOI if it is about to expire.
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That's what I meant by "locked" in. The outcome of a CFI (or CFI-I) checkride no chance of impacting an FOI in score in anyway shape or form. While technically speaking a checkride doesn't impact your written scores, there is a chance you may have to retake the exam if you get a disapproval as it does keep the clock running and could allow the FOI to expire.

Brad Z said:
A flight instructor certificate (the FAA is moving away from using the term "CFI", even if it is included on the instructor's certificate number) is not a add-on to an instructor certificate. A ground instructor certificate is a separate piece of plastic. You don't even have to be a student pilot to get a ground instructor certificate. They are two totally different things, and there is no credit given in the ACS for having a ground instructor certificate. Aside from one minor paperwork requirement, the ground instructor certificate conveys absolutely NO additional privileges to a flight instructor.
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I understand that it's not actually an add-on and that no credit is given in the PTS but there is still a lot of space left in the margins as there are quite a few qualitative elements to a checkride; from the selection of which questions to ask and how many to the acceptance of an answer given as meeting standard.

When it comes to those qualitative elements, other considerations come into play such as experience as an instructor. Just like any job interview. If I'm looking at a successful educator with 15 years experience versus someone who's never taught a student a day in their life, which one do you think is going to get grilled harder on how to instruct vs the topic of instruction? While I do have several years of IT instructing behind me, IT instructing does not come with or require any formal teaching certification which is why I had to do FOI so aside from my word, I dont have anything that really says "this person can teach."

I realize of course that a ground instructor rating doesn't necessarily automatically suggest this but it is at least a bonafide credential. As I noted in my original post I'm guessing it probably wont do anything for me since I'll likely still be on a temporary cert, it will show up in IACRA as having been issued only a few weeks ago and I dont have any successful students I can point to backup the credential.
 
apr911 said:
As I noted in my original post I'm guessing it probably wont do anything for me
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As noted in nearly every reply above, your “guess” on this is correct. However...
since I'll likely still be on a temporary cert, it will show up in IACRA as having been issued only a few weeks ago and I dont have any successful students I can point to backup the credential.
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Your reasoning is incorrect.
 
apr911 said:
That's what I meant by "locked" in. The outcome of a CFI (or CFI-I) checkride no chance of impacting an FOI in score in anyway shape or form. While technically speaking a checkride doesn't impact your written scores, there is a chance you may have to retake the exam if you get a disapproval as it does keep the clock running and could allow the FOI to expire.



I understand that it's not actually an add-on and that no credit is given in the PTS but there is still a lot of space left in the margins as there are quite a few qualitative elements to a checkride; from the selection of which questions to ask and how many to the acceptance of an answer given as meeting standard.

When it comes to those qualitative elements, other considerations come into play such as experience as an instructor. Just like any job interview. If I'm looking at a successful educator with 15 years experience versus someone who's never taught a student a day in their life, which one do you think is going to get grilled harder on how to instruct vs the topic of instruction? While I do have several years of IT instructing behind me, IT instructing does not come with or require any formal teaching certification which is why I had to do FOI so aside from my word, I dont have anything that really says "this person can teach."

I realize of course that a ground instructor rating doesn't necessarily automatically suggest this but it is at least a bonafide credential. As I noted in my original post I'm guessing it probably wont do anything for me since I'll likely still be on a temporary cert, it will show up in IACRA as having been issued only a few weeks ago and I dont have any successful students I can point to backup the credential.
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If anything, by "locking in" your FOI by getting a ground instructor certificate, the examiner may assume you barely passed the FOI and wanted to bury the results. If you show up with your FOI results to your flight instructor practical test, the examiner may see that you aced it, and take that into consideration when going over certain knowledge areas of the "fundamentals of instructing" area of operation in the PTS.

Regarding employers, the only employer who may be impressed with a ground instructor certificate is someone who's not familiar with what a ground instructor certificate is. If that's the case, no harm in padding your resume, I guess, but if you were looking for a flying job potential employers wouldn't really care.
 
Any examiner that puts any trust in the FOI being an indication of anything should be terminated to begin with. The FOI is the biggest piece of bovine excrement the FAA has ever concocted. It's well that they exempt professional teachers from having to take it. It discourages the amount of stomach emptying when someone who is trained in education has to regurgitate the FAA's strange idea of educational theory. It's even worse than the FAAs deluded ideas of physics.
 
Brad Z said:
Regarding employers, the only employer who may be impressed with a ground instructor certificate is someone who's not familiar with what a ground instructor certificate is. If that's the case, no harm in padding your resume, I guess, but if you were looking for a flying job potential employers wouldn't really care.
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You read my comment about a job interview/interview too literally, it was more of an analogy... A DPE conducting a checkride is like a interviewer conducting a job interview; both will ask questions, both will ask questions based on their perceptions of the candidate and the candidate's history.
 
apr911 said:
You read my comment about a job interview/interview too literally, it was more of an analogy... A DPE conducting a checkride is like a interviewer conducting a job interview; both will ask questions, both will ask questions based on their perceptions of the candidate and the candidate's history.
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Based on what I’ve seen here, I would say your expectations might cause you more grief with the DPE than his perception of your history.
 
FWIW, a friend of mine recently got his CFI. He’s had the AGI/IGI for a couple years and he said the hardest part of his CFI oral was FOI cause it had been so long since he studied it.
 
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